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Old 09-22-2017, 07:13 AM   #1
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People who have not heard of bahahullah?

What happens to people who have not heard of bahahullah? I heard a quote from abdul baha saying you can be a bahai without knowing of bahahullah .. but the opening passage from the kitab i aqdas says who has failed to recognise the prophet has gone astray.
'Whoso achieveth this duty
hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed'

Does the bahai faith come into anyones path who is earenstly seeking the truth? My mum is a very good person and very happy and has not heard of the bahai faith she seems to be following all the commandments instinctively she even does all the prayers and fasts but the islamic way .. i mean is there even a dfifference after all? The people who die without hearing of the bahai faith is it fair that they may be in certain conditions in the next life ?

The only answers I have are the god makes the bahai faith known to the earenst seekers. But my mum seems to be living in peace without knowing the bahai faith so im confused
 
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:50 AM   #2
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Of possible use to your question, the Kitab-i-Iqan by Baha'u'llah, pg 20-22

Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qurn both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muḥammad, Himself, declared: I am Jesus. He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muḥammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: I go away and come again unto you. Consider the sun. Were it to say now, I am the sun of yesterday, it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.

Here we read that every single Manifestation can be considered the same. So, for example, a man who has never heard of Baha'u'llah but who follows the teachings of, say, Zoroaster, could in a sense be said to have recognized Baha'u'llah in Zoraoaster. One can recognize Muhammad in Jesus. One can recognize the Bab in Moses.

If we look at the full context of the first verse of the Kitab-i-Aqdas:

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

I find it interesting that it doesn't explicitely name Baha'u'llah, but states that the first duty is the recognition "of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Whorepresenteth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation." Now yes, that description does fit Baha'u'llah, but does it not also fit the Bab, Muhammad, Jesus, Gautama, Moses, Zoroaster, Abraham, and Krishna??

Thus, wouldn't the recognition of any of God's Manifestations technically fulfill this primary requirement??
 
Old 09-22-2017, 01:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
What happens to people who have not heard of bahahullah? I heard a quote from abdul baha saying you can be a bahai without knowing of bahahullah .. but the opening passage from the kitab i aqdas says who has failed to recognise the prophet has gone astray.
'Whoso achieveth this duty
hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed'

Does the bahai faith come into anyones path who is earenstly seeking the truth? My mum is a very good person and very happy and has not heard of the bahai faith she seems to be following all the commandments instinctively she even does all the prayers and fasts but the islamic way .. i mean is there even a dfifference after all? The people who die without hearing of the bahai faith is it fair that they may be in certain conditions in the next life ?

The only answers I have are the god makes the bahai faith known to the earenst seekers. But my mum seems to be living in peace without knowing the bahai faith so im confused
Shoghi Effendi has said that those ignorant of the Baha'i Faith are not liable for not recognizing Baha'u'llah.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 01:10 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Of possible use to your question, the Kitab-i-Iqan by Baha'u'llah, pg 20-22

Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qurn both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muḥammad, Himself, declared: I am Jesus. He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muḥammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: I go away and come again unto you. Consider the sun. Were it to say now, I am the sun of yesterday, it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.

Here we read that every single Manifestation can be considered the same. So, for example, a man who has never heard of Baha'u'llah but who follows the teachings of, say, Zoroaster, could in a sense be said to have recognized Baha'u'llah in Zoraoaster. One can recognize Muhammad in Jesus. One can recognize the Bab in Moses.

If we look at the full context of the first verse of the Kitab-i-Aqdas:

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

I find it interesting that it doesn't explicitely name Baha'u'llah, but states that the first duty is the recognition "of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Whorepresenteth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation." Now yes, that description does fit Baha'u'llah, but does it not also fit the Bab, Muhammad, Jesus, Gautama, Moses, Zoroaster, Abraham, and Krishna??

Thus, wouldn't the recognition of any of God's Manifestations technically fulfill this primary requirement??
That's only one quote. Elsewhere Baha'u'llah makes clear that if you have a good chance to recognize Baha'u'llah they are liable for it. Many however don't know about Baha'u'llah or only heard the name are not liable for it as Shoghi Effendi says.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 02:05 PM   #5
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What does being liable even mean? Bahahullah teachings are not even in Urdu how can they reach people in Pakistan? Can we also assume gods mercy is on those who have not recognised bahahullah ? They receive answers from spirit if so what is even the purpose of a revelation? Or can we assume that people should be seeking to find bahahullah but I mean it's not even available in certain languages ?
 
Old 09-22-2017, 02:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
That's only one quote. Elsewhere Baha'u'llah makes clear that if you have a good chance to recognize Baha'u'llah they are liable for it. Many however don't know about Baha'u'llah or only heard the name are not liable for it as Shoghi Effendi says.
Can you state where bahahullah says that if u have a good chance u r liable?
 
Old 09-22-2017, 02:23 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Of possible use to your question, the Kitab-i-Iqan by Baha'u'llah, pg 20-22

Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qurn both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muḥammad, Himself, declared: I am Jesus. He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muḥammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: I go away and come again unto you. Consider the sun. Were it to say now, I am the sun of yesterday, it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.

Here we read that every single Manifestation can be considered the same. So, for example, a man who has never heard of Baha'u'llah but who follows the teachings of, say, Zoroaster, could in a sense be said to have recognized Baha'u'llah in Zoraoaster. One can recognize Muhammad in Jesus. One can recognize the Bab in Moses.

If we look at the full context of the first verse of the Kitab-i-Aqdas:

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

I find it interesting that it doesn't explicitely name Baha'u'llah, but states that the first duty is the recognition "of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Whorepresenteth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation." Now yes, that description does fit Baha'u'llah, but does it not also fit the Bab, Muhammad, Jesus, Gautama, Moses, Zoroaster, Abraham, and Krishna??

Thus, wouldn't the recognition of any of God's Manifestations technically fulfill this primary requirement??
I understand that so what's the purpose of a new prophet and whatever your answer is to that wb the people who have not heard of him or it's not in their language they are missing out on it?
 
Old 09-22-2017, 05:22 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
Shoghi Effendi has said that those ignorant of the Baha'i Faith are not liable for not recognizing Baha'u'llah.
Also, Abdu'l-Baha explained that those who are of a good character even though they have not recognized Baha'u'llah are deserving of the mercy of God:

Bahá' Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Page 238

Question.It is said in the Kitb-i-Aqdas whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. What is the meaning of this verse?
Answer.This blessed verse means that the foundation of success and salvation is the knowledge of God, and that the results of the knowledge of God are the good actions which are the fruits of faith.
If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect. This verse does not mean that the souls separated from God are equal, whether they perform good or bad actions. It signifies only that the foundation is to know God, and the good actions result from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that between the good, the sinners and the wicked who are veiled from God there is a difference. For the veiled one who has good principles and character deserves the pardon of God, while he who is a sinner, and has bad qualities and character, is deprived of the bounties and blessings of God. Herein lies the difference.
Therefore, the blessed verse means that good actions alone, without the knowledge of God, cannot be the cause of eternal salvation, everlasting success, and prosperity, and entrance into the Kingdom of God.
 
Old 09-23-2017, 08:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
Can you state where bahahullah says that if u have a good chance u r liable?
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 211)
 
Old 09-23-2017, 06:54 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 211)
Thanks but I was more inquiring about if he had said something like 'Baha'u'llah makes clear that if you have a good chance to recognize Baha'u'llah they are liable for it'
 
Old 09-23-2017, 06:55 PM   #11
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Still interested what god makes of people in Pakistan who have no way of knowing of bahahullah as no scriptures are in URDU? Does god have mercy on people who have know way of finding bahahullah?
 
Old 09-24-2017, 01:17 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
Shoghi Effendi has said that those ignorant of the Baha'i Faith are not liable for not recognizing Baha'u'llah.
So does that mean that those who have heard of Baha'u'llah ARE liable?

If that is true, there are going to a lot of liable nonbelievers and Christians, given how many I have told, over and over and over.
 
Old 09-24-2017, 04:49 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
So does that mean that those who have heard of Baha'u'llah ARE liable?

If that is true, there are going to a lot of liable nonbelievers and Christians, given how many I have told, over and over and over.
This reminds me of a Christian view that I have frequently encountered, which states that whoever doesn't accept Christian teachings after hearing about them will go to hell. I find it a refreshing change of pace that most Baha'is don't adhere to similar views of exclusivity about their own revelation.

I too, however, have wondered about the first paragraph of the Kitab-i-Aqdas and its implications. I have always read it as, "Believe in Baha'u'llah, or else!" It is interesting to hear different views...
 
Old 09-24-2017, 07:16 AM   #14
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The truth is the truth

I'm not concerned with people being liable after hearing of bahahullah you know why? It clearly says in the writings how this is the path to being a perfect human and service to the world if your not intrested in that your creating hell for others (in various degrees) I'm concerned what's happening to people who have no way of hearing of bahahullah
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:39 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
That's only one quote. Elsewhere Baha'u'llah makes clear that if you have a good chance to recognize Baha'u'llah they are liable for it. Many however don't know about Baha'u'llah or only heard the name are not liable for it as Shoghi Effendi says.
Interesting, do you have those quotes??

Also, even then, it doesn't change the fact that a central part of the Iqan is how each manifestation can be found in the others.
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
I understand that so what's the purpose of a new prophet
More information to help survive the current times and develop spiritually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
and whatever your answer is to that wb the people who have not heard of him or it's not in their language they are missing out on it?
Yes, they'd be missing out on it.

And as not all the texts are in English yet, I'm missing out on those ones too.

But that's more of a problem of human language, and apparently there's going to be a future world unifying auxiliary language, so that will solve the problem eventually.
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:53 AM   #17
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I'm not concerned with people being liable after hearing of bahahullah you know why? It clearly says in the writings how this is the path to being a perfect human and service to the world if your not intrested in that your creating hell for others (in various degrees) I'm concerned what's happening to people who have no way of hearing of bahahullah
For that answer, turn to the Quran 2:286

"God does not charge a soul except (with that within) its capacity. It will have (the consequence of) what (good) it has gained, and it will bear (the consequence of) what (evil) it has earned. 'Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people.'"

As we see here, people are only judged within their capacity. That means if someone does not learn one of Baha'u'llah's teachings, or even if we forget a teaching that we learned, we are not judged on the basis of that.

And since the verse does not deal with Law but Metaphysics, even though this is Quranic it cannot be abrogated.
 
Old 09-26-2017, 02:54 PM   #18
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Thanks !
 
Old 09-26-2017, 04:07 PM   #19
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Interesting ...

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 211)

So how does one actually take this ? My mum refuses to believe in another prophet after mohammad yet is a very good human and seems to be very happy all the time helping others ! And is a very devoted muslim. The above quote would suggest God is not in good terms with her ? Abdul baha says those without knowledge of God cannot reach kingdom of God as stated in an above quote ? Now can we receive knowledge of God from other religions but still reject bahahullah and still receive mercy of Allah? Bahahullah talks a lot about the learned people of his time rejecting him and therefore rejecting God? The question is how much of an importance is it it to accept bahahullah to receive gods mercy because bahahullahs message is not even in lots of languages does that mean past religions contains enough information?
 
Old 09-27-2017, 08:04 AM   #20
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Yousef,

I'm not suggesting that your mom is going to hell. I'm sure she'll be okay. But she won't have the bounty of being a Baha'i. Did you know that relatives have a special deal of being partially part of the Abha kingdom?

Last edited by Duane; 09-27-2017 at 08:08 AM.
 
Old 09-27-2017, 08:52 AM   #21
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Yousef,

I'm not suggesting that your mom is going to hell. I'm sure she'll be okay. But she won't have the bounty of being a Baha'i. Did you know that relatives have a special deal of being partially part of the Abha kingdom?
What do you mean by a deal? I'm guessing being amongst a true Baha'i will be a gift for them?
 
Old 09-27-2017, 11:06 AM   #22
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Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 211)
Note that you have to turn towards something before one can turn away from it.

I would say this verse points more towards apostasy (having once believed but then turning away) rather than infidelity (having not believed in the first place).
 
Old 09-27-2017, 01:30 PM   #23
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Note that you have to turn towards something before one can turn away from it.

I would say this verse points more towards apostasy (having once believed but then turning away) rather than infidelity (having not believed in the first place).
One can turn away by not actively searching and seeking to I think. One can turn away like my mum for when she hears about it and does not inquire that's also turning away
 
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