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Old 10-10-2017, 03:20 AM   #1
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Exclamation Bab's Laws

In Abdul Baha's book, Makatib (Page 266), He talks about the gist and core of the religions of the past. He first talks about the core of the teachings of Moses. Then comes to Jesus and says the gist of His religion was brotherhood and kindness. The Comes to Mohammad and says the gist of His religion was abandoning and breaking of all idols. Now, Abdul Baha reaches the time of Bab and says (my own translation because I could not find the English translation):
The core of the teachings of Bab is and the main subject was to "beheading","burning of books", and"killing of all those who are not Babis".

Now I was watching a new documentary movie recently made by a Bahai woman and then after it came the critic, who is a Muslim and very critical of Bahais. He is very famous in Iran for his strong critical views towards the faith. he said something which made me send a question here. I hope you can help me answer it.

first of all, how is it that a religion of God, which is to reach equality, kindness and brotherhood, must start with "beheading and killing and setting to fire?" maybe it is not such a critical point because even in Shia Islam, Muslims believe that when Mahdi (Qaim) comes, He will kill so many Muslim Mollas that streams of blood will start to flow in the streets. but why?

now the more important question is this:
everywhere in Bahai historical data, like in Dawn Breakers, there is the talk about a small group of "extreme" Babais who decided to Kill the Shah of Iran in that time (Naserredin Shah), and they commit an unsuccessful attack. everywhere in the hostorical data, and even by Bahaullah Himself, they are called "Babi extremists" but is what they did really extreme??? in fact, they really only listened to what Bab had ordered, and since the Bahai faith was not yet born, they were right to do that, according to the teachings of the Bab!
I wonder why this FACT is always altered in Bahai data, and why Bahaullah calls them "Babi extremists". I would really be thankful if anyone can answer me, tho maybe, only those who are more into history can give me the answer.

Last edited by maryamr; 10-10-2017 at 11:18 AM.
 
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:17 AM   #2
Jcc
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Maryam,

There are a lot of pieces to this story, and a lot of misunderstanding. First, if you describe the Bab's laws as "cutting off heads and burning books" that is a description from prophecies of Islam, where a final battle between believers and non-believers will take place. The Bab actually tried to show that it is really a spiritual battle, and that it should be done in a way as to not actually harm anyone. Which means, if you were to take it literally, then it is a law that could never be enforced. Many of the Bab's laws are written in such a way that they could never be enforced, because He knew they would soon be replaced by the laws of "Him whom God shall make manifest"

As far as the two Babis who tried to kill the Shah, they were not a "group" they were just 2 foolish and probably mentally sick people. The Bab never commanded anyone to kill, and the times when the Babis defended themselves, like at Tabarsi, it was self defense, not attack or revenge. Later Baha'u'llah taught that they should not even organize self defense and the Islamic law of Jihad is definitely ended.
 
Old 10-10-2017, 04:30 AM   #3
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Dear JCC
thanks for your reply. I hope you do not mind me taking an opposition, because I really want this topic to get solved and closed in my mind. so I'll start:

first of all, you say the Bab's law which was to "behead, kill, and fire" is spiritual. but what is your clue for saying it? just because there wasn't enough time for those laws to actually take place in the society? that is not a good answer. there was enough time, and in fact with those laws, and enough followers, a big society can be ruined in one year, let alone seven years.

Second, Abdul Baha in His book confirms that they were the CORE of the religion on Bab. when He talks about the religion of Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad, He (Abdul Baha) talks literally and without the use of symbols etc. so how come that suddenly in case of Bab's religion, He counts the SPIRITUAL laws without ever mentioning that they were ONLY spiritual?!!!

third, you say those people who tried to assassin the Shah were two. first of all I should say that they were not two, but three. and yes, in appearance they were only three, but what theology was behind them? how did they take that decision? Bab's law had given them the green light. Tahere, used to teach Ghayum Al'Asma (Commentary on the Surat Al-Yusuf) to her students that were Babis and even in that book (Commentary...) it is ordered again and again to kill non Babis and somewhere the Bab even says "And Do not accept money from them in exchange for their lives." is that what (you think) is a SPIRITUAL law??? this, to me, shows that after trying to act according to this law, some people will get so frightened that they will offer money to save their lives. it is NOT spiritual dear JCC.
 
Old 10-10-2017, 08:29 AM   #4
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Greetings everyone.

I am just a guy who read the Bayan and some other of the Bab's writings (I'm reading the Qayyum al-Asma right now : Qayyūm al-asmā' - Translations | Hurqalya Publications: Center for Shaykhī and Bābī-Bahā€™ī Studies).

As far as i can tell, the Bayan prohibits bloodhsed for the reason that the believers may want to kill Hiw whom God shall Manifest. Henceforth, he protects Him through a system of laws where people can only be punished through fines and forced abstinence. Killing, hurting, or imprisonning anyone (even in their own house, even for a few seconds) is, as per the Bayanic law, strictly forbidden. Animals and children, unbelievers and believers as well, cannot be hit for instance. That is in the Bayan, but you may ask some Bayanis, as they have some website and e-mail adress.

In the Bayan, unbelievers are forbidden from inhabiting 5 Persian provinces, and they are to be converted, but there are conditions :
_the people must have been taught of the Bayan (that's a long process)
_Bayanis must be the majority in the city/village before starting this process
_no violence can be used

I assume that the text from Tahirih that you quote actually refers to a pre-Bayanic tablet. You need to ask for the context of that scripture.

In the way i understand it through my spiritual experience of the Bab's writings, the core of the Bayanic religion is to be a talisman that kindles and enhances love for Baha'u'llah, and provides guidance on how to become a better Baha'i. It is a spirituality that focuses on esotericism and good manners. Therefore i do not yet understand the Master's reflection on the Bab's religion.

Here we need to be precise and articulate. In which scriptures does the Bab refer to violence, what is the context, and do they predate the Bayan ?

-Goaforce

EDIT : I think i remember Baha'u'llah remember to the Bayanic principle of non-violence in some tablet addressed to Babis who threatened his life, arguing that such thing was forbidden in their book. Does someone remember that ?

Last edited by GoaForce; 10-10-2017 at 08:31 AM.
 
Old 10-10-2017, 10:38 AM   #5
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Thank you GoaForce for the answer.
first of all, I took a loot at the link of Bab's book you have provided here. it is complete on some works and absolutely in complete on others.
as an example, on Surah 98 (Surah al-Jahad which means SUrah of war) we have:

" یا جنود الحقّ اذا وقفتم علی الحرب مع المشرکین لن تخافوا عن کثرتهم فانّا قد کتبناعلی قلوبهم الرّعب عنکم اقتلوا المشرکین و لا تذروا علی الارض بالحقّ علی الحقّ من الکافرین دیّاراً"

that means (my translation): Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth."

or in Surah 97 Surah Al-ghetal (SUrah of killing in fight) we have:

"یا معشرالمومنین فسخرو البلاد و اهلها لدین الله الخالص و لا تقبلو من الکفار جزیة ..."
that means: Oh Believers! Take and occupy every city and its inhabitants for God's religion and do not accept from them a money in exchange ..."

there are more of such examples in Qayum Al-Asma. but they do not exist in your link or if they do, I do not know how to look at them for example in your link when I open SUrah Al-Ghetal, there is only one line in it while it is in fact a long SUrah.

Anyway, Even Abdul Baha has talked about the core of Babi religion and has introduced it as "Killing, beheading and setting to fire."
so can we say when those three Babis decided on killing the Shah, it was their own decision and not out of Bab's laws?? how can you say it?

..............
P.S: Furthermore the man I listened to said that the book Qayum Al-Asma had been translated into Persian by Tahire and she had been teaching it to her students according to some Bahai and Bayani historians. So, if she had translated the whole book into Persian, why nowadays we do not have it? why the Universal House of Justice doesn't publish it all?!

Last edited by maryamr; 10-10-2017 at 10:46 AM.
 
Old 10-10-2017, 10:42 AM   #6
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Thanks GoaForce!! I did some digging on this topic but wanted to wait for someone who has read the Bayan to weigh in before I commented (also, tangentially, would you know of any complete English translations of the work?? Probably not, but I figure there's no harm in asking, since I'm always on the lookout for that sort of thing ).

Maryamr, I've done some digging on the topic of the Makatib. It's, for starters, not a book written by 'Abdu'l-Baha, but is apparently multiple books made up of a bunch of letters he wrote (the specific letter you cite being apparently in Volume 2). Further, I can only find references to the part you are talking about in specifically anti-Baha'i publications.

Do you (or does anyone else here for that matter) have full access to the Makatib in its original language, and, if so, can you verify that the relevant passage is in it?? There doesn't appear to be anything like a full English translation available anywhere online, so I can't dig past simply getting a vague idea of what the Makatib is.

Secondly, does anyone here know more information about this book?? For example, how the letters were gathered and compiled, and how the letters specifically were verified as having been written by 'Abdu'l-Baha?? And also who compiled this book?? It'd be interesting to know how authoritative this text can be considered.

If as GoaForce says, the Bayan is not as the quote describes, then I'd have to say that either 'Abdu'l-Baha is wrong here (is his Ismah only supposed to cover Baha'u'llah's revelation, or the Bab's as well??) or perhaps he did not write it (hence my questions about this book, its composition, verification process, and authority). Any information anyone can offer on the subject of the Makatib 'Abd al-Bah would be appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr
Tahere, used to teach Ghayum Al'Asma (Commentary on the Surat Al-Yusuf) to her students that were Babis and even in that book (Commentary...) it is ordered again and again to kill non Babis and somewhere the Bab even says "And Do not accept money from them in exchange for their lives."
Edit: I've only been able to find exerpts of the Ghayum Al'Asma. Do you know of where, specifically, in chapter and verse this line supposedly is??

It's worth noting, though, that as this is a commentary on the Surah of Yusuf, that the text was written before the Bayan, and is thus not Bayanic law, but an interpretation of Quranic law.

Last edited by Walrus; 10-10-2017 at 10:47 AM.
 
Old 10-10-2017, 10:53 AM   #7
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Yes Walrus. Makatib (Letters) is an Authorized book, a compilation of the writings of Abdul Baha. it is AVAILABLE on Baha'i Reference Library: ضرت عبدا„ب‡اء
in Persian Language (original language) on the specific page I mentioned. so there is zero doubt about its credibility.

second, you say you read Qayum Alasma and found no laws on killing etc. I dare say you have only read one or two Surah of it like for example only the Surah al Yusuf. Qayum Al-Asma is a massive book, consisting of many Surah, and each Surah has manyyy lines. I cannot find it even in the link you have provided here. and I dare say it is not translated into Persian or English- it is still in original Arabic for some weird reasons.
 
Old 10-10-2017, 11:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
second, you say you read Qayum Alasma and found no laws on killing etc. I dare say you have only read one or two Surah of it like for example only the Surah al Yusuf. Qayum Al-Asma is a massive book, consisting of many Surah, and each Surah has manyyy lines. I cannot find it even in the link you have provided here. and I dare say it is not translated into Persian or English- it is still in original Arabic for some weird reasons.
Yeah... looks like I misread the beginning of my original link and it was only a chapter. I have edited my above post. Do you know the actual chapter and verse the line you cited can supposedly be found??
 
Old 10-10-2017, 11:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Yeah... looks like I misread the beginning of my original link and it was only a chapter. I have edited my above post. Do you know the actual chapter and verse the line you cited can supposedly be found??
yes. look under GoaForce reply. I have sent a reply in which there are two examples of the original lines, name of the Surahs and my translation of them.
 
Old 10-10-2017, 06:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
Dear JCC
thanks for your reply. I hope you do not mind me taking an opposition, because I really want this topic to get solved and closed in my mind. so I'll start:
This is a very important topic, although very difficult for many reasons. Despite the Bab's ministry being only 6 years, He produced a huge amount of writings, totally about 5 million words (equivalent to about 25,000 pages.) This is the calculation made by people at the Baha'i World Center who have been preserving, compiling and scanning/transcribing everything. With that amount of writings it is obviously impossible to summarize it in a few literalistic interpretations such as "behead, kill, and fire" as if it were a continuation of the concepts from the Torah and Qur'an about achieving victory in battle, especially since so much of the Bab's teachings were completely the opposite of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
first of all, you say the Bab's law which was to "behead, kill, and fire" is spiritual. but what is your clue for saying it? just because there wasn't enough time for those laws to actually take place in the society? that is not a good answer. there was enough time, and in fact with those laws, and enough followers, a big society can be ruined in one year, let alone seven years.
The actual point is not that the Bab intended to fulfill the Islamic prophecies literally, but rather it was to make people realize that the Last Day and Resurrection has occurred, and that the old religious laws and interpretations had ended. In other words, the Qur'an also must not be taken literally, especially prophecies of the Last Day. But not all of that is apparent from just the Qayyamu'l-Asma, it needs to be combined with later writings including the Persian Bayan and others, which taken together require us to follow a spiritual interpretation. That is because a literal interpretation makes no sense and can lead to absurd outcomes. Besides, if you look at the actual instructions He gave to his disciples you see He never told any of His followers to hurt anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
Second, Abdul Baha in His book confirms that they were the CORE of the religion on Bab. when He talks about the religion of Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad, He (Abdul Baha) talks literally and without the use of symbols etc. so how come that suddenly in case of Bab's religion, He counts the SPIRITUAL laws without ever mentioning that they were ONLY spiritual?!!!
When Abdu'l-Baha made a statement comparing the teachings of past religions with those of Baha'u'lah, he had a reason to do so, and that reason was not about describing the past religions, but rather to make a contrast and highlight how full of mercy, light and peace are the teachings of Baha'u'llah. It is presenting an outward aspect of some of the teachings of the Bab, for the rhetorical purpose of contrast, but not explaining why it has that outward appearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
third, you say those people who tried to assassin the Shah were two. first of all I should say that they were not two, but three. and yes, in appearance they were only three, but what theology was behind them? how did they take that decision? Bab's law had given them the green light. Tahere, used to teach Ghayum Al'Asma (Commentary on the Surat Al-Yusuf) to her students that were Babis and even in that book (Commentary...) it is ordered again and again to kill non Babis and somewhere the Bab even says "And Do not accept money from them in exchange for their lives." is that what (you think) is a SPIRITUAL law??? this, to me, shows that after trying to act according to this law, some people will get so frightened that they will offer money to save their lives. it is NOT spiritual dear JCC.
The decision of those who tried to assassinate the Shah was based on a lack of understanding of the Bab's teachings, and the foolishness of the people involved. The two young people mentioned as committing the crime in "God Passes By" (page 61) are Sadiq-i-Tabrizi, and Fathu'llah-i-Qumi, so who was the third person?

As far as the true meaning of the Qayyamu'l-Asma, we know that is is described as a commentary on the Surih of Joseph, a well known story also mentioned in the Torah. That has many deep spiritual meanings, and the Bab goes into great depth explaining many layers of meanings. It would be ridiculous to take just a few portions literally, unless done by people with a completely literal mind such as the Muslim clergy. So, it is probably a combination of the Muslim clergy misunderstanding the meaning, seeing something that looks to them like a terrible thing that shows how bad the Babis and Baha'is are and deciding to promote that as their proof.

Much of what I am saying about the Bab's writings are from Professor Nader Saidi in his book "Gate of the Heart" which goes to very great depth explaining the context and layers of symbolism of the Bab's writings. He explains that the "laws" which the Bab proclaimed in the early days intentionally used language and concepts similar to Islam, including war and fighting, so that people would not be so shocked at the difference of the new teachings and turn away. The Bab wrote:

Indeed observe how He Who representeth the origin of creation, He Who is the Exponent of the verse, 'I, in very truth, am God', identified Himself as the Gate [Bab] for the advent of the promised Q'im, a descendant of Muhammad, and in His first Book enjoined the observance of the laws of the Qur'n, so that the people might not be seized with perturbation by reason of a new Book and a new Revelation and might regard His Faith as similar to their own, perchance they would not turn away from the Truth and ignore the thing for which they had been called into being. (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 119)

So logically, if the Bab started by proclaiming concepts that appeared similar to those of Islam (with holy war, etc.) and that He introduced new teachings gradually so as not to frighten people, it is because the actual new teachings were very different from traditional Islam, in fact almost the opposite (equality of women, acceptance of all religions, peace among all nations).

After the first book (Qayyamu'l-Asma) the Bab gradually revealed that He is not only a Gate, not only the Qaim, but was a Manifestation of God, and further was preparing the way for "Him Whom God shall Make Manifest". In the Persian Bayan, the phrase "Him Whom God shall Make Manifest" appears more than 400 times, and it is completely clear that the whole purpose of the Bab's Revelation was to prepare the world for Baha'u'llah. He said "all of the Bayan is but a ring on the finger of Him Whom God shall Make Manifest".

Even for the few years where presumably the laws of the Bab should have been applicable, there were stipulations where they could not be enacted yet, and and in fact they never could be enacted. it becomes clear that the laws of the Bab were meant for their spiritual lessons, which force you to think, not blindly follow, and they were never actually intended to guide a society in a literal sense.

I hope this can calm your heart and help you see more clearly the difference between what opponents of the faith say and the reality.

Last edited by Jcc; 10-10-2017 at 08:18 PM.
 
Old 10-10-2017, 10:53 PM   #11
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Dear Jcc, you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcc View Post
it is obviously impossible to summarize it in a few literalistic interpretations such as "behead, kill, and fire" as if it were a continuation of the concepts from the Torah and Qur'an about achieving victory in battle
you must note that this is not what "I" said; ABdul Baha has said this. But you also said:

Quote:
When Abdu'l-Baha made a statement comparing the teachings of past religions with those of Baha'u'lah, he had a reason to do so, and that reason was not about describing the past religions, but rather to make a contrast and highlight how full of mercy, light and peace are the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
and I agree with this. He wanted to show how the Baha'i religion is full of light and love. but in doing so, He is mentioning something like "the core of the teaching of Jesus is brotherhood and forgiveness" and He doesn't mean it symbolically; it is literal. He also mentions the core of the teachings of Mohammad and Moses and none of them are meant symbolically. how comes that suddenly He uses a symbolic mention of Bab's laws?

and you say:
Quote:
The decision of those who tried to assassinate the Shah was based on a lack of understanding of the Bab's teachings,
but to me, the laws have allowed it. You cannot bring laws in a very symbolic way and expect that all people, specially those very illiterate and light headed people of Iran on those years could get the real meaning.

and you said:
Quote:
As far as the true meaning of the Qayyamu'l-Asma, we know that is is described as a commentary on the Surih of Joseph, a well known story also mentioned in the Torah.
Sorry, but NO! Qayyumu'l Asma is not just that. it is a big book consisting of more than 300 pages (or even more) and has around 100 Surah and each Surah is a big complete story. the Sura of Joseph is only ONE of the MANY. the controversies does not exist in Surah Joseph but on thos Surahs which are not translate into Persian or English yet.


Dear Jcc, your response, all in all, can be summarized (if I am not mistaken) in saying that Bab had meant all those to not be interpreted literally. I REALLY LOVE Bab. He is the first figure of the new religion I got familiar with and I have a GREAT respect for Him, no matter what anyone says. and I can accept that most of His teachings were symbolic, but logically speaking, there are no proofs to show that; it is just what we say. now if you can show me one or two lines from His teachings in which He has ABSOLUTELY and CLEARLY forbidden the killing of those who are not Babis, I will have some good evidence and clues to say that His other teachings (even tho they are a lot of lines) are meant symbolically.

........................
P.S: you wanted to know the names of the "THREE" people who tried to assassin Shah. here is what I read about it. in a Book named Tahere (mentioned in WikiPedia) written by Abbas Amanat, a very well known Bahai who has also a seat in Yale University, he says that on that day, there people, shoot the Shah with three bullets. then one of them got killed by the guardians of the Shah on the spot and the two others were arrested, tortured, and got killed after a few days.
........................................
Foot Note 2:
Let me also mention that the main reason I want to really delve deep into this subject and get logical answers with PROOFS is that I am living in a country in which such topics are the main barriers in the minds of those who first head about Bab and Bahaullah; these are the questions that we face most often from their part. we must have good answers for them from inside the books themselves, so that we can teach them the truth.
the man whom I listened to by chance yesterday, brought up this topic. He has the hard copy of the whole Qayumu'l Asma. imagine how many people who are going to get familiar with Bahai faith, will by chance get to that link and listen to him. we should have good proofs to say he is wrong.

Last edited by maryamr; 10-10-2017 at 11:07 PM.
 
Old 10-11-2017, 07:05 AM   #12
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So I’ve been doing as much research as I can on the Qayyum al-Asma' while being limited to the English language.


It’s a pretty ridiculous book!! (and that’s not meant as an insult but rather a compliment on just how impressively complex the composition of the whole text is).

The first thing to note is that, yes, it is more than a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. But it is still a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. Specifically every Surah of the Qayyum al-Asma' is a commentary on deeper meanings within the corresponding verse of the Surat al-Yusuf. So the first Surah is a commentary on the first verse, the second the second, the third the third, etc. But each chapter is also a commentary on other parts of the Quran, making it even more complex.

And then there’s the peculiar way this commentary is constructed. Basically the words of the Quran are interwoven with the Bab’s own words. Sometimes just short Quranic phrases are woven into a sentence the Bab writes, like in Qayyum al-Asma' 93:11 (one of the few examples I can find in English): “And verily God has preferred some of you over others with knowledge of the Remembrance. What, and do you deny God's blessing by lying? Indeed he is the truth from God which, in very truth, is now fulfilled.” (in this case the text underlined in this quote is directly from the Quran)

So to interpret any verse of the Qayyum al-Asma', I’d think the process would need to go something like this:

Step 1: What verse from al-Yusuf is this referring to (the verse referred to is the same as the Surah number in the Qayyum al-Asma')
Step 2: What part of this verse is from the Quran??
Step 3: What is the full context of this verse??
Step 4: What is the full context of the parts of this verse that are from the Quran??
Step 5: What does the verse mean, given all of these things??

However, I can’t fully apply these steps to your provided verses.

For the first verse you cite from al-Jahad, it is in explanation of the verse: “He (Jacob/Yaqob) said, ‘I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.’” (12:98)

For the second verse out of al-Ghetal, it is in explanation of the verse: “They (Joseph/Yusuf’s brothers) said, ‘O our father, ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners.’” (12:97)

For step 2: I tried using a search engine to try to figure out what parts of these verses originally come from the Quran and are not purely the Bab’s words… but as I don’t speak Arabic and my internet-searching skills are not good enough, this did not ultimately work . So I can’t say which parts of these verses are new, and which are from the Quran, if any, nor can I identify the original Quranic contexts of these.

For step 3: There’s not a full English version of this book, so I have no ability to dig deeper to find the context of the two verses you point out. But it kind of feels to me like when someone quotes the Quran 2:191 to me as “kill them wherever you find them”… it feels like it is missing context.

For the following verse, for example, “Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth.”

Is there any context around that verse that commands this to be a part of an offensive war?? It seems to me, without context, to be no different than Quran 2:191, which states that you should kill those who are fighting you. Quran 2:190 gives the context that the command is to fight those who attack you specifically, and not be the aggressor, but because of language barriers I cannot see the Qayyum al-Asma' 98 verse in its full context. Are you aware of context for this verse that explains why a war between believers and unbelievers is being fought?? Is there anywhere the Bab commands wars of aggression, or is this war described here no different than a Quranic war of defense??

For the Qayyum al-Asma' 97 verse, seeing the full context would again be nice. I hesitate to ask, since it would probably be a lot of work, but does anyone here have, or willing to produce, the translations of the full Surahs to give these verses their context?? Thinking on GoaForce’s statements about the calls for province-occupation in the Bayan, I must wonder if the call for occupation here is similar… but without context I have no idea one way or another.

Ultimately full context is extremely important. Without it you can say any religion seems violent, really, with Quran 2:191 “Kill them wherever you find them…” or Luke 19:27 “... Bring them here and slay them in front of me.” Both sound horrendous out of context, but are fine when their full context is explored.

Quote:
so can we say when those three Babis decided on killing the Shah, it was their own decision and not out of Bab's laws?? how can you say it?
Without context I cannot be sure…

But is what ISIS doing of their own decision or out of Muhammad’s laws?? Groups like ISIS look at verses like 2:191 without context and come to bizarre conclusions that they should kill and attack and slaughter and enslave women.

Because their inspiration comes from out-of-context Quranic verses, one COULD say their decisions are out of Muhammad’s laws. But because they took the verses out of context, one could ALSO say it was their own decision.

It is possible that these Babi assassins are similar to ISIS. Perhaps they had only a “vacuous” understanding of scriptures, looking at one verse without the context of the rest of the Bab’s word, and coming to a conclusion of violence based off of that.

But, again, I have no ability to learn the full context of the quotes you provided at this point in time, and thus I cannot say for sure whether the conclusions they came from would be devoid of scriptural context or not.

Quote:
So, if she had translated the whole book into Persian, why nowadays we do not have it? why the Universal House of Justice doesn't publish it all?!
Well… it’s very possible that she translated it on the fly, just like what you are doing now. Perhaps she had a copy in Arabic and translated it directly through speech to her students. Even if she did this through writing, that’s no guarantee that she had a full translation written down, or that that full translation survived past her persecution and execution. Ultimately, I can find nothing that would indicate that any such Persian translation from Tahere is owned by the Baha'i administrations.

While I would love to see this book translated, I think it is probably a task that is hard to do so. The few snippets of translation I can find are careful to try to indicate which parts of the work are Quranic in source, and which parts are purely the Bab’s words. (and it seems to be something like an 50%/50% split) Translating it this way would, I assume, require an extensive knowledge of Arabic and the Quran to be able to identify all the places that the Bab skillfully weaves Quranic scripture into his own. It’s not an easy task, I imagine.

Last edited by Walrus; 10-11-2017 at 07:09 AM.
 
Old 10-11-2017, 10:24 AM   #13
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thanks a LOT Walrus for the reply.
Yes, Qayumu'l Asma is a bizarre book. when I read the commentary of SUrah Joseph, I am usually perplexed. and unfortunately, i too, do not know much about Arabic, otherwise I could read the whole book.
what I am sure about (after my search) is that the tow examples I provided here, are Bab's words apart from Quranic verse. but yes, you are right, I cannot see the context.
The unfortunate point here is that , in my opinion, both Bayanic and Bahai main members (UHJ in our case) are a bit too slow. this book, is Bab's main work after Bayan and it is a shame and a wonder why after 200 years we still do not have a translation of it. while those who try to misread and change the laws of Babi and Bahai. are experts in Arabic as well. so when they say something, people mostly believe them because we are not as good in Arabic as they are. everything looks to be too slow!
it seems like we cannot reach a conclusion on this matter because none of us here know Arabic and even if we do, I dare say none of us has studied the whole big Qayumu'l Asma book. I wish I could read that myself....maybe someday.
 
Old 10-11-2017, 11:35 AM   #14
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It seems like we cannot reach a conclusion on this matter because none of us here know Arabic and even if we do, I dare say none of us has studied the whole big Qayumu'l Asma book. I wish I could read that myself....maybe someday.
Allah'u'abaha maryamr.

I always look at this with the advice to "be Anxiously concerned with the needs of the day we live in".

The complexity of translation requires a unity of Mind that this time dictates is not a priority. Consider if it was a priority the Universal House of Justice, who has the Mind on the pulse of Humanity, would have undertaken this task.

I also see if we pick up just the Hidden Words, which contains all the essance of meaning of all past scriptures, then with just this One small book we have the tools to do what is needed of us in this Day.

Community building is the current goal. God always gives us what we need.

Stay well, safe and happy. Love also from my wife. Regards Tony
 
Old 10-11-2017, 12:27 PM   #15
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I totally agree!! I'd personally prioritize the translation of the Bayan and then the Qayyum al-Asma' after it if I was in some sort of position of power. I understand the usual counterarguments: that as they detail Bayanic and Quranic law, laws that are now obsolete, they are not valuable as legal guides, but there's plenty of non-legal, metaphysical and spiritual truths in both documents that are not subject to abrogation by a new manifestation.

To Tony's point I'd say that translations would actually strengthen community building, for numerous reasons, from understanding the history and continuity of things, to combating propaganda by building up community knowledge.

But maybe the onus should not just be on leadership?? Maybe we could start some sort of provisional translation initiative from a grassroots, community based level??

Some time ago I purchased a program from Rosetta Stone for learning Farsi (though ultimately my progress stalled significantly trying to grapple with the alphabet ). Now I think I should spend some time to try to learn it again.
 
Old 10-11-2017, 01:17 PM   #16
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I totally agree!! I'd personally prioritize the translation of the Bayan and then the Qayyum al-Asma' after it if I was in some sort of position of power. I understand the usual counterarguments: that as they detail Bayanic and Quranic law, laws that are now obsolete, they are not valuable as legal guides, but there's plenty of non-legal, metaphysical and spiritual truths in both documents that are not subject to abrogation by a new manifestation.

To Tony's point I'd say that translations would actually strengthen community building, for numerous reasons, from understanding the history and continuity of things, to combating propaganda by building up community knowledge.

But maybe the onus should not just be on leadership?? Maybe we could start some sort of provisional translation initiative from a grassroots, community based level??

Some time ago I purchased a program from Rosetta Stone for learning Farsi (though ultimately my progress stalled significantly trying to grapple with the alphabet ). Now I think I should spend some time to try to learn it again.
you better try to learn Arabic first instead of Farsi
but that is such a good idea you have, to start some sort of provisional translation etc .... / if we think the process of translating the most important texts are taking too long, we should do something personally. to understand Bayan and other works of Bab is really critical to those who are having their first look at our faith.
 
Old 10-11-2017, 01:20 PM   #17
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Allah'u'abaha maryamr.

I always look at this with the advice to "be Anxiously concerned with the needs of the day we live in".

The complexity of translation requires a unity of Mind that this time dictates is not a priority. Consider if it was a priority the Universal House of Justice, who has the Mind on the pulse of Humanity, would have undertaken this task.

I also see if we pick up just the Hidden Words, which contains all the essance of meaning of all past scriptures, then with just this One small book we have the tools to do what is needed of us in this Day.

Community building is the current goal. God always gives us what we need.

Stay well, safe and happy. Love also from my wife. Regards Tony
Allaho Abha Tony and sorry but I disagree with you!
how can you say that the translating of such important texts is not a priority in our times? imagine someone is having a first glance at our faith, and he/she is confused between Azali and Bahai faith. now the only way for that person to reach a logical conclusion would be to personally read Bab's works; all the important ones and not just Bayan. we cannot be followers of the ideas of others without us having studied deeply beforehand.
 
Old 10-11-2017, 01:31 PM   #18
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you better try to learn Arabic first instead of Farsi
I'm aware that Arabic would probably be a better choice for scripture reading overall... but I read a provisional translation of the first chapter of the Bayan-i-Farsi and ever since that I've wanted to read that particular book more than any other non-English book out there.
 
Old 10-11-2017, 05:09 PM   #19
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In Abdul Baha's book, Makatib (Page 266), He talks about the gist and core of the religions of the past. He first talks about the core of the teachings of Moses. Then comes to Jesus and says the gist of His religion was brotherhood and kindness. The Comes to Mohammad and says the gist of His religion was abandoning and breaking of all idols. Now, Abdul Baha reaches the time of Bab and says (my own translation because I could not find the English translation):
The core of the teachings of Bab is and the main subject was to "beheading","burning of books", and"killing of all those who are not Babis".

Now I was watching a new documentary movie recently made by a Bahai woman and then after it came the critic, who is a Muslim and very critical of Bahais. He is very famous in Iran for his strong critical views towards the faith. he said something which made me send a question here. I hope you can help me answer it.

first of all, how is it that a religion of God, which is to reach equality, kindness and brotherhood, must start with "beheading and killing and setting to fire?" maybe it is not such a critical point because even in Shia Islam, Muslims believe that when Mahdi (Qaim) comes, He will kill so many Muslim Mollas that streams of blood will start to flow in the streets. but why?

now the more important question is this:
everywhere in Bahai historical data, like in Dawn Breakers, there is the talk about a small group of "extreme" Babais who decided to Kill the Shah of Iran in that time (Naserredin Shah), and they commit an unsuccessful attack. everywhere in the hostorical data, and even by Bahaullah Himself, they are called "Babi extremists" but is what they did really extreme??? in fact, they really only listened to what Bab had ordered, and since the Bahai faith was not yet born, they were right to do that, according to the teachings of the Bab!
I wonder why this FACT is always altered in Bahai data, and why Bahaullah calls them "Babi extremists". I would really be thankful if anyone can answer me, tho maybe, only those who are more into history can give me the answer.
Hello Maryamr,

Just a few points that I think are important to understand why the conclusions that the Anti-Bahais are making from the statement of Abdulbaha, and writings of the Bab are faulty:
First, like Quran, which some of its own verses were changed or abrogated by later Laws, or verses the Revelations of the Bab should be seen the same way. So, for instance Laws of Bayan were revealed after Qayyum-alasmaa. Indeed we do see that, the Words of the Babi revelation are to say those who do not believe in His revelation are worthy of being killed, yet, He always puts some conditions as to make these Laws inapplicable in practise. So, it seems outwardly that the Bab's revelation is giving this Message, without actually putting it into practice. This is why those tried to assassinate the king, did not follow the Bayans law completely.
To me, that is what Abdulbaha is saying.
We cannot just bring one sentence of Abdulbaha, and understand His view based a single paragraph.
Abdulbaha is simply saying, the main theme of the Bab's revelation is to say the unbelievers were worthy of death. But Abdulbaha's statement does not necessarily mean such things were actually ordered by the Bab. The saying of Jesus is somewhat symbolic to me. It just means that the main message of Jesus was forgiveness instead of revenge.


You also asked "first of all, how is it that a religion of God, which is to reach equality, kindness and brotherhood, must start with "beheading and killing and setting to fire?" "

It is like saying how religion of God which is supposed to bring justice, ask people to show the other side of their face, when they are hit on one side. This seems to encourage the wrongdoers who do not have any feelings.
We cannot just bring one verse and simplify a whole religion.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 10-11-2017 at 05:29 PM.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 09:18 AM   #20
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Hello Maryamr,

Just a few points that I think are important to understand why the conclusions that the Anti-Bahais are making from the statement of Abdulbaha, and writings of the Bab are faulty:
First, like Quran, which some of its own verses were changed or abrogated by later Laws, or verses the Revelations of the Bab should be seen the same way. So, for instance Laws of Bayan were revealed after Qayyum-alasmaa. Indeed we do see that, the Words of the Babi revelation are to say those who do not believe in His revelation are worthy of being killed, yet, He always puts some conditions as to make these Laws inapplicable in practise. So, it seems outwardly that the Bab's revelation is giving this Message, without actually putting it into practice. This is why those tried to assassinate the king, did not follow the Bayans law completely.
To me, that is what Abdulbaha is saying.
We cannot just bring one sentence of Abdulbaha, and understand His view based a single paragraph.
Abdulbaha is simply saying, the main theme of the Bab's revelation is to say the unbelievers were worthy of death. But Abdulbaha's statement does not necessarily mean such things were actually ordered by the Bab. The saying of Jesus is somewhat symbolic to me. It just means that the main message of Jesus was forgiveness instead of revenge.


You also asked "first of all, how is it that a religion of God, which is to reach equality, kindness and brotherhood, must start with "beheading and killing and setting to fire?" "

It is like saying how religion of God which is supposed to bring justice, ask people to show the other side of their face, when they are hit on one side. This seems to encourage the wrongdoers who do not have any feelings.
We cannot just bring one verse and simplify a whole religion.
very good points. I cannot disagree with any of what you said. the only question now in my mind is why the UHJ or whatever responsible office or anything is so slow in translating scripture. I always thought the main responsibility of the Universal House of Justice is to shed light onto scripture; to help people understand better. But without first translating them so that people can read them, how can we progress?
 
Old 10-12-2017, 12:22 PM   #21
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very good points. I cannot disagree with any of what you said. the only question now in my mind is why the UHJ or whatever responsible office or anything is so slow in translating scripture. I always thought the main responsibility of the Universal House of Justice is to shed light onto scripture; to help people understand better. But without first translating them so that people can read them, how can we progress?
Greetings. That is a good question.

If someone has elements of answer, i also am eager to know.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 01:35 PM   #22
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Maybe we can use the democratic elements of the faith... rally people to vote in candidates to positions of leadership who wish to prioritize translation.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 02:25 PM   #23
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Maybe we can use the democratic elements of the faith... rally people to vote in candidates to positions of leadership who wish to prioritize translation.
I don't think it is really meant to work like that.

On the other hand, we can write letters and appeal to the Institutions for more translations, particularly of the Bab's writings, but that really depends on having enough qualified people and there is so much left to translate. Provisional translations can be done by anyone who has the language skills, but the quality will naturally vary. Authorized translations require a group of translators, at least 2 people who are native speakers of each language, and with the background to appreciate the cultural and historic context, according to guidance that Abdul-Baha gave.
 
Old 10-13-2017, 11:06 AM   #24
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I don't think it is really meant to work like that.

On the other hand, we can write letters and appeal to the Institutions for more translations, particularly of the Bab's writings, but that really depends on having enough qualified people and there is so much left to translate. Provisional translations can be done by anyone who has the language skills, but the quality will naturally vary. Authorized translations require a group of translators, at least 2 people who are native speakers of each language, and with the background to appreciate the cultural and historic context, according to guidance that Abdul-Baha gave.
internationally speaking, that won't be difficult. I mean, UHJ can form groups of people in different languages. like a group consisting of ten Persian experts; another group of 10 Arabic experts, etc... and then to assign the groups the task of translation. I guess we have enough Bahais around the world to form at least 5 groups; Bahais with good knowledge of language. do not we?
 
Old 10-13-2017, 03:03 PM   #25
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I agree that official translations of the Bab's writings should be made and then made available to the public. Every other Manifestation's teachings have been made freely available to the world, and a failure to include the Bab in this list seems ridiculous. I, too, have seen many anti-Baha'i views online that claim (or at least insinuate) that the failure to offer translations is an act of secrecy, and that there is so much that would offend the sensibilities of the typical Baha'i that the Baha'i administration is afraid it would be too disruptive to the Baha'i cause. The UHJ's silence not only fails to defend against this claim, but it actually adds credence to it.

This is yet another of the reasons why I hesitate to actually sign a declaration card despite having a great affinity with the Baha'i faith. It matters.

(EDIT: I know that in the past I have defended the languorous approach to offering translations of the Bab, saying it really doesn't matter much. The more I think about it, though, the more it bothers me.)

Last edited by Scribe; 10-13-2017 at 03:11 PM.
 
Old 10-14-2017, 12:18 AM   #26
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living in a dangerous country, I am forbidden to directly contact Universal House of Justice through sending emails. But everyone else here, as far as I know, can do it.
so why not sending an email to them, asking for the reason of their hesitation? And in the email telling them that reasons like "it is not time yet" or "we are progressing slowly" are not that logical.
after all, Bahaullah has stated,

"It is incumbent upon the Trustees of the House of Justice to take counsel together regarding those things which have not outwardly been revealed in the Book, and to enforce that which is agreeable to them. God will verily inspire them with whatsoever He willeth, and He, verily, is the Provider, the Omniscient.2
Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the Ministers of the House of Justice that they may act according to the needs and requirements of the time. They that, for the sake of God, arise to serve His Cause, are the recipients of divine inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is incumbent upon all to be obedient unto them"

and this does not mean that we cannot give them our ideas.
 
Old 10-15-2017, 11:12 AM   #27
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I got an answer from a Bahai person in my place, that can be useful for anyone who took part in this discussion.

He said that the Universal House of Justice is doing its best to translate the scripture. The priority is with Bahai scripture from Bahaullah, Abdul Baha and SHoghi Afandi. since there are many many many writings by these people,we should give more attention first to translate them. As for the Bab's writings, and the questions that may form in the minds of those who are at the beginning of their way, other Bahais can be a good help. With a little effort we can find Bahais near us or in the virtual world who can help us to understand the meaning of those parts of the scripture which we cannot understand due to the language.

Now, I too have an opinion which came to my mind right now. Sadly, for a few days I started to suspect the reliability of the UHJ while I knew what Abdul Baha had said. He has said that those who want to be Bahais, must accept ALL the aspects of the faith, and not just randomly select those aspects that suit their insufficient understanding and knowledge. So I reached the conclusion that if I was doubtful of the UHJ, it is a sign of my lack of faith in general. So the solution is not in picking on UHJ and asking more and more questions to quench my thirst; rather, it is to work on my understanding of the faith in general and to study as much of the holy writings as I can so that God will hopefully strengthen my faith.

I hope the answer I received and my personal opinion can help others as well.
 
Old 10-15-2017, 02:53 PM   #28
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Sadly, for a few days I started to suspect the reliability of the UHJ...
Those are the moments when you start going through the matter thorougly and end up with a deeper understanding of the issue. You're amazing, because your thinking bridges the East-West divide.

Best,

from

gnat
 
Old 10-15-2017, 09:07 PM   #29
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Those are the moments when you start going through the matter thorougly and end up with a deeper understanding of the issue. You're amazing, because your thinking bridges the East-West divide.

Best,

from

gnat
thank you so much Gnat
 
Old 10-15-2017, 10:04 PM   #30
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It may also be helpful to remember that while the Bab is considered a Manifestation of God, he also deferred to "He Whom God will make manifest" (Baha'u'llah) and said that Baha'u'llah's Revelation superseded his own.
 
Old 10-16-2017, 07:41 PM   #31
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It may also be helpful to remember that while the Bab is considered a Manifestation of God, he also deferred to "He Whom God will make manifest" (Baha'u'llah) and said that Baha'u'llah's Revelation superseded his own.
That is a good point. Still, I am sometimes confused about why the Bayan, at the very least, has not been translated into English after so many years. Surely there can't be anything worse than the violence of the Old Testament, or the insinuations that Jesus is a deity in the New Testament. Besides, the Bab is not a minor figure in the faith. If so much about Baha'u'llah's legitimacy depends on what the Bab said about him, isn't it logical to conclude that we should have the information to determine the legitimacy of the Bab?

In my humble opinion, there is more than enough translated material from Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi to make a very informed decision about what each of them had to say about the faith. I do not feel, however, that I know much about the Bab's views. I understand that his teachings and commandments may differ considerably from what Baha'u'llah eventually taught, but I would still like to investigate his views for myself. Isn't independent investigation considered laudable? Neglecting translations of the Bab any further just seems....well, negligent. He is no mere minor prophet, nor the "mere" descendant of a Manifestation, but a major Manifestation on his own. It is difficult to believe that for that reason alone, the Bayan has not received more attention.

In my other posts, I have stated that I have had problems accepting Muhammad as a major Manifestation. Yet never once have I encountered the attitude that the Qur'an is too insignificant for my attention, and that I should ignore it and concentrate solely on Baha'u'llah's words. No one has ever had the temerity to suggest the Qur'an is so insignificant. Why, then, do so many Baha'is merrily step in line an allow the Bayan to be treated so much differently than the Qur'an? I simply don't understand.
 
Old 10-17-2017, 11:16 AM   #32
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That is a good point. Still, I am sometimes confused about why the Bayan, at the very least, has not been translated into English
Dear Scribe.
Here:
The Bab's Persian Bayan
you can read the english translation of Persian Bayan

You know that I had the same problem until a few days ago. But then I talked to some very good people FACE TO FACE and also VIRTUAL. the power of their words and the light created by them, cleaned the doubt from my heart. Now I know that our main job is to study as much of the Bahai scripture as we can. but I do not say Bab's major work is unimportant. the matter is, we can find at least a gist of it here and there and then if we like to delve deeper, I am sure there are always Bahais who can help us with a personal translated book. maybe it is a good way to grow the spirit of social life and co working.
 
Old 10-17-2017, 11:26 AM   #33
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Dear Scribe.
Here:
The Bab's Persian Bayan
you can read the english translation of Persian Bayan
Awww, I got my hopes up for a moment. Unfortunately the link only covers 1:1-2:8, lacking 2:9-19:19. Though this is the partial translation I read that gave me the desire to read the whole thing. There's some mind-blowing ideas in there!!

Oh well, back to Rosetta Stone software.
 
Old 10-17-2017, 02:21 PM   #34
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That is a good point. Still, I am sometimes confused about why the Bayan, at the very least, has not been translated into English after so many years. Surely there can't be anything worse than the violence of the Old Testament, or the insinuations that Jesus is a deity in the New Testament. Besides, the Bab is not a minor figure in the faith. If so much about Baha'u'llah's legitimacy depends on what the Bab said about him, isn't it logical to conclude that we should have the information to determine the legitimacy of the Bab?

In my humble opinion, there is more than enough translated material from Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi to make a very informed decision about what each of them had to say about the faith. I do not feel, however, that I know much about the Bab's views. I understand that his teachings and commandments may differ considerably from what Baha'u'llah eventually taught, but I would still like to investigate his views for myself. Isn't independent investigation considered laudable? Neglecting translations of the Bab any further just seems....well, negligent. He is no mere minor prophet, nor the "mere" descendant of a Manifestation, but a major Manifestation on his own. It is difficult to believe that for that reason alone, the Bayan has not received more attention.

In my other posts, I have stated that I have had problems accepting Muhammad as a major Manifestation. Yet never once have I encountered the attitude that the Qur'an is too insignificant for my attention, and that I should ignore it and concentrate solely on Baha'u'llah's words. No one has ever had the temerity to suggest the Qur'an is so insignificant. Why, then, do so many Baha'is merrily step in line an allow the Bayan to be treated so much differently than the Qur'an? I simply don't understand.
You're right, you don't understand. Baha'u'llah superseded the Bab. We should know a lot more about Baha'u'llah.
 
Old 10-17-2017, 04:48 PM   #35
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I thought the greatest body of the Guardians work was written in English!
 
Old 10-17-2017, 04:57 PM   #36
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I thought the greatest body of the Guardians work was written in English!
Actually the Guardian wrote a lot of letters in Persian which were never translated into English. In one of his recent talks, Hooper Dunbar (retired UHJ member) said that it was likely to be a future translation project to publish a representative collection of these letters.
 
Old 10-17-2017, 10:23 PM   #37
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Awww, I got my hopes up for a moment. Unfortunately the link only covers 1:1-2:8, lacking 2:9-19:19. Though this is the partial translation I read that gave me the desire to read the whole thing. There's some mind-blowing ideas in there!!

Oh well, back to Rosetta Stone software.



I'll try to find the other half for you.
 
Old 10-18-2017, 05:50 AM   #38
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You're right, you don't understand. Baha'u'llah superseded the Bab. We should know a lot more about Baha'u'llah.
I must disagree. I feel that's like saying "You only need to read the most recent novel in a series of books." The full story and the older prophets are important for building the context to understand the most recent. It's all part of one grand narrative.

Plus while the Bab's Laws are no longer applicable, His writings about subjects like metaphysics, theology, and the like cannot be abrogated. His explanation in the Bayan-i-Farsi, for example, on why each prophet was granted the specific miraculous powers they were given cannot be invalidated by a newer revelation.

It wouldn't make sense for God to change the reasons he did things in the past or the way the universe works with every single Revelation, so one must logically assume everything written by a past prophet on those subjects is still of important value in understanding how the universe works. Prophets can abrogate laws, but they can't contradict fundamental metaphysical concepts.
 
Old 10-18-2017, 10:56 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
I must disagree. I feel that's like saying "You only need to read the most recent novel in a series of books." The full story and the older prophets are important for building the context to understand the most recent. It's all part of one grand narrative.

Plus while the Bab's Laws are no longer applicable, His writings about subjects like metaphysics, theology, and the like cannot be abrogated. His explanation in the Bayan-i-Farsi, for example, on why each prophet was granted the specific miraculous powers they were given cannot be invalidated by a newer revelation.

It wouldn't make sense for God to change the reasons he did things in the past or the way the universe works with every single Revelation, so one must logically assume everything written by a past prophet on those subjects is still of important value in understanding how the universe works. Prophets can abrogate laws, but they can't contradict fundamental metaphysical concepts.
Thank you.
 
Old 10-18-2017, 11:50 AM   #40
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Joined: Sep 2010
From: Normanton Far North Queensland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
I agree that official translations of the Bab's writings should be made and then made available to the public. Every other Manifestation's teachings have been made freely available to the world, and a failure to include the Bab in this list seems ridiculous. I, too, have seen many anti-Baha'i views online that claim (or at least insinuate) that the failure to offer translations is an act of secrecy, and that there is so much that would offend the sensibilities of the typical Baha'i that the Baha'i administration is afraid it would be too disruptive to the Baha'i cause. The UHJ's silence not only fails to defend against this claim, but it actually adds credence to it.

This is yet another of the reasons why I hesitate to actually sign a declaration card despite having a great affinity with the Baha'i faith. It matters.

(EDIT: I know that in the past I have defended the languorous approach to offering translations of the Bab, saying it really doesn't matter much. The more I think about it, though, the more it bothers me.)

There has been a lot written on this subject, here is one link

https://bahai-library.com/compilatio...l_translations

Provisional Translations are allowed.

Maybe Sen will come and give insight into this subject, Sen is knowledgeable of the complexities of this task. Indeed on His Blog he has discussed this issue.

Regards Tony
 
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