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Old 11-13-2017, 01:21 PM   #1
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Abraham was an Arab

Abraham was definitely an Arab. This is because races evolve very slowly. The converts to his religion were not just those of his family but of others, especially in Egypt. How else do you think the Hebrews could grow to 3 million from just a few. Also Zoroastrianism had a role to play. When the Persians conquered the Babylonians they influenced the Jews to become monotheistic, because before they believed they should worship Yahweh and not other gods. This is why some were worshiping other Gods. After they were monotheistic they had less of a problem sticking to Yahweh.
 
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:45 PM   #2
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As Abraham was born in Ur He was Chaldean or Sumerian.

I don't understand why you link Abraham to Zoroastrianism. This was many centuries afterwards when Moses aready appeared gave the Thora. Of course there were Zoroastrian influences to Judaism (e.g. the belief in Judgement Day and angels), but not in the times of Abraham or Moses but almost a millenium later.
 
Old 11-13-2017, 04:27 PM   #3
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Duane,

Some interesting things to think about, but you initial statement is contradicted by your argument. If races developed gradually, the Arab Race that we know today did not yet exist at the time of Abraham. Unless you are referring to the people who lived in the Arabian Peninsula itself. I don't think enough work has yet been done to analyze the genetic makeup of early Arabians compared with Egyptians or Chaldeans from a factual/scientific perspective, but that probably will be done in the future. We recently learned that the Cannanites still exist, and they are Lebanese.

Your point about early Israelites worshiping other Gods besides Yahweh is probably correct, as archeological findings in early Israelite settlements in the West Bank show many statues of the Godess Ashura all over the place. That is not really contradicted by Biblical scripture either, as time and again the Isrealites keep being punished by God for lack of faith. Whether Zoroastrianism had a positive effect on their belief is another question, but worth asking. The Jewish faith that we know today really developed from those who were exiled in Babylon then returned, and many scholars believe the Torah we have today was edited by scribes in Babylonian exile.

Last edited by Jcc; 11-13-2017 at 04:43 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 11:47 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoerenRekelBludau View Post
As Abraham was born in Ur He was Chaldean or Sumerian.

I don't understand why you link Abraham to Zoroastrianism. This was many centuries afterwards when Moses already appeared gave the Thora. Of course there were Zoroastrian influences to Judaism (e.g. the belief in Judgment Day and angels), but not in the times of Abraham or Moses but almost a millennium later.
He was an Arab that lived in Ur. As people of other races mixed with the Arabs they became a new race. We can see that Abraham was an Arab because Jews and Arabs are both supposed to be Semitic.

Also Ishmael perpetrated the religion in Mecca, where he called God Allah, the Arabic name for the creator of the Universe. That was his role.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 12:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoerenRekelBludau View Post
As Abraham was born in Ur He was Chaldean or Sumerian.

I don't understand why you link Abraham to Zoroastrianism. This was many centuries afterwards when Moses already appeared gave the Thora. Of course there were Zoroastrian influences to Judaism (e.g. the belief in Judgment Day and angels), but not in the times of Abraham or Moses but almost a millennium later.
He was an Arab that lived in Ur. As people of other races mixed with the Arabs they became a new race. We can see that Abraham was an Arab because Jews and Arabs are both supposed to be Semitic. It is impossible for the Hebrews to grow from 12 to 3 million in that time

Also Ishmael perpetrated the religion in Mecca, where he called God Allah, the Arabic name for the creator of the Universe. That was his role.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 12:18 PM   #6
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Duane,

Some interesting things to think about, but you initial statement is contradicted by your argument. If races developed gradually, the Arab Race that we know today did not yet exist at the time of Abraham. Unless you are referring to the people who lived in the Arabian Peninsula itself. I don't think enough work has yet been done to analyze the genetic makeup of early Arabians compared with Egyptians or Chaldeans from a factual/scientific perspective, but that probably will be done in the future. We recently learned that the Cannanites still exist, and they are Lebanese.

Your point about early Israelites worshiping other Gods besides Yahweh is probably correct, as archaeological findings in early Israelite settlements in the West Bank show many statues of the Goddess Ashura all over the place. That is not really contradicted by Biblical scripture either, as time and again the Israelites keep being punished by God for lack of faith. Whether Zoroastrianism had a positive effect on their belief is another question, but worth asking. The Jewish faith that we know today really developed from those who were exiled in Babylon then returned, and many scholars believe the Torah we have today was edited by scribes in Babylonian exile.
As the races that followed Abraham mixed, they became a new race. It is impossible to grow from 12 to 3 million in 400 years. No one can do it.

Moses said that you were not to put other gods before Yahweh, so they believed in other gods. That's why some worshiped other gods before they met the Zoroastrians. Also that is why the dependent prophets called Yahweh the God of Israel.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 12:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
Abraham was definitely an Arab.
As he was from Ur, as others have said this is false. He was Chaldean or Sumerian or perhaps another minority living within Ur. Arab is unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
This is because races evolve very slowly.
There are two possible things you could mean when you say "race" here.

The first case, the thing the majority of people call "race" is unscientific nonsense and utter hogwash.

The second case, the scientific definition of "race", does not contain a race called "Arab". Instead the Arabs as well as Chaldeans, Sumerians, and Hebrews are all part of the Caucasoid race. In total, there are only three races under this view.

Your comment, I feel, is invalid, for if you are using the first definition then it has no basis in reality, and if you are using the second you are using it very much incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
The converts to his religion were not just those of his family but of others, especially in Egypt.
Possibly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
How else do you think the Hebrews could grow to 3 million from just a few.
Checking the numbers, there are more descendants of one of my 12th century ancestors alive right now than there are Baha'is.

I don't doubt conversion could play a role, but ancestry can spread out to a ridiculous extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
Also Zoroastrianism had a role to play.
Concurrent ideas do not prove a single source. Which I must admit despite the fact that I'd like to believe they originate from a single source, since I believe both Zoroaster and Abraham to be valid prophets.

But Europeans, certain South African groups, and Asian Steppe Nomads interestingly developed the practice of drinking the dairy products of livestock all completely independent of one another. It's actually quite interesting how it developed that way.

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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
When the Persians conquered the Babylonians they influenced the Jews to become monotheistic, because before they believed they should worship Yahweh and not other gods.
That's a common belief, though the story of Abraham smashing idols to show that his God had true power while the idols had no power does not make sense if we accept the idea that Abraham believed those gods were real, and only advocated worshiping one particular God.

His whole point in his act of idol desecration was to affirm his claim that other people's idols had no real power, and he sought to prove this by doing something that would doubtless offend those gods and show them having no power and taking no action against him.

If you believe that his original point was that "many gods may exist, but let's only worship this one", then I challenge you to come up with an explanation to his smashing the idols that makes sense alongside the belief that he thought those were real gods.

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This is why some were worshiping other Gods.
Or... some were worshiping other gods because multiple religions existed!! But that'd be the obvious answer.

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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
After they were monotheistic they had less of a problem sticking to Yahweh.
Honestly I think this one is better explained by the human nature. People tend to react the opposite way you wish when you tell them to do a thing. When Israel is free and independent, you see them in repeated cycles of adopting other religions, facing a crisis, being brought back to the faith, etc.

But when you have a bunch of Babylonians and later Greeks and even later Romans ruling over you telling you your religion is wrong and stealing your temple to worship their funny foreign gods, well, even people who weren't as devout to begin with will suddenly turn to their faith with renewed vigor simply to spite the people telling them their religion is wrong.

Humans are funny that way. Tell them they aren't allowed to do or be a thing and they want to do or be that more than they did before.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 12:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
As he was from Ur, as others have said this is false. He was Chaldean or Sumerian or perhaps another minority living within Ur. Arab is unlikely.



There are two possible things you could mean when you say "race" here.

The first case, the thing the majority of people call "race" is unscientific nonsense and utter hogwash.

The second case, the scientific definition of "race", does not contain a race called "Arab". Instead the Arabs as well as Chaldeans, Sumerians, and Hebrews are all part of the Caucasoid race. In total, there are only three races under this view.

Your comment, I feel, is invalid, for if you are using the first definition then it has no basis in reality, and if you are using the second you are using it very much incorrectly.



Possibly.



Checking the numbers, there are more descendants of one of my 12th century ancestors alive right now than there are Baha'is.

I don't doubt conversion could play a role, but ancestry can spread out to a ridiculous extent.



Concurrent ideas do not prove a single source. Which I must admit despite the fact that I'd like to believe they originate from a single source, since I believe both Zoroaster and Abraham to be valid prophets.

But Europeans, certain South African groups, and Asian Steppe Nomads interestingly developed the practice of drinking the dairy products of livestock all completely independent of one another. It's actually quite interesting how it developed that way.



That's a common belief, though the story of Abraham smashing idols to show that his God had true power while the idols had no power does not make sense if we accept the idea that Abraham believed those gods were real, and only advocated worshiping one particular God.

His whole point in his act of idol desecration was to affirm his claim that other people's idols had no real power, and he sought to prove this by doing something that would doubtless offend those gods and show them having no power and taking no action against him.

If you believe that his original point was that "many gods may exist, but let's only worship this one", then I challenge you to come up with an explanation to his smashing the idols that makes sense alongside the belief that he thought those were real gods.



Or... some were worshiping other gods because multiple religions existed!! But that'd be the obvious answer.



Honestly I think this one is better explained by the human nature. People tend to react the opposite way you wish when you tell them to do a thing. When Israel is free and independent, you see them in repeated cycles of adopting other religions, facing a crisis, being brought back to the faith, etc.

But when you have a bunch of Babylonians and later Greeks and even later Romans ruling over you telling you your religion is wrong and stealing your temple to worship their funny foreign gods, well, even people who weren't as devout to begin with will suddenly turn to their faith with renewed vigor simply to spite the people telling them their religion is wrong.

Humans are funny that way. Tell them they aren't allowed to do or be a thing and they want to do or be that more than they did before.
Read the rest of the posts.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 12:53 PM   #9
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It is impossible to grow from 12 to 3 million in 400 years. No one can do it.
So while I accept the ideas there were probably converts along the way, I don't think you are correct.

It's really hard to find percise numbers, but from what I can tell I'm pretty sure the Genghisids did this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
Moses said that you were not to put other gods before Yahweh, so they believed in other gods.
Not necessarily.

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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
That's why some worshiped other gods before they met the Zoroastrians.
Another area in which your theory fails: there were Jews who worshiped other gods after they met the Zoroastrians too. During Hellenic occupation there were a number that turned to Hellenism.

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Also that is why the dependent prophets called Yahweh the God of Israel.
I don't think that follows. We Baha'is name god the "All-Bountiful" but that does not imply that we think he is merely the God of Bounty and there are a bunch of other gods out there. He has many names.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 12:54 PM   #10
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Read the rest of the posts.
Ummm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
As the races that followed Abraham mixed, they became a new race.
Your posts don't answer my concerns about your usage of that word.

Are you going for the ignorant definition of "race" or the scientific one?? Because "Arab" is not a race.

Last edited by Walrus; 11-14-2017 at 01:01 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 12:58 PM   #11
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We can see that Abraham was an Arab because Jews and Arabs are both supposed to be Semitic.
Sorry Duane but that's not how genetics works!!

Like the Irish and the Hindi are both Proto-Indo-European, but that doesn't mean that ancient Hindis were Irish. Rather both groups developed out of a common ancestor. Arabs and Hebrews developed from a ancestral ethnic group we call the "Semites".

Somalis and Berbers are also Semitic within the larger Caucasoid group, but that doesn't mean that Abraham was a Berber, now does it??

Here is the fact:

Abraham was not an "Arab" nor a "Hebrew". He may have been from an ethnic group that was the ancestor of both groups, but those ethnicities did not exist at the time he was alive.

Last edited by Walrus; 11-14-2017 at 01:03 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 01:00 PM   #12
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Read the rest of the posts.
Your further posts also don't answer any of my points about Abraham's apparent monotheism. Not monolatrisim, mind you. In general you don't go around smashing idols if you believe those idols are literal gods who will smite you down if you attempt to smash them.

Your further posts also do not address my point about the same idea (like dairy, or monotheism) being developed concurrently by different, separate cultures. Atenism was developed separately from Zoroastrianism. As was the monotheistic sects of Hinduism. And monotheistic traditional African faiths. And that one monotheistic South American faith. Concurrent, separate, development of the same idea.

A reply of "Read the rest of the posts" is only valid if you have answered the person's concerns in those posts!! Of my concerns, you have answered nothing, I'm afraid.

Last edited by Walrus; 11-14-2017 at 01:05 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 01:01 PM   #13
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Answer me this. How can Ishmael grow to many million in 4000 years. The races are main categories. In a sense one person is a race because they're different. The Arabs existed at the time of Abraham if you read history. Also if Ishmael married into another people Ishmael wouldn't cause them to be Arabic.

Last edited by Duane; 11-14-2017 at 01:24 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 03:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
Answer me this. How can Ishmael grow to many million in 4000 years. The races are main categories. In a sense one person is a race because they're different. The Arabs existed at the time of Abraham if you read history. Also if Ishmael married into another people Ishmael wouldn't cause them to be Arabic.
Very true, Ishmael did not cause his descendants to be Arab, but since he went to live in the region of Arabia his descendents intermarried with the people there and therefore became Arab. The wide range of territories that we now consider Arab countries were not Arab until the spread of Islam cause racial intermixing and brought the Arabic language and culture there. Just because Iraq is an Arab country now doesn't mean it was at the time of Abraham.

The book of Genesis gives a very tilted view of how people spread throughout the world if you take it literally, assuming that everyone somehow spread from Adam only 2000 years before Abraham, and again from Noah even later, which of course is not literally correct. So don't assume that literally 12 sons of Ishmael and 12 sons of Jacob gave rise to millions within too short a period. There were people already living in those places, and their descendents intermarried with them.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 05:10 PM   #15
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It’s already been excellently stated that scientifically there is no such thing as race. Race all, despite misconceptions, doesn’t play a role in any of the Abrahamic faiths.
The Jewish people, the nation of Israel, is not a race genetically or even ethnically. It’s true that being a Jew is inherited thru ones mother. But you can also convert to being Jewish from any background. Jewish converts are said to have their souls standing before Mount Sinai when the Jews accepted the commandments (Shavuot). I can personally attest that this is true in a sense. So converts are fully Jewish ahd pass on their heritage to their children. One Rabbi told me that membership in Judaism was “open source” it wasn’t restricted to one group.
Muslims believe they by submitting to God, they become part of one nation that supersedes all worldly nations or races. They call each other brothers and sisters.
Christains believe that faith in Christ grants admission into the body of Christ which is the church.

As a Baha’i, we too reject race or tribe as any criteria for inclusion in the faith. We are one people and one movement United in God’s Love and in Bahá’u’llá.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 09:37 PM   #16
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To be fair, I have been rendered insane by the drugs I took. Take that into account. MysticMonest, did you read this:

The substance of Adam's physical life was earth, but the substance of Abraham was pure sperm; it is certain that the pure and chaste sperm is superior to earth.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 89)
 
Old 11-15-2017, 03:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
To be fair, I have been rendered insane by the drugs I took. Take that into account. MysticMonest, did you read this:

The substance of Adam's physical life was earth, but the substance of Abraham was pure sperm; it is certain that the pure and chaste sperm is superior to earth.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 89)
Duane,

In mysticism, there’s a fine line between madness and insight. In some ways they are the same thing, but that’s another topic.
I hadn’t gotten to that part in the Some Answered Questions yet.. interesting! But the meaning of sperm is very important in the Quran and some in the Torah and a lot in Kabbalah. Abraham soul substance being sperm is a metaphor. God told him he would descendants like the grains of sand on the sea shore.
Sperm is a symbol for vitality and generation, not lust.
The Hassidic Kabbalist Rabbi Nachman (who is crazy, but a good kind) made a big deal over “blemishing” the circumcision.

Just a small taste of his stuff....
“(the water used to test if a woman was adulterous or not), putrid water, impure seed - and then he unable to pray, as corresponding to [the negative aspect of the verse] "all my bones will say..." (Psalm 35). That is, he is unable to taste the sweetness of the words of prayer, and then a dog comes to eat his sacrifice, meaning his prayer. This corresponds to bitterness, the aspect of a double-edged sword, Geihinnom. However, through shmirat habrit is the aspect of sweet water, clear water, holy seed - then his words are sweet and good and when they leave his mouth and are heard by his ears, then the sweetness of the words enter into his bones. Then his prayer corresponds to [the positive aspect of the verse] "all my bones will say [HaShem, who is like You?]" (Psalm 35), and then a lion comes to eat his sacrifice. (Likutei Moharan I, 50)”

“. Through rectification of the holy brit one is spared from the face of the forces of evil which is the lust for money, which is idolatry, which is depression, melancholy, darkness, ‘the dark face’, death; and he is attached to Godliness and merits 'satiation of the joys of the face of HaShem' (alluding to Psalm 16:11), for the light of the face of the Living King shines and illuminates upon him. (From Likutei Moharan I, 23)”
 
Old 11-16-2017, 04:08 PM   #18
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Your further posts also don't answer any of my points about Abraham's apparent monotheism. Not monolatrisim, mind you. In general you don't go around smashing idols if you believe those idols are literal gods who will smite you down if you attempt to smash them.
This is one thing that I have struggled with a lot when I converted to the faith 2 years ago (almost 2 years to the day, actually! ). I definitely took a hard path full of roadblocks and stumbles instead of just walking on the sidewalk. I won't go into details now, but essentially after learning of Baha'u'llah, and feeling an extremely strong pull to the faith, I told myself that even if I didn't understand it yet, I would devote time to it and understand it eventually.

I was pagan for almost 5 years, and believed in the gods and goddesses of every religion (Long story, I know that at first glance seems like a contradiction, and I could go on and on about it but for the sake of not de-railing this thread I won't). After, I found my faith in God and converted to Islam. I remember hearing the story of Abraham smashing the idols, and it immediately became my favourite story, and I understood why people worshiped God.

But it really rocked my worldview, since I at the same time believed in those gods and goddesses. I had concluded at the time that they must not be gods and goddesses at all, just spirits whom people have given power through worshiping them. After becoming Sikh, and afterward Baha'i, I had concluded that they are DEFINITELY not deities, just spirits, and some of the more negative ones likely being demons (Which, according to Baha'u'llah, are not like the modern day interpretations, but "wayward souls who, with the burden of their evil deeds, slumber in the chambers of oblivion." Essentially just souls who've turned themselves away from God).

Thus, when Abraham smashes those idols, since his heart is with God, those demons could never even hope to have an effect on him. They may be able to sway and harm those that worship them, but they would have no effect on him. To me the story stands as a testament as to why one should not worship other gods at all. To me, they are simply spirits. And why would I worship such a spirit, with limitations to it's power, when one could worship the Lord Himself? The story is still my favourite. I see it as a testament to not worship those who are powerless, not those who are nonexistent. Sort of like how Zoroaster's people worshiped demons.

Definitely not saying my point of view is the correct one. It's just my point of view. But if they were to be simply spirits, I'm sure Abraham would have been able to see through their veil. He could have possibly had some sort of belief in them, especially given the place and time he lived - though as a Manifestation of God he would know what they truly are.

Also thank you for such an awesome conversation starter, Duane.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 08:58 AM   #19
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Answer me this. How can Ishmael grow to many million in 4000 years.
My ancestor Somerled/Somhairle mac Gille Bride has grown to many millions in just nine hundred years. The MacDonald Clan (one of many, many Gaelic Clans descended from Somerled) alone has something like two million members!!

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The races are main categories. In a sense one person is a race because they're different.
Sure. But there are only three. Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid.

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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
The Arabs existed at the time of Abraham if you read history.
From Wikipedia:

"The first written attestation of the ethnonym Arab occurs in an Assyrian inscription of 853 BCE, where Shalmaneser III lists a King Gindibu of mâtu arbâi (Arab land) as among the people he defeated at the Battle of Karkar."

"The Bible contains an intricate pattern of chronologies from the creation of Adam, the first man, to the reigns of the later kings of ancient Israel and Judah. Based on this chronology and the Rabbinic tradition, ancient Jewish sources such as Seder Olam Rabbah date the birth of Abraham to 1948 AM (c. 1813 BCE)"

I know it's not the best of sources, but no, you are off by 1000 years.

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Also if Ishmael married into another people Ishmael wouldn't cause them to be Arabic.
???

Last edited by Walrus; 11-17-2017 at 09:26 AM.
 
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