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Old 01-18-2018, 07:24 PM   #1
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Where is the Next World?

I think a lot about the next world, about those I knew and who passed away to the Abha Kingdom. Most people seems to think that the next world is somewhere up in the skies, but I think that the next world is right here on earth.

My question to you is: where is the next world?
 
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:08 PM   #2
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Hi Thomas! Good to hear from you. I have a tendency to agree with you. I believe physical world and spiritual world are different planes of existence that may or may not occupy the same space. Not sure how that works, how could I be, but I don't think there is a heaven in the sky with streets of gold. But, when I pray for my parents, brother and others that have become denizens of the Abha' Kingdom, I also pray for everyone there, that our Concourse on High might be strengthened. On high though, might mean that those that are there, are farther a!ong on their spiritual journey.....a higher degree of understanding.
Loving regards,
Becky

Last edited by becky; 01-18-2018 at 08:26 PM. Reason: Added
 
Old 01-19-2018, 06:54 AM   #3
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Where is the Dreaming World??
 
Old 01-19-2018, 06:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
I think a lot about the next world, about those I knew and who passed away to the Abha Kingdom. Most people seems to think that the next world is somewhere up in the skies, but I think that the next world is right here on earth.

My question to you is: where is the next world?
You're absolutely right. Abdu'l baha says that the spiritual world is within this world. He says that the spiritual world is the counterpart to the physical world.
 
Old 01-19-2018, 06:49 PM   #5
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Hi Becky...thank you for your reply. You mentioned "spiritual journey". Do you think that journey ever comes to an end, or is it an unending journey? Do we get to catch up with our family members who passes away many years ago? What of young children who died? Will they know who their parents are?

It's good to see you too Becky.
 
Old 01-19-2018, 06:51 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Where is the Dreaming World??
I am not sure where the dreaming world is. Can you expound?
 
Old 01-19-2018, 07:00 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by od19g6be View Post
You're absolutely right. Abdu'l baha says that the spiritual world is within this world. He says that the spiritual world is the counterpart to the physical world.
Thank you for your reply. I am wondering about the "counterpart of the physical world". What are some examples of such counterparts?
 
Old 01-19-2018, 10:04 PM   #8
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Thank you for your reply. I am wondering about the "counterpart of the physical world". What are some examples of such counterparts?
It is very interesting what abdul'baha says about the next world.

Some definitions I found about the word counterpart:

A person or thing holding a position or performing a function that corresponds to that of another person or thing in another place.

A thing that fits another perfectly.
Something that completes.

One remarkably similar to another.

A person or thing closely resembling another, especially in function.

Abdul'baha teaches about the different levels of the kingdoms. He teaches that the mineral, vegetable, animal and human kingdoms are different levels, each higher than the last. Each kingdom has the elements of the last kingdom and some/more. With each kingdom the former can't fully understand the latter because even though the latter possess all the elements of the former the latter has other/more elements that the former doesn't understand.

Abdul'baha gave an analogy. He said think of the plants(the vegetable kingdom) and us(the human kingdom) even though we have the same elements as the plants the plants are not aware of us, even though we're on the same plane of existence as they are. It's because we have elements in the human kingdom that are beyond the elements of the vegetable kingdom.

The same thing with the spiritual world. It has nature and elements that are beyond the physical world yet is a counterpart, (a flipside as I call it) to this world.
 
Old 01-19-2018, 10:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
Thank you for your reply. I am wondering about the "counterpart of the physical world". What are some examples of such counterparts?
"..The spiritual world is like unto the phenomenal world. They are the exact counterpart of each other. Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven. When we look upon the phenomenal world, we perceive that it is divided into four seasons; one is the season of spring, another the season of summer, another autumn and then these three seasons are followed by winter. When the season of spring appears in the arena of existence, the whole world is rejuvenated and finds new life. The soul-refreshing breeze is wafted from every direction; the soul-quickening bounty is everywhere; the cloud of mercy showers down its rain, and the sun shines upon everything. Day by day we perceive that the signs of vegetation are all about us. Wonderful flowers, hyacinths and roses perfume the nostrils. The trees are full of leaves and blossoms, and the blossoms are followed by fruit. The spring and summer are followed by autumn and winter. The flowers wither and are no more; the leaves turn gray and life has gone. Then comes another springtime; the former springtime is renewed; again a new life stirs within everything."

Abdu'l-Baha : The Promulgation of Universal Peace Part 1

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PUP/pup-4.html

Regards Tony
 
Old 01-20-2018, 05:40 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
Hi Becky...thank you for your reply. You mentioned "spiritual journey". Do you think that journey ever comes to an end, or is it an unending journey? Do we get to catch up with our family members who passes away many years ago? What of young children who died? Will they know who their parents are?

It's good to see you too Becky.
No, Thomas, I don't believe the Soul's journey ever ends. It's about attaining perfection and nearness to God. And yes, I believe we are aware of others we have known and loved. And I believe that so much of what we don't understand in this physical plane of existance becomes clear in the next. As to a child recognizing a parent, while I don't remember that specific question, I cannot imagine that they would not. I found reading LIFE, DEATH AND IMMORTALITY: THE JOURNEY OF THE SOUL, by Terri G to be very informative and comforting. I left my copy in Colorado but found a used copy on Amazon which I ordered for you. Message me where I should mail it.

Loving regards,
Becky

Last edited by becky; 01-20-2018 at 05:49 AM. Reason: Added
 
Old 01-22-2018, 06:57 AM   #11
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I am not sure where the dreaming world is. Can you expound?
Abdu'l-Baha once posited a proof of life after death through the existence of dreams. Dreaming, like death, being a state in which the body is at rest but the spirit is active.

"In the world of dreams the body becomes absolutely passive, but the spirit still functions actively, possessed of all susceptibilities. This leads to the conclusion that the life of the spirit is neither conditional nor dependent upon the life of the body. At most it can be said that the body is a mere garment utilized by the spirit. If that garment be destroyed, the wearer is not affected but is, in fact, protected." (Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 259.)

This leads me to suspect the state of the Next World will not wholly be unlike that of the worlds we find ourselves in while dreaming.

Thus wherever that world of dreams is, would be where I suspect the world of the afterlife would be as well.
 
Old 01-25-2018, 07:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Abdu'l-Baha once posited a proof of life after death through the existence of dreams. Dreaming, like death, being a state in which the body is at rest but the spirit is active.

"In the world of dreams the body becomes absolutely passive, but the spirit still functions actively, possessed of all susceptibilities. This leads to the conclusion that the life of the spirit is neither conditional nor dependent upon the life of the body. At most it can be said that the body is a mere garment utilized by the spirit. If that garment be destroyed, the wearer is not affected but is, in fact, protected." (Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 259.)

This leads me to suspect the state of the Next World will not wholly be unlike that of the worlds we find ourselves in while dreaming.

Thus wherever that world of dreams is, would be where I suspect the world of the afterlife would be as well.
That explains part of it but not all of it… I mean the soul has to be housed in a form of some kind and Baha’u’llah said it would take on a form that “best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation...”

So if the next world is like the world of dreams, why then would there be no plants and animals there? I dream about my cats all the time….

I do not know where in the Writings it says that animals cease to exist except that one passage in Some Answered Questions.

“The animal spirit is that all-embracing sensory power which is realized through the composition and combination of the elements. When this composition disintegrates, that spirit likewise perishes and becomes non-existent. It may be likened to this lamp: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together and combined, it is lit; and when this combination disintegrates—that is, when the constituent parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.” Some Answered Questions

I am no physicist but I can use Google.com. The law of conservation of mass states that mass can neither be created nor be destroyed but can be converted. Extinguished and converted have different meanings. Perhaps that was written before discoveries were made in physics that say that matter can never be destroyed.

I think that Abdu’l-Baha was quoted as saying that if you need your pet it will be there but I could never find the source. Maybe that means that animals will be there (wherever there is) but we will not need them or see them unless we need them. I do not know if you ever read the book entitled Private Dowding wherein the man killed in battle in WWI was communicating to a medium from the spiritual world. In his story his dog came to him. He was a loner and had no family so maybe God knew he needed his dog. Was the dog really there, or was that just something his mind conjured up? Also, in many NDE accounts people see their pets and animal communicators communicate with deceased pets. Of course none of this is definitive but neither is what Abdu’l-Baha said about “extinguished.” Had Baha’u’llah written it I would be inclined to agree, but even then we have the matter of interpretation of the Writings, unless He had made it absolutely clear. Why was this never even addressed in the Bible?

It really is not so much I think I will “need” my cats as the fact that I wonder why God would create animals and allow them to suffer and die as they do, unless they have a future existence in some form. This alone is enough to make me an unbeliever. Of course animals do not have a soul like humans but I would be content to know that animal spirit continues in some form, even if I never saw the animals in the spiritual world. And what about plants? In NDE experiences people see nature pastoral scenes… Are those just imaginary? Abdu’l-Baha said: “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

So maybe plants and animals take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.

In the Writings it says that for everything in this world there is a counterpart in the next world. I really do not understand what that means and the quote from Abdu’l-Baha in PUP did not answer it…. “Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.” I assume that means living things and not man-made things like houses and cars … Does that mean everything here is just like a photograph of what is there which is the true reality?… so nothing physical is real… it is just an image… That would fit with what Baha’u’llah wrote:

“O My servants! There shineth nothing else in Mine heart except the unfading light of the Morn of Divine guidance, and out of My mouth proceedeth naught but the essence of truth, which the Lord your God hath revealed. Follow not, therefore, your earthly desires, and violate not the Covenant of God, nor break your pledge to Him. With firm determination, with the whole affection of your heart, and with the full force of your words, turn ye unto Him, and walk not in the ways of the foolish. The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329

Yet look at how many people believe this world is the so important… hmmmmmm. They actually live for it.
 
Old 01-26-2018, 06:45 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
That explains part of it but not all of it… I mean the soul has to be housed in a form of some kind and Baha’u’llah said it would take on a form that “best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation...”

So if the next world is like the world of dreams, why then would there be no plants and animals there? I dream about my cats all the time….

I do not know where in the Writings it says that animals cease to exist except that one passage in Some Answered Questions.

“The animal spirit is that all-embracing sensory power which is realized through the composition and combination of the elements. When this composition disintegrates, that spirit likewise perishes and becomes non-existent. It may be likened to this lamp: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together and combined, it is lit; and when this combination disintegrates—that is, when the constituent parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.” Some Answered Questions

I am no physicist but I can use Google.com. The law of conservation of mass states that mass can neither be created nor be destroyed but can be converted. Extinguished and converted have different meanings. Perhaps that was written before discoveries were made in physics that say that matter can never be destroyed.

I think that Abdu’l-Baha was quoted as saying that if you need your pet it will be there but I could never find the source. Maybe that means that animals will be there (wherever there is) but we will not need them or see them unless we need them. I do not know if you ever read the book entitled Private Dowding wherein the man killed in battle in WWI was communicating to a medium from the spiritual world. In his story his dog came to him. He was a loner and had no family so maybe God knew he needed his dog. Was the dog really there, or was that just something his mind conjured up? Also, in many NDE accounts people see their pets and animal communicators communicate with deceased pets. Of course none of this is definitive but neither is what Abdu’l-Baha said about “extinguished.” Had Baha’u’llah written it I would be inclined to agree, but even then we have the matter of interpretation of the Writings, unless He had made it absolutely clear. Why was this never even addressed in the Bible?

It really is not so much I think I will “need” my cats as the fact that I wonder why God would create animals and allow them to suffer and die as they do, unless they have a future existence in some form. This alone is enough to make me an unbeliever. Of course animals do not have a soul like humans but I would be content to know that animal spirit continues in some form, even if I never saw the animals in the spiritual world. And what about plants? In NDE experiences people see nature pastoral scenes… Are those just imaginary? Abdu’l-Baha said: “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

So maybe plants and animals take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.
Well on that topic, I must first repeat the same quote I just quoted:

"In the world of dreams the body becomes absolutely passive, but the spirit still functions actively, possessed of all susceptibilities. This leads to the conclusion that the life of the spirit is neither conditional nor dependent upon the life of the body. At most it can be said that the body is a mere garment utilized by the spirit. If that garment be destroyed, the wearer is not affected but is, in fact, protected." (Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 259.)

The capacity for dreaming, Abdu'l-Baha states clearly here, is a proof of a spirit that transcends the death of the body. Ergo any animal capable of dreaming is an animal that has an existence past death.

There is a quote where Abdu'l-Baha states that a dog does not possess the same soul as a human, but just because a dog doesn't have the same soul, I'd say that wouldn't necessarily mean that the dog's soul doesn't persist past death, as its dreaming serves as evidence for.

Also you bring up one of the quotes where Abdu'l-Baha talks about "Plant Souls", "Animal Souls", and "Human Souls". What's important to evaluate in such quotes is that he is speaking in terms of Aristotle's classification of life, terms his audience would have been familiar with, much like how Baha'u'llah wrote the Seven Valleys in the terms of Sufi philosophy that would be understood by that audience.

In this system: A "plant soul" is merely the ability to eat and grow. An "animal soul" is the ability to gain sensory input and react to it. And a "human soul" is the what we typically think of when we say "soul". Humans have all three souls, plant, animal, and human. The names Aristotle chose for these three qualities are not perfect. It means that certain plants, like the venus fly trap, have "animal souls", and certain animals like the sea sponge do not have "animal souls", so one can't really equate modern scientific classifications of "plant", "animal", and "human" as a one-to-one relationship with Aristotle's souls of the same name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
In the Writings it says that for everything in this world there is a counterpart in the next world. I really do not understand what that means and the quote from Abdu’l-Baha in PUP did not answer it…. “Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.” I assume that means living things and not man-made things like houses and cars … Does that mean everything here is just like a photograph of what is there which is the true reality?… so nothing physical is real… it is just an image… That would fit with what Baha’u’llah wrote:
I wonder if it could be understood in this way:

I think all art is a reflection of the artist.

In that understanding, then, the whole of Creation would be, in a sense, a reflection of God.

In this sense even then a manmade thing like a house could have a heavenly counterpart, as the house is the reflection of the architect, the house's creator, and the architect in turn is a reflection of God, the architect's creator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
“O My servants! There shineth nothing else in Mine heart except the unfading light of the Morn of Divine guidance, and out of My mouth proceedeth naught but the essence of truth, which the Lord your God hath revealed. Follow not, therefore, your earthly desires, and violate not the Covenant of God, nor break your pledge to Him. With firm determination, with the whole affection of your heart, and with the full force of your words, turn ye unto Him, and walk not in the ways of the foolish. The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329

Yet look at how many people believe this world is the so important… hmmmmmm. They actually live for it.
Well artistically I am inclined towards surrealism, so of course I agree of the inherent inferiority of the world of reality to those greater worlds out there.

Last edited by Walrus; 01-26-2018 at 06:49 AM.
 
Old 01-27-2018, 04:35 PM   #14
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Well on that topic, I must first repeat the same quote I just quoted:

"In the world of dreams the body becomes absolutely passive, but the spirit still functions actively, possessed of all susceptibilities. This leads to the conclusion that the life of the spirit is neither conditional nor dependent upon the life of the body. At most it can be said that the body is a mere garment utilized by the spirit. If that garment be destroyed, the wearer is not affected but is, in fact, protected." (Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 259.)

The capacity for dreaming, Abdu'l-Baha states clearly here, is a proof of a spirit that transcends the death of the body. Ergo any animal capable of dreaming is an animal that has an existence past death.

There is a quote where Abdu'l-Baha states that a dog does not possess the same soul as a human, but just because a dog doesn't have the same soul, I'd say that wouldn't necessarily mean that the dog's soul doesn't persist past death, as its dreaming serves as evidence for.
Thank you, thank you, thank you... As I now recall a good Baha’i friend of mine on the Planet Baha’i forum once told me this about dreams of animals but at that time I was not in a receptive mood and he did not explain it as succinctly as you did so it did not take. He is a dog lover and he believes animals have an afterlife. I am a cat lover and we now know that cats dream.

Are you referring to this quote, and is this authoritative Writings?

“When asked about the individual persistence of the animal’s personality after death, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said: “Even the most developed dog has not the immortal soul of the man; yet the dog is perfect in its own place. You do not quarrel with a rose-tree because it cannot sing!” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London

Sure, the dog does not have the same immortal soul as man because it cannot “know and love God” but that does not mean its spirit does not persist past death. Did Abdul-Baha not know the answer to this question or did he just avoid answering it?
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Well artistically I am inclined towards surrealism, so of course I agree of the inherent inferiority of the world of reality to those greater worlds out there.
Do you mean the mortal world of dust? I go by the following quote and ones like it because that is what Baha’u’llah wrote. If Baha'u'llah is infallible, well.... One cannot have it both ways.

“By the righteousness of God! The world and its vanities, and its glory, and whatever delights it can offer, are all, in the sight of God, as worthless as, nay, even more contemptible than, dust and ashes. Would that the hearts of men could comprehend it! Cleanse yourselves thoroughly, O people of Bahá, from the defilement of the world, and of all that pertaineth unto it. God Himself beareth Me witness. The things of the earth ill beseem you. Cast them away unto such as may desire them, and fasten your eyes upon this most holy and effulgent Vision.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 304
 
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