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Old 02-07-2018, 11:25 PM   #1
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The Bab and Baha'u'llah

I have been posting to Christians on other forums and I said that the Bab means the Gate and Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God and that fulfills certain prophecies in the OT. One woman said: which came first, the chicken or the egg? That is a legitimate question. Theoretically, if they were false prophets, they could have taken those names or someone in on the conspiracy could have given them those names to make it look like they fulfill the OT prophecies... So it does not really matter HOW they got those names, logically speaking. I still wonder how they got those names... Does anyone know?

Of course it is much more difficult to explain how the World Centre of the Baha’i Faith got atop Mt Carmel, fulfilling so many OT prophecies.
 
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Old 02-08-2018, 12:11 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
I have been posting to Christians on other forums and I said that the Bab means the Gate and Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God and that fulfills certain prophecies in the OT. One woman said: which came first, the chicken or the egg? That is a legitimate question. Theoretically, if they were false prophets, they could have taken those names or someone in on the conspiracy could have given them those names to make it look like they fulfill the OT prophecies... So it does not really matter HOW they got those names, logically speaking. I still wonder how they got those names... Does anyone know?

Of course it is much more difficult to explain how the World Centre of the Baha’i Faith got atop Mt Carmel, fulfilling so many OT prophecies.
The Bab gave himself that title, but what it means is that He was the gate to He Whom God shall make Manifest. He didn't give Himself that title to fulfill prophecy as far as I know.

At Badasht Baha'u'llah secretly gave people a new name. He gave Quddus and Tahirah their names. He also gave Himself the name Baha. But some background on why He gave Himself that name. In the Qur'an there were 99 attributes of God. It was said there was another attribute that wasn't in the Qur'an that was the greatest name of God. That name was Baha, which means glory or splendor.
 
Old 02-08-2018, 01:21 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
I have been posting to Christians on other forums and I said that the Bab means the Gate and Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God and that fulfills certain prophecies in the OT.
So that prophecy in specific: Ezekiel 43:4 "The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the east gate."

This is a prophecy that was fulfilled by Jesus when he entered Jerusalem through the eastern entrance. Christians and Muslims believe that this prophecy was already fulfilled, long before the advent of the Bab.

It only is a verse that can be applied to the Baha'i Faith if we take into account 'Abdu'l-Bahá's teachings that one verse can have many symbolic meanings to them.

Basically the prophecy was already fulfilled, before even the time of Muhammad.

So why do I bring that up??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
One woman said: which came first, the chicken or the egg? That is a legitimate question. Theoretically, if they were false prophets, they could have taken those names or someone in on the conspiracy could have given them those names to make it look like they fulfill the OT prophecies... So it does not really matter HOW they got those names, logically speaking.
The reason I bring it up is because, given the history of that prophecy, theoretically a false prophet would not want to try to give themselves that name to appear like the fulfillment of prophecy.

If you are a false prophet, then taking on these names will pretty much convince no one. Why?? Because as far as anyone knows, that bible prophecy is already fulfilled.

You'd need to convince people that there can be more than one fulfillment of the same prophecy, which as far as I know is a new belief.

Which means that only people you've already converted and accepted your word would take it to be a proof of something.

Plus if you're in Muslim society, why pick a name with Old Testament prophecy roots?? Especially since most of that society thus believes the Old Testament is subject to corruption??

If you are going to try to fit your name into a prophecy, the best course of action for a false prophet in such a society would be to try to pick a name that references the Quran or Hadith, as that would be more convincing then an obscure, Old Testament prophecy that was already fulfilled nearly two-thousand years in the past.

And neither the Bab nor Baha'u'llah ever brought up the fact that their names fit this prophecy, to my knowledge. I've only ever seen it when other Baha'is noticed the synchronicity, pointed it out to 'Abdu'l-Baha who confirmed it is a possible interpretation of the prophecy.

So my argument against them simply picking the names to fulfill a prophecy is in full: It'd be an objectively terrible plan to try to trick a Muslim society by fitting your names into an Old Testament prophecy that was already fulfilled and then also never mentioning the correlation between your names and the prophecy to anyone.

It'd be such a flawed plan, it is almost laughable to consider it a possibility that it was such a scheme.

Last edited by Walrus; 02-08-2018 at 01:23 PM.
 
Old 02-08-2018, 08:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
So that prophecy in specific: Ezekiel 43:4 "The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the east gate."

This is a prophecy that was fulfilled by Jesus when he entered Jerusalem through the eastern entrance. Christians and Muslims believe that this prophecy was already fulfilled, long before the advent of the Bab.
So, if this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus, then Jesus is the glory of the LORD. This is problematic if Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Glory of God, or even if Bahais claim that Baha'u'llah was the Glory of God. Are both Jesus and Baha'u'llah the Glory of God? I am now confused.
 
Old 02-08-2018, 08:30 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Duane View Post
The Bab gave himself that title, but what it means is that He was the gate to He Whom God shall make Manifest. He didn't give Himself that title to fulfill prophecy as far as I know.

At Badasht Baha'u'llah secretly gave people a new name. He gave Quddus and Tahirah their names. He also gave Himself the name Baha. But some background on why He gave Himself that name. In the Qur'an there were 99 attributes of God. It was said there was another attribute that wasn't in the Qur'an that was the greatest name of God. That name was Baha, which means glory or splendor.
Thanks Duane... I just saved that in a Word document for future reference.
I told Lewis last night, Duane would probably know... Duane knows everything.
 
Old 02-09-2018, 06:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
So, if this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus, then Jesus is the glory of the LORD. This is problematic if Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Glory of God, or even if Bahais claim that Baha'u'llah was the Glory of God. Are both Jesus and Baha'u'llah the Glory of God? I am now confused.
Well first on the name "Glory of God", it's like a title, right?

Most don't realize it, but the Bible makes gives the title of "Anointed One" to both Jesus and the Persian Zoroastrian Emperor Cyrus the Great, who liberated the Jews from captivity.

Or Matthew 5:9: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they (plural) will be called the sons of God."

So even the titles of "Son of God" and "Messiah/Anointed One" are titles conferred on multiple people.

It's like how there have been countless people bearing the title "King of Denmark".

As for multiple interpretations of the same prophecy: That's a common Baha'i idea that multiple people can fulfill the same prophetic role. It's why Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah were all in some sense the Second Coming of Jesus.

But keep in mind, there is no official Baha'i interpretation of Ezekiel 43:4, so it could be that it was just talking about Jesus and the fact that the words line up to the names of the Twin Manifestations is nothing more than a synchronicity.

Last edited by Walrus; 02-09-2018 at 06:47 AM.
 
Old 02-09-2018, 11:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Well first on the name "Glory of God", it's like a title, right?

Most don't realize it, but the Bible makes gives the title of "Anointed One" to both Jesus and the Persian Zoroastrian Emperor Cyrus the Great, who liberated the Jews from captivity.

Or Matthew 5:9: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they (plural) will be called the sons of God."

So even the titles of "Son of God" and "Messiah/Anointed One" are titles conferred on multiple people.

It's like how there have been countless people bearing the title "King of Denmark".

As for multiple interpretations of the same prophecy: That's a common Baha'i idea that multiple people can fulfill the same prophetic role. It's why Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah were all in some sense the Second Coming of Jesus.

But keep in mind, there is no official Baha'i interpretation of Ezekiel 43:4, so it could be that it was just talking about Jesus and the fact that the words line up to the names of the Twin Manifestations is nothing more than a synchronicity.
Thanks so much! I always learn so much from your posts.

I guess I was under the mistaken impression that Glory of God referred only to Baha’u’llah because His name means that in Arabic… Mind you, I am not at all proficient in the Bible; I only know what I have learned from looking up verses to post to Christians and Jews and from what William Sears wrote in Thief in the Night.

But now I see… Logically speaking, just because the name Baha’u’llah means Glory of God in Arabic does not mean that there cannot be anyone else or anything else so designated.

So I guess what you are saying is that the Glory of God could refer to Jesus or even other things that are not even people?

Okay, I know that Son of man refers to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah, but now I am wondering; who else does it refer to?

Muhammad and the Bab were the return of the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit), but were they the return of the Spirit of Jesus (just because Jesus also brought the Spirit of God/the Holy Spirit?) This is very confusing and I do not want to tell people things that are not accepted as Baha’i beliefs.

I have heard that Muhammad is the Comforter but Baha’u’llah is also the Comforter, so just because Muhammad did not do the specific things it says in John 14, 15, and 16, that does not mean He could not be the Comforter, logically speaking. I mean if the Comforter is the Holy Spirit and Muhammad (and even the Bab) brought the Holy Spirit then they could also be called a Comforter.

John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

John 16:12-13 “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

But I think only Baha’u’llah is the “designated” Spirit of truth mentioned in John 16:12-13 because only Baha’u’llah did this: he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come….. Or am I wrong?

Besides that, Baha’u’llah claims to be the Comforter and Spirit of truth in His Tablets… Do the Bab or Muhammad make any such claims?

The Messiah is the biggest issue at hand with this one Christian and most Christians…. They believe that ONLY Jesus is the Messiah and one Christian says that Jesus is the “King Messiah.”

I always say that Jesus was “a Messiah” because of what Abdu’l-Baha said, but that Jesus is not the Messiah of the latter days, not the Messiah that the Jews are waiting for… Is that right?
 
Old 02-10-2018, 01:19 AM   #8
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John the Baptist denied being Elijah, but Jesus said he (John) was Elijah.

This is because the person doesn't reappear like assumed by reincarnation, but rather the spiritual characteristics and purpose reappear and are not limited to one person or soul.

Also In Revelation: Christ will give "My" new name, very clearly saying he will not come as a person named Jesus, but the Divine Manifestation will be the same Spirit.

Consider likewise how God said to Moses as recorded in the OT something like "I send You as Myself and Aaron will be your prophet."
 
Old 02-10-2018, 11:11 AM   #9
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You said: Muhammad and the Bab were the return of the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit), but were they the return of the Spirit of Jesus (just because Jesus also brought the Spirit of God/the Holy Spirit?) This is very confusing and I do not want to tell people things that are not accepted as Baha’i beliefs.

No one is the return of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is separate. The Holy Spirit is sent by them, though. All could be considered the return of the other.

You said: Okay, I know that Son of man refers to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah, but now I am wondering; who else does it refer to?

Any Manifestation could be called the Son of man. Don't you remember the Iqan where Baha'u'llah says that Muhammad is the fulfillment of that prophecy that refers to the Son of man? Any title that any Manifestation has could be applied to all of the other Manifestations of God. Any Manifestation is the Son of God in the sense that Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus was called the Son of God, though, because of the virgin birth.

You siad: But I think only Baha’u’llah is the “designated” Spirit of truth mentioned in John 16:12-13 because only Baha’u’llah did this: he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come….. Or am I wrong?

Baha'u'llah didn't literally guide us into all truth, that is impossible because truth is infinite. The same could apply also to Muhammad and the Bab. They will guide us into all truth in the next world.
 
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