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Old 02-18-2018, 12:55 PM   #1
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Did Baha'u'llah receive a direct message from God?

Would we as Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah received a direct message from God?

The message came through the Holy Spirit, from the Maid of Heaven, but can we say it came from God directly?

I ask this because I am conversing with a man on a religious forum and I know he is going to ask me this, if Baha'u'llah got the message directly or if the Holy Spirit acted as an intermediary.
 
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:39 PM   #2
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Below is my understanding of the matter.

God effected the reality of The Glory of God to be the station of that Man for all to turn to in this age.

All imagery whether the burning bush before Moses, the dove descending from heaven upon Jesus or the maid of heaven are symbolic of the properties of the Messengers themselves and arise from their recognition of Their Creator manifesting His will in Them. They are in the Baha'i writing likened to the sun and it's rays, God the sun in this simile and the Manifestation the rays whereby we have evidence of the sun and its properties. In this way God is behind the Light of God's own Self- “His beauty hath no veiling save light, His face no covering save revelation.”. The emanating power falls on each thing and person according to its and their own station.

In truth no allusion or symbolism is adequate to describe God. Even the mightiest of the Manifestation, though powerful as can be appropriate in creation has accounted themselves as nothing compared to the One. Search the scriptures and you can find one and all humble before the Essence, though in their Unity They speak as the Essence would should it be constrained to speak in this contingent reality.
 
Old 02-18-2018, 03:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
...Baha'u'llah received a direct message from God? ...
The question of whether The Glory of God was God or a man is the same kind of question we need to confront with the Christ:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Resurrection of All Mankind
I. Jesus was God.
A. He who has seen Me has seen the Father. (John 14:9)
B. I and My Father are one. (John 10:30)
C. I am He (the Father). (John 13:19)
D. I am in the Father and the Father in Me. (John 14:11)
E. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. (John 12:45)

II. Jesus was also not God.
A. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who Is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared him. (John 1: 18)
B. I am going to the Father, for My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
C. I can of Mine own self do nothing...not My own will, but the will of the Father which has sent Me. (John 5:30)
D. I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (John 8:28)
E. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. (Matt 24:36) (If Jesus was God, Incarnate, He would know all God knows.)
F. And when He had sent them away, He departed into a mountain to pray. (Mk 6:46) (Does Jesus pray to Himself?)
G. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? (Mk 15:34)...
Jesus made it clear that after He was gone the rest of His message would come as God would speak directly to us:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John 16:12
12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ...
pse let me know if this was useful.
 
Old 02-18-2018, 11:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EphemeralVapor View Post
Below is my understanding of the matter.

God effected the reality of The Glory of God to be the station of that Man for all to turn to in this age.

All imagery whether the burning bush before Moses, the dove descending from heaven upon Jesus or the maid of heaven are symbolic of the properties of the Messengers themselves and arise from their recognition of Their Creator manifesting His will in Them. They are in the Baha'i writing likened to the sun and it's rays, God the sun in this simile and the Manifestation the rays whereby we have evidence of the sun and its properties. In this way God is behind the Light of God's own Self- “His beauty hath no veiling save light, His face no covering save revelation.”. The emanating power falls on each thing and person according to its and their own station.

In truth no allusion or symbolism is adequate to describe God. Even the mightiest of the Manifestation, though powerful as can be appropriate in creation has accounted themselves as nothing compared to the One. Search the scriptures and you can find one and all humble before the Essence, though in their Unity They speak as the Essence would should it be constrained to speak in this contingent reality.
Thanks, that was very helpful. There are indeed many ways of trying to understand these things that are really beyond our understanding.
 
Old 02-18-2018, 11:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete in Panama View Post
The question of whether The Glory of God was God or a man is the same kind of question we need to confront with the Christ:
Jesus made it clear that after He was gone the rest of His message would come as God would speak directly to us: pse let me know if this was useful.
Thanks that was really helpful and I saved it for future reference.

One question I had, why do you think that John 16:12 means that God will speak to us directly?
 
Old 02-19-2018, 12:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
Thanks that was really helpful and I saved it for future reference.

One question I had, why do you think that John 16:12 means that God will speak to us directly?
Baha'u'llah did indeed come with scripture in the Voice of God more than Jesus appeared to... However this should not be construed that Jesus did not speak with that Authority, only that more of it was written down and more of being necessary for the greatness of this age - that greatness being none other than broader humility and compliance in unity with the Voice of God.

Such is my view.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 06:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
Would we as Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah received a direct message from God?

The message came through the Holy Spirit, from the Maid of Heaven, but can we say it came from God directly?

I ask this because I am conversing with a man on a religious forum and I know he is going to ask me this, if Baha'u'llah got the message directly or if the Holy Spirit acted as an intermediary.
My understanding is this:

Yes...

And no...

With the "spirit companions", as we could call them, to the prophets I'd speculate it is something like this.

God is Infinite. There is no being that could fully comprehend that infinity.

Thus it is necessity that God show himself in forms that the human mind could understand, hence the appearance of the various spiritual entities that give the individual prophet their divine link.

So yes, the message is from God directly, but God takes a form that is "comprehensible" to a mortal, since even a Prophet can only go so far in understanding God (symbolized by the Lote-Tree-Beyond-Which-There-Is-No-Passing), and no one can fully comprehend an infinite being.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 07:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
...why do you think that John 16:12 means that God will speak to us directly?
please help me out of you're seeing something that I'm missing, but it was the part about--
Quote:
Originally Posted by John 16:12
“...will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak...
--that strikes me as being a distinction between God's word from the Son and His word directly from the Father himself. Many say this idea is reinforced in the parable of the Landlord and the wicked tenants--
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 21:37-40 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
...he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”...
--and even more clarified when The Glory of God spoke as the Father:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The World Order of Baha'u'llah
..."He it is," referring to Himself He further proclaims, "Who in the Old Testament hath been named Jehovah, Who in the Gospel hath been designated as the Spirit of Truth...
When I first saw that I got goosebumps.
 
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