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Old 04-23-2018, 12:49 AM   #1
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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What does the Future Hold?

Having looked through a Through Pilgrim notes again, it does appear that we are going to face a world changing calamity.

As we know the Guardian Shoghi Effendi told us not to dwell on these talks He gave to Pilgrims, but to get on with the work of teaching the Faith and for the Bahai's to get out of cities and pioneer.

I can not help but to reflect that quite a few of these recorded recollections are showing a picture of we have of the world in our day.

The Note of 1957 are of interest. It was the last year of Shoghi Effendi's Life and a few of the talks were very heart felt. It was recorded by Isobel Sabri; "As soon as the Guardian had left the dinner table that night Ruhiyyih Khanum told us that she had never before heard the Guardian speak so strongly and feeling to the pilgrims as he had that evening on the above subjects"

Passages such as this hit home hard;

"...The American people are too fond of their central heaters, their comforts. They are not willing to sacrifice. Victories come only through self-abnegation and sacrifice. The American believers should not only leave their homes and go pioneering; they should go as far away as possible — to the other ends of the earth. Otherwise they will go as refugees — bankrupt both materially and spiritually. The Bahá'ís should be willing to lower their standard of living in order to teach and serve the Faith. The Americans already have far too high a standard of living.

There is a great distinction between pioneering and dispersal. In the past I appealed to the American Bahá'ís to pioneer — to arise and sacrifice for the sake of the Faith and to meet the needs of the Faith. But when I saw that they did not respond to my appeals and saw in what danger they were, as a loving father I advised them to save themselves. I urged them to disperse to the farthest corners of the earth — and to take with them all those things which they love more than the Faith: their money, their cars, they refrigerators — their wives! (His eyes lit up with amusement and triumph as he added "wives!") But this is dispersal, and it is very different from pioneering which is done with sacrifice and for the love of the Faith."

On this day in 1957 23rd April... "..When Amatu'l-Baha Ruhiyyih Khanum arrived at the Western Pilgrim House for dinner, she told the pilgrims that the Guardian, during his meeting with the Persian women pilgrims just ended, had been asked if the hydrogen bomb would be used. He had replied, "Yes." Ruhiyyih Khanum said that that question had not been asked of the Guardian before; and as it was an important question, she thought we would be interested in the Guardian's reply..."

So given the current world affairs, I found this section of great interest as it says we will be able to see in the news that events are at a critical juncture in the fate of humanity;

"...A retributive calamity which will be worse than war will come. It will appear suddenly — not by degrees. It will take place in the twinkling of an eye. You will go to bed one night; and when you wake up in the morning, it will be all over. You will know when it is coming. You will read about it in the newspapers and hear about it on the radio. You will recognize the signs of its coming. Read the newspaper editorial pages. The interpretation of the news is what is important.

The northern hemisphere will suffer most. There will be large areas of the earth that become uninhabitable — unarable. The southern continents will become more important in the future.

North America will be the worst affected — especially the United States. The Bahá'ís should not think that they have any special protection simply because they are Bahá'ís. Their only protection is in their dedication to the Faith. The homes of the American Bahá'ís will evaporate over-night. They will become refugees to other continents.

(Turning specifically to me, he continued) Kampala will be safe — so long as they don't build American air bases in Kenya. The foothills of the Himalayas Mountains will also be safe.

You have trouble getting enough pioneers for Africa, but at that time the believers will come to Africa happily. They will come as refugees — nothing in their hands. And they will be only too happy to come. You will have more help than you ever dreamed possible.

Russia will also suffer. When the Russians gain military equality with America, America will be trapped. Both the Russian system and the American system are wrong. Both are materialistic. Both are to be condemned by the Bahá'ís. The Russians have a system of control by the proletariat. America has a system of control by the capitalists. Both are wrong...."

Then we get the balance as to why we do not dwell on the above and that no Pilgrim note can be seen as authoritative, as this was also recorded;

"...The Lesser Peace will come in the Formative Age, in this century. The unified outer world must be merged with the Bahá'í World Order. This will begin the spiritualization of the world. The world must be spiritualized. The Golden Age will appear towards the end of the Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh. Then the World Civilization will be born and will extend over a period of 500,000 years. The Golden Age of Bahá'u'lláh is only the birth of the World Civilization. After the World Order has been established, the Golden Age will come, and the World Civilization will be born.

(The Guardian was asked a question concerning whether or not the next Manifestation of God would be opposed by the people of the world, as had Bahá'u'lláh and all former Messengers of God.) In the future, when the next Manifestation appears, the Guardian of the Cause at that time will tell the believers who the Manifestation is and will call on them to accept Him. What is the use of the infallibility of the Guardian if he does not do this? This is one of the very important things that he will do. Opposition to the next Manifestation will thus be much less than in former times — that is to say, the area of opposition will be reduced. "This is the day that shall not be followed by night" means that divine guidance will not again be withdrawn from the world. This civilization which we are beginning to build now will not decline. Other Manifestations will change the institutions and the laws, but there will be no decline. The earth will be the footstool of the throne of God. The throne is in heaven and the footstool on earth."

Well that was interesting, was it not?

Source of above notes - https://bahai-library.com/sabri_pilgrims_notes

Regards Tony
 
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Old 04-23-2018, 02:33 AM   #2
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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I find it interesting that the 1954 Notes of Ruhaniyyih Ruth Moffett also say much the same thing as to a world calamity, so the advice had not changed in 3 years;

"There will be a world civil war and after that a great unification."

"They should leave the great cities and disperse that the Faith may grow and save mankind. Those who do not respond will loose everything, London, Paris, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, will all be bombed! Yes, they will evaporate! Everything!.....Shoghi Effendi said that he had been told that some of the friends are disturbed over reports brought back by the pilgrims concerning the dangers facing America in the future whenever another world conflagration breaks out. He says that he does not feel that the Bahá'ís should waste time dwelling on the dark side of things. Any intelligent person can understand from the experiences of the past world war, and keeping abreast of what modern science has developed in the way of weapons for any future war, that big cities all over the world are going to be in tremendous danger. This is what the Guardian said to the pilgrims...."

This was in these notes;

"..One night the Guardian said, "Pilgrim notes are very important. They should be eagerly received as they bring the Spirit of the Shrines, and the station of the Guardianship, and the first-hand impressions which the cablegrams and letters cannot convey. Of course they cannot be authoritative, as they are not written by the Master or the Guardian, but they are very important, and should be so considered....."

https://bahai-library.com/moffett_pilgrims_notes

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-23-2018, 06:00 AM   #3
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I do not personally trust the pilgrims notes of Isobel Sabri. Nor any of the few who report dire, apocalyptic warnings.

My argument against their validity is merely this: Shoghi Effendi is not an evil man. If he had a message as great as this he would not rely on Pilgrim Notes to get it out, especially since he tells us Pilgrim Notes are not authoritative.

Since he is not evil, since he told us not to rely on Pilgrim Notes as authoritative, and since this Pilgrim Note reports matters of such importance, I can only conclude if Shoghi Effendi wished to give such warnings he would have done so. To the whole community, speaking in no unclear terms, through an authoritative means. He wouldn't have merely told a dinner party and relied on word-of-mouth to get the word out, that idea doesn't make any sense.

Abdu'l-Baha didn't rely on word of mouth to warn of WWI, he traveled the world trying to get the message out.

Last edited by Walrus; 04-23-2018 at 06:04 AM.
 
Old 04-23-2018, 11:44 AM   #4
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
I do not personally trust the pilgrims notes of Isobel Sabri. Nor any of the few who report dire, apocalyptic warnings.

My argument against their validity is merely this: Shoghi Effendi is not an evil man. If he had a message as great as this he would not rely on Pilgrim Notes to get it out, especially since he tells us Pilgrim Notes are not authoritative.

Since he is not evil, since he told us not to rely on Pilgrim Notes as authoritative, and since this Pilgrim Note reports matters of such importance, I can only conclude if Shoghi Effendi wished to give such warnings he would have done so. To the whole community, speaking in no unclear terms, through an authoritative means. He wouldn't have merely told a dinner party and relied on word-of-mouth to get the word out, that idea doesn't make any sense.

Abdu'l-Baha didn't rely on word of mouth to warn of WWI, he traveled the world trying to get the message out.
I find it interestimg that many pilgrim notes have these same comments, from a wide variety of beleivers.

I am not sure why one would consider stern heart felt warnings as evil?

Personally I see no evil in any of these notes, but I do see the passion of frustration. That frustration being that the Baha'is as a majority had and still have not seen and reacted to the call of Baha'u'llah with the required urgency.

This continues to this day, I am part of those that did not see that urgency with the passion it did deserve.

I would put the passion of those Pilgrim notes down to the time the talks were given, the world had witnessed what destruction man can do to another with a war that should have ended all wars.

Now from the way I see it, a world changing calamity is inevitable. Man has not chosen to implement the required change. I say this from my intetest in town planning and my thoughts about the layout of the ideal Baha'i Community. Wity the house of Worship being the centre point and all support and welfare surrounding it. This can not happen unless the rebuilding of our civilization in all areas is undertaken.

I also look at what mans imagination portrays in drama, as one will note futuristic drama plays out into reality in many ways. The rebuilding of broken civilisations is popular theme in futuristic drama.

It is also a warning in the Baha'i Writings direct from the pens of Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi.

So in the end the question remains; what does the future hold?

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-23-2018, 12:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
I find it interestimg that many pilgrim notes have these same comments, from a wide variety of beleivers.

I am not sure why one would consider stern heart felt warnings as evil?
Ah, sorry, I was not clear.

I wouldn't find such warnings as evil. 'Abdu'l-Baha gave such warnings, after all.

But if I for example, had access to foreknowledge of a major impending tragedy, one that would destroy a whole hemisphere, and in addition to that, I had a position of power or authority, I would think it a duty to use that position to give warning of this event in an official capacity.

I would think that only telling a few people and hoping that they disseminate the information would inexcusably irresponsible.

After all, when 'Abdu'l-Baha had forewarning of the First World War, he told everyone. He toured Europe and America to warn everyone he could to stay out of the upcoming Armageddon!! He was not heeded in most places, but he still told everyone, within his authoritative position, and took action to prepare the Baha'i Community for the coming disaster.

If 'Abdu'l-Baha had merely told a few people about the coming world war, that would have been woefully irresponsible.

And so I cannot fathom a scenario in which the Guardian, who is given the infallible duty to guard and protect the Faith, has foreknowledge of a disaster that will wipe out half the planet, and yet does nothing in his official capacity to warn the Community, outside of telling a handful of individuals. 'Abdu'l-Baha didn't act that recklessly with his warnings, so I can't imagine Shoghi Effendi would either.

Also, keep in mind what Shoghi Effendi says himself through his secretary: "Shoghi Effendi has often said that the notes of the pilgrims should be for their own personal use and bear absolutely no authority. What he desires to convey to the friends at large he will always say in his general letters." (I have emphasized the portion of this quote I believe proves he would have released a letter if he had such a dire prediction of imminent danger)
 
Old 04-23-2018, 12:58 PM   #6
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Ah, sorry, I was not clear.

I wouldn't find such warnings as evil. 'Abdu'l-Baha gave such warnings, after all.

But if I for example, had access to foreknowledge of a major impending tragedy, one that would destroy a whole hemisphere, and in addition to that, I had a position of power or authority, I would think it a duty to use that position to give warning of this event in an official capacity.

I would think that only telling a few people and hoping that they disseminate the information would inexcusably irresponsible.

After all, when 'Abdu'l-Baha had forewarning of the First World War, he told everyone. He toured Europe and America to warn everyone he could to stay out of the upcoming Armageddon!! He was not heeded in most places, but he still told everyone, within his authoritative position, and took action to prepare the Baha'i Community for the coming disaster.

If 'Abdu'l-Baha had merely told a few people about the coming world war, that would have been woefully irresponsible.

And so I cannot fathom a scenario in which the Guardian, who is given the infallible duty to guard and protect the Faith, has foreknowledge of a disaster that will wipe out half the planet, and yet does nothing in his official capacity to warn the Community, outside of telling a handful of individuals. 'Abdu'l-Baha didn't act that recklessly with his warnings, so I can't imagine Shoghi Effendi would either.

Also, keep in mind what Shoghi Effendi says himself through his secretary: "Shoghi Effendi has often said that the notes of the pilgrims should be for their own personal use and bear absolutely no authority. What he desires to convey to the friends at large he will always say in his general letters." (I have emphasized the portion of this quote I believe proves he would have released a letter if he had such a dire prediction of imminent danger)
I suppose I see it not as black and white. We could say Baha'u'llah knew of the future, yet what we find written about the two world wars and the world of terrorism we now live in, is not in any great detail. In fact if you offer many of the Prophecies of Baha'u'llah outside of this Faith, no one gives them any credit of telling us firmly of those events.

I see these passionate table talks within the official writings of Shoghi Effendi. I see the passionate table talks as directed and motivating those that heard them on a personal level. When the same talk is given officially to the community as a whole the balance is given considering many would not have Faith to hear this advuce on such passionate terms.

Indeed, these notes used to be hard for me to read at one time, but I see them in a different light now. When we talk of these subjects between Baha'is we can put these thoughts forward, one has great optomisim that these events will lead to the Unity of Humanity. If we talk to others we moderate the thoughts to ensure that no negativity is seen in what is offered.

These are some of the official writings on the Calamity;

https://bahai.works/Lights_of_Guidan...ies_and_Crisis

427. Calamities Will Continue Until Mankind is Chastened Sufficiently…

"You make reference to calamities and request specific answers if there are any as to when they may occur and with what magnitude. The House of Justice noted your comments that you have read what Bahá’u’lláh had to say about the collapse of the old world order and the coming of the new, and that in recent times friends returning from their pilgrimages spoke of meetings with Hands of the Cause and members of the House of Justice in which the coming of great world upheavals was related to a time 'around the end of the Five Year Plan and afterwards'. The House of Justice points out that calamities have been and are occurring and will continue to happen until mankind has been chastened sufficiently to accept the Manifestation for this day. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá anticipated that the Lesser Peace could be established before the end of the twentieth century. However, Bahá’ís should not be diverted from the work of the Cause by the fear of catastrophes but should try to understand why they occur. The beloved Guardian, in innumerable places, has explained the reasons for these occurrences, and since they happen from time to time as explained above we should not be concerned as to when they occur."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, April 15, 1976)

Thus the Pilgrim notes assist us in this knowledge. We as Baha'is play a part in the Calamity by not responding as required to the Message of Baha'u'llah.

I have found there is response to the message, then there is response and then there is response, unlimited times, we can never do enough, we would be as Abdul, baha was.

We must push harder, Little by Little day by day.

My wife and I have been remote Baha'i for many a year. I guess going through Ridvan without elections for a community, or even seeing other Baha'i come this way for many years, shows there is a problem to be addressed both personal and as a community.

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-23-2018, 05:30 PM   #7
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Tony wrote in Post # 1 in part:

Quote:
The Note of 1957 are of interest. It was the last year of Shoghi Effendi's Life and a few of the talks were very heart felt. It was recorded by Isobel Sabri; . . . . Well that was interesting, was it not?
Thank you Tony. I have read and pondered on the notes of Isobel Sabri and the notes of others reporting similar themes numerous times over the years. They are interesting indeed, as they should be, otherwise Shoghi Effendi would not have written through his secretary that “(w)hile these notes taken down by the pilgrims do not constitute as official pronouncements made by the Guardian, and therefore should not be imposed on the friends, those who wish to share them with the members of the Community should, under no circumstances, be prevented from doing so. Though not strictly official, and in some instances inaccurate and misleading, these notes, as experience has shown, can be of tremendous help, guidance and inspiration to many individual believers, and their value as such should therefore be readily admitted." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 28, 1939) And “(r)egarding the notes taken by pilgrims at Haifa. The Guardian has stated that he is unwilling to sign the notes of any pilgrim, in order that the literature consulted by the believers shall not be unduly extended... This means that the notes of pilgrims do not carry the authority resident in the Guardian's letters written over his own signature. On the other hand each pilgrim brings back information and suggestions of a most precious character, and it is the privilege of all the friends to share in the spiritual results of these visits." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States: Bahá'í News, No. 281, p. 4, July 1954)

I do not find these April 1957 notes of Isobel Sabri to be out of alignment with what Shogi Effendi actually did write in his letter dated April 1957 stating: “Against the background of these afflictive disturbances--the turmoil and tribulations of a travailing age--we may well ponder the portentous prophecies uttered well-nigh fourscore years ago, by the Author of our Faith, as well as the dire predictions made by Him Who is the unerring Interpreter of His teachings, all foreshadowing a universal commotion, of a scope and intensity unparalleled in the annals of mankind.

‘The violent derangement of the world's equilibrium; the trembling that will seize the limbs of mankind; the radical transformation of human society; the rolling up of the present-day Order; the fundamental changes affecting the structure of government; the weakening of the pillars of religion; the rise of dictatorships; the spread of tyranny; the fall of monarchies; the decline of ecclesiastical institutions; the increase of anarchy and chaos; the extension and consolidation of the Movement of the Left; the fanning into flame of the smouldering fire of racial strife; the development of infernal engines of war; the burning of cities; the contamination of the atmosphere of the earth--these stand out as the signs and portents that must either herald or accompany the retributive calamity which, as decreed by Him Who is the Judge and Redeemer of mankind, must, sooner or later, afflict a society which, for the most part, and for over a century, has turned a deaf ear to the Voice of God's Messenger in this day--a calamity which must purge the human race of the dross of its age-long corruptions, and weld its component parts into a firmly-knit world-embracing Fellowship --a Fellowship destined, in the fullness of time, to be incorporated in the framework, and to be galvanized by the spiritualizing influences, of a mysteriously expanding, divinely appointed Order, and to flower, in the course of future Dispensations, into a Civilization, the like of which mankind has, at no stage in its evolution, witnessed.

‘Parallel with this process of progressive deterioration in human affairs, now visibly gathering momentum outside the pale of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, and recalling the convulsions which, on a far more restricted scale, seized a declining empire in the opening centuries of the Christian era, far less spectacular in its manifestation, has been the process of integration, as demonstrated by the increasing cohesion, the multiplication, and the reinforcement of the foundations, of the institutions of the embryonic Bahá'í World Order, which, now, under the impact of the forces released by a World Spiritual Crusade, deriving its authority from the Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Bahá, and launched for the express purpose of executing the Divine Plan bequeathed by Him to His followers in the evening of His life, is contributing, unnoticed by a generation forgetful of its God, and already in the shadow of His Visitation, to the building up, slowly but irresistibly, of that Ark of human salvation, ordained as the ultimate haven of a society destined, for the most part, to be submerged by the tidal wave of the abuses and evils which its own perversity has engendered.”
(Messages to the Bahá'í World: 1950-1957, pp. 103 -104)

Thank you for your posts and for the opportunity to contribute.

-LR
 
Old 04-23-2018, 05:56 PM   #8
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Roofener View Post
Tony wrote in Post # 1 in part:



Thank you Tony. I have read and pondered on the notes of Isobel Sabri and the notes of others reporting similar themes numerous times over the years. They are interesting indeed, as they should be, otherwise Shoghi Effendi would not have written through his secretary that “(w)hile these notes taken down by the pilgrims do not constitute as official pronouncements made by the Guardian, and therefore should not be imposed on the friends, those who wish to share them with the members of the Community should, under no circumstances, be prevented from doing so. Though not strictly official, and in some instances inaccurate and misleading, these notes, as experience has shown, can be of tremendous help, guidance and inspiration to many individual believers, and their value as such should therefore be readily admitted." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 28, 1939) And “(r)egarding the notes taken by pilgrims at Haifa. The Guardian has stated that he is unwilling to sign the notes of any pilgrim, in order that the literature consulted by the believers shall not be unduly extended... This means that the notes of pilgrims do not carry the authority resident in the Guardian's letters written over his own signature. On the other hand each pilgrim brings back information and suggestions of a most precious character, and it is the privilege of all the friends to share in the spiritual results of these visits." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States: Bahá'í News, No. 281, p. 4, July 1954)

I do not find these April 1957 notes of Isobel Sabri to be out of alignment with what Shogi Effendi actually did write in his letter dated April 1957 stating: “Against the background of these afflictive disturbances--the turmoil and tribulations of a travailing age--we may well ponder the portentous prophecies uttered well-nigh fourscore years ago, by the Author of our Faith, as well as the dire predictions made by Him Who is the unerring Interpreter of His teachings, all foreshadowing a universal commotion, of a scope and intensity unparalleled in the annals of mankind.

‘The violent derangement of the world's equilibrium; the trembling that will seize the limbs of mankind; the radical transformation of human society; the rolling up of the present-day Order; the fundamental changes affecting the structure of government; the weakening of the pillars of religion; the rise of dictatorships; the spread of tyranny; the fall of monarchies; the decline of ecclesiastical institutions; the increase of anarchy and chaos; the extension and consolidation of the Movement of the Left; the fanning into flame of the smouldering fire of racial strife; the development of infernal engines of war; the burning of cities; the contamination of the atmosphere of the earth--these stand out as the signs and portents that must either herald or accompany the retributive calamity which, as decreed by Him Who is the Judge and Redeemer of mankind, must, sooner or later, afflict a society which, for the most part, and for over a century, has turned a deaf ear to the Voice of God's Messenger in this day--a calamity which must purge the human race of the dross of its age-long corruptions, and weld its component parts into a firmly-knit world-embracing Fellowship --a Fellowship destined, in the fullness of time, to be incorporated in the framework, and to be galvanized by the spiritualizing influences, of a mysteriously expanding, divinely appointed Order, and to flower, in the course of future Dispensations, into a Civilization, the like of which mankind has, at no stage in its evolution, witnessed.

‘Parallel with this process of progressive deterioration in human affairs, now visibly gathering momentum outside the pale of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, and recalling the convulsions which, on a far more restricted scale, seized a declining empire in the opening centuries of the Christian era, far less spectacular in its manifestation, has been the process of integration, as demonstrated by the increasing cohesion, the multiplication, and the reinforcement of the foundations, of the institutions of the embryonic Bahá'í World Order, which, now, under the impact of the forces released by a World Spiritual Crusade, deriving its authority from the Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Bahá, and launched for the express purpose of executing the Divine Plan bequeathed by Him to His followers in the evening of His life, is contributing, unnoticed by a generation forgetful of its God, and already in the shadow of His Visitation, to the building up, slowly but irresistibly, of that Ark of human salvation, ordained as the ultimate haven of a society destined, for the most part, to be submerged by the tidal wave of the abuses and evils which its own perversity has engendered.”
(Messages to the Bahá'í World: 1950-1957, pp. 103 -104)

Thank you for your posts and for the opportunity to contribute.

-LR
Thank you Larry, a friend and I were discussing quotes such as these just the other day in relation to the Pilgrim notes and we came to a conclusion they are worthy of consideration.

I thought I would.spend more time back on this Forum.

I did note in these notes that the Guardian was expecting that there would still be a Guardian when the next Messenger came, I can see your interest in this subject.

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-23-2018, 06:58 PM   #9
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Tony wrote:

Quote:
Thank you Larry, a friend and I were discussing quotes such as these just the other day in relation to the Pilgrim notes and we came to a conclusion they are worthy of consideration.

I thought I would.spend more time back on this Forum.

I did note in these notes that the Guardian was expecting that there would still be a Guardian when the next Messenger came, I can see your interest in this subject.

Regards Tony

Hi Tony:

Having read Isobel Sabri’s pilgrim notes numerous times, I am familiar that she reported that Shoghi Effendi spoke of the Guardianship and its role well into the future, but I exercised my restraint ( - humor ) in an attempt to stay focused on the main topic. But now that you have brought it up ( - humor), there are several references to the future of the Guardianship in the pilgrim's notes of many others too. One very similar example can be found in the notes of Valera Allen, who was on pilgrimage with her husband John Allen in December of 1954. She describes that “The Guardian was asked if the meaning of the verse in the Bible "the day that would not be followed by night" meant that succeeding Manifestations would not be persecuted but immediately accepted by the people. He answered, ‘No, there will always be evil in the world and doubtless the succeeding Manifestations would be persecuted though in a lesser degree.’ The meaning of the verse was that the Guardians would be sources of guidance and protection for the Faith until the coming of the subsequent Manifestation which might not be for 6000 years although He might come any time after 1000 years — depending on need.”

But again, I do not want to derail this thread. Perhaps it is a worthy topic for another thread another time. Thanks Tony.

-LR
 
Old 04-23-2018, 09:29 PM   #10
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A most interesting and considered subject. I one may intersperse some further thoughts...

Many times when "we" speak of these matters, our focus remains only on what may be considered as "immediate future" - perfectly understandable, as there is the possibility that "it" may affect us. Yet, every moment, every event but leads to the greater glory of the human race and that wonderful time when the Most Great Peace engulfs all.

In Japan Will Turn Ablaze, we find on page 74 the following from Shoghi Effendi, speaking of words spoken by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

Quote:
What promises He gave us all regarding the future of the Cause in that land at the close of almost every supplication I read to Him! Let me state, straightway, the most emphatic, the most inspiring of them all. These are His very words, that still keep ringing in my ears; -- Japan will turn ablaze! Japan is endowed with a most remarkable capacity for the spread of the Cause of God! Japan, with another country (whose name He stated but bade us conceal it for the present) will take the lead in the spiritual reawakening of the peoples and nations that the world shall soon witness!"
Various other couple of apparently unconnected "things" allow one to take a quite educated guess as to who that other country is (so far as am aware, it has never been explicitly given). But only the future will positively identify that country to our gaze.

Speaking as a "white man", the suggestion in these Pilgrims Notes that the white race will be humbled and the black and brown skinned people come to the fore, I think it is clear and obvious that this humbling must occur. Pride and racial arrogance needs to be eliminated, and once abolished the ground has been laid for the true reconciliation of the races. There will no longer be a "third world" or a "first world", there will only be the world and all human beings as one species, as one race, as one mind and heart, with the human-built divisions forever banished and relegated to the history books. But note that, just as obviously, this rising to the fore will be a great test to the darker-skinned "races", and will also force upon them a certain need of self-examination.

Think of this statement from 'Abdu'l-Baha (locate in item 961 in Chapter 8 of "Baha'i-Scriptures" (https://www.miscellanie.com/allthete...es-ch08.html):

He who knows nothing of the wind, when he sees trees shaken does not know it is the wind which causes them to shake.

Indeed, when the trees are shaken, all will discover, in one way or another, that it is the wind and from whence this wind blows.

A very wise person once said to me: "The only free will we have is in how long it is going to take to get there." Consider carefully the number of times it is in the Authoritative Texts and works the Baha'i community has been told of the urgency of giving the Message, and that should "we" "fail" we merely prolong the agony. But the Master Surgeon knows intimately when the time is come to perform His Surgery and fully relieve the pain through which the human species travails. And then, the healing process takes place, comparatively a short period of time compared to the time during which pain was suffered, and the time when health is realised and the human species can return to active service.

I give to all my most warm greetings

Romane
 
Old 04-24-2018, 01:41 AM   #11
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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This is another interesting thought; https://bahai.works/Lights_of_Guidan...ies_and_Crisis

447. Stage of Purgation is Indispensable—Bahá’ís Should not Hope to Remain Unaffected

"… You seem to complain about the calamities that have befallen humanity. In the spiritual development of man a stage of purgation is indispensable, for it is while passing through it that the over-rated material needs are made to appear in their proper light. Unless society learns to attribute more importance to spiritual matters, it would never be fit to enter the golden era foretold by Bahá’u’lláh. The present calamities are parts of this process of purgation, through them alone will man learn his lesson. They are to teach the nations, that they have to view things internationally, they are to make the individual attribute more importance to his moral than his material welfare.

"In such a process of purgation, when all humanity is in the throes of dire suffering, the Bahá’ís should not hope to remain unaffected. Should we consider the beam that is in our own eye, we would immediately find that these sufferings are also meant for ourselves, who claimed to have attained. Such world crisis is necessary to awaken us to the importance of our duty and the carrying on of our task. Suffering will increase our energy in setting before humanity the road to salvation, it will move us from our repose for we are far from doing our best in teaching the Cause and conveying the Message with which we have been entrusted…."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer in reply to a letter dated October 14, 1931: Bahá’í News, No. 58, January 1932, p. 1)

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-24-2018, 01:48 AM   #12
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I think when we look at the Official Writings, we can now see that the Pilgrim Notes are reflected in the official letters;

445. Forces of a World Catastrophe—The Fire of Ordeal

"… That the forces of a world catastrophe can alone precipitate such a new phase of human thought is, alas, becoming increasingly apparent. That nothing short of the fire of a severe ordeal, unparalleled in its intensity, can fuse and weld the discordant entities that constitute the elements of present-day civilization, into the integral components of the world commonwealth of the future, is a truth which future events will increasingly demonstrate.

"… Nothing but a fiery ordeal, out of which humanity will emerge, chastened and prepared, can succeed in implanting that sense of responsibility which the leaders of a newborn age must arise to shoulder." (Shoghi Effendi: The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, , p. 46)


446. When Crisis Sweeps Over the World, Bahá’ís Should not Let Hardships Weaken Their Hope in the Future

"… When such a crisis sweeps over the world no person should hope to remain intact. We belong to an organic unit and when one part of the organism suffers all the rest of the body will feel its consequence. This is in fact the reason why Bahá’u’lláh calls our attention to the unity of mankind. But as Bahá’ís we should not let such hardship weaken our hope in the future…."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a Bahá’í family, April 14, 1932)

Dear friends, it is plain to see that our efforts need to be always considered. I have found life is always offering us the path to serve in a greater capacity.

I wish all well and happy in these times and the years to come. Regards Tony
 
Old 04-24-2018, 02:03 AM   #13
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Roofener View Post
Tony wrote:

Hi Tony:

Having read Isobel Sabri’s pilgrim notes numerous times, I am familiar that she reported that Shoghi Effendi spoke of the Guardianship and its role well into the future, but I exercised my restraint ( - humor ) in an attempt to stay focused on the main topic. But now that you have brought it up ( - humor), there are several references to the future of the Guardianship in the pilgrim's notes of many others too. One very similar example can be found in the notes of Valera Allen, who was on pilgrimage with her husband John Allen in December of 1954. She describes that “The Guardian was asked if the meaning of the verse in the Bible "the day that would not be followed by night" meant that succeeding Manifestations would not be persecuted but immediately accepted by the people. He answered, ‘No, there will always be evil in the world and doubtless the succeeding Manifestations would be persecuted though in a lesser degree.’ The meaning of the verse was that the Guardians would be sources of guidance and protection for the Faith until the coming of the subsequent Manifestation which might not be for 6000 years although He might come any time after 1000 years — depending on need.”

But again, I do not want to derail this thread. Perhaps it is a worthy topic for another thread another time. Thanks Tony.

-LR
Thank you Larry - This does not derail the Thread, it is about the Future and what it will hold.

Of course we have absolutely no idea I have found it an amazing time to live in, so much happening and so much change each and every day.

I am also sure all the Hands of the cause were well aware of all this information when they gathered after the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

What we do know is that we have not got it right, we were and still are too materialistic, we have missed many opportunities. This must tie into the unusual events that surrounded the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

I am sure we will on our passing be made aware of all these issues.

It is not easy to find a soul that wishes to discuss Faith in Australia, but I guess that is also reflecting many of the materialistic Nations. The Solomon Islands was amazing, a conversation can happen with almost anybody. One can see the wisdom in the Guardians advice to disperse to these regions. Unfortunately my path did not stay there, but my short time there did help a good friend and his wife to move there and it has been absolutely amazing for them ever since.

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-27-2018, 12:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Thank you Larry - This does not derail the Thread, it is about the Future and what it will hold.

Of course we have absolutely no idea I have found it an amazing time to live in, so much happening and so much change each and every day.

I am also sure all the Hands of the cause were well aware of all this information when they gathered after the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

What we do know is that we have not got it right, we were and still are too materialistic, we have missed many opportunities. This must tie into the unusual events that surrounded the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

I am sure we will on our passing be made aware of all these issues.

It is not easy to find a soul that wishes to discuss Faith in Australia, but I guess that is also reflecting many of the materialistic Nations. The Solomon Islands was amazing, a conversation can happen with almost anybody. One can see the wisdom in the Guardians advice to disperse to these regions. Unfortunately my path did not stay there, but my short time there did help a good friend and his wife to move there and it has been absolutely amazing for them ever since.

Regards Tony
I recall that in 1981, I was privileged to have been in the presence of Hand of the Cause of God Shu‘á‘u’lláh ‘Alá’í in Eugene, Oregon (USA). I listened to a talk he gave in Farsi, which his son translated. I did not take notes, but I clearly recall that his talk reflected the content of the quotes offered in the posts above from Shoghi Effendi and from the pilgrims’ notes shared. Having only become a Baha’i at the end of May 1978, the substance and force with which he presented that talk certainly made a deep impression on me about the calamitous years yet to come. I believe Hand of the Cause ‘Alá’í was about 93 years old at that time as he passed on in 1984 on the anniversary of his birth at the age of 96.

-LR
 
Old 04-28-2018, 09:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Thank you Larry - This does not derail the Thread, it is about the Future and what it will hold.

Of course we have absolutely no idea I have found it an amazing time to live in, so much happening and so much change each and every day.

I am also sure all the Hands of the cause were well aware of all this information when they gathered after the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

What we do know is that we have not got it right, we were and still are too materialistic, we have missed many opportunities. This must tie into the unusual events that surrounded the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

I am sure we will on our passing be made aware of all these issues.

It is not easy to find a soul that wishes to discuss Faith in Australia, but I guess that is also reflecting many of the materialistic Nations. The Solomon Islands was amazing, a conversation can happen with almost anybody. One can see the wisdom in the Guardians advice to disperse to these regions. Unfortunately my path did not stay there, but my short time there did help a good friend and his wife to move there and it has been absolutely amazing for them ever since.

Regards Tony
Tony what unusual events are you talking about surrounding his passing, and how does that tie into humans being to materialistic. Sounds very interesting.
 
Old 05-01-2018, 05:32 AM   #16
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Hello Yousefy2:

In response to Tony’s post #15, you asked:

Quote:
Tony what unusual events are you talking about surrounding his passing, and how does that tie into humans being to materialistic. Sounds very interesting.
Thank you for asking those two questions. I have been waiting for Tony’s response to your query. Tony’s comments also sparked the question in my mind: “What does the future hold” (title of this thread initiated by Tony) as related to “the unusual events that surrounded the passing of Shoghi Effendi”?

I do have some thoughts related to Tony's comments, and to our questions, but will first give Tony opportunity to comment as I do not want my words to be perceived as “speaking” on his behalf.

-LR
 
Old 05-01-2018, 11:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
Tony what unusual events are you talking about surrounding his passing, and how does that tie into humans being to materialistic. Sounds very interesting.
Allah'u'abha Yousefy2, Hope you are having a great Ridvan.

The events surrounding the passing of the Guardian are well covered in the Rhui course Book 8 and it is a great course to undertake.

The unusual circumstances were that Shoghi Effendi did not leave a Will and Testament as a guide for the Baha'is as to how the future should be handled upon His Passing.

The main issue being that there was no one the Guardian could point as a successor to continue the line of the Guardian. He had no children and all the people that could be appointed under the requirements of the Covenant, had broken the Covenant and thus could not be appointed.

From here, it is a lot of information as to what actions were taken by the Hands of the Cause, who had gathered in the Holy Land to determine how this situation should be addressed.

One thought was that Shoghi Effendi also did not own anything and given that He could appoint no one It was concluded this was the reason that Shoghi Effendi was yet to write a will.

Personally I see the Hands of the Cause did all they could do to direct the Faith Forward as it was intended.

Larry has put a lot of study into this and I note awaits this reply. Sorry I have to be brief. I am very busy at this moment and until the end of the week have little time for the net.

The Materialism aspect is what Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi spent their entire lives trying to warn us about, that the influence went deeper than most of us would consider. I have found each day I live, that it has hold of us in ways we do not like to consider. If we had overcome this issue, the world would have thriving communities in vast numbers.

God bless and I hope you are happy Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 05-01-2018 at 11:53 AM.
 
Old 05-02-2018, 10:29 AM   #18
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WOW.... so interesting to follow. Thank you Tony. I did not know about these prophecies until very now, but living where I live, I have recently FELT a very near war or something. With America on one side and Russia on the other side (and The Guardian says both are wrong), then also Israel and South Korea and Arabia, but most of all just US and Russia...well, maybe the upcoming restlessness is much easier felt especially in Middle Eastern countries. To tell you the truth, I have recently felt that I am living at a stage in which everynight I go to bed, instead of saying good night, it is wiser to say goodbye because one has absolutely no idea of what the future holds; I very much feel an upcoming worldly war. Some days ago I talked about it with a Bahai friend of mine in their house; they were very optimistic in thinking that the world can become a better place without any big wars, but I ....
Yet the thing is, I have also thought that all the created things go around a circle. I mean, we have for example, the four seasons, one after the other. Then there is the stages the earth has see; once covered with ice, then extinction, then flood, then hot weather, again all happen one after another as if within a circle. even at a personal level, we are sometimes happy and sometimes sad. So the world, too, cannot always remain in peace. there will be wars, and times of peace. Because these things are all like a fire to purify the gold.
To think of a war like that is not pleasant if we see it just as a war. but when I look at it as a means of advancement, as a means of purification, I feel happy, even if it happens at time when I am still on earth.

anyway, thank you so much for sharing the wonderful lines.
Allaho Abha dear friend
 
Old 05-02-2018, 11:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
The Materialism aspect is what Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi spent their entire lives trying to warn us about, that the influence went deeper than most of us would consider. I have found each day I live, that it has hold of us in ways we do not like to consider. If we had overcome this issue, the world would have thriving communities in vast numbers.
I think I understand far too well what you mean. Therefore, I shy away from touching that subject.

gnat
 
Old 05-02-2018, 06:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
I think I understand far too well what you mean. Therefore, I shy away from touching that subject.

gnat
Dear Gnat I like to shy away from it as well. The good thing is though, that Baha'u'llah always puts the choices in front of us. In the end it is each of us that face the choices we have made.

If in December the world still allows Pilgrimage. I will say another prayer for this Forum and its Members. In December 2014 when I last had the bounty to do this, a remarkable event occured which helped the forum at that time.

Stay well Gnat and I hope your precious little ones are Happy and safe. I hope the seeds you plant at work, make a change.

If you get a chance, download watch and share this movie, it is great, brings tears to the eyes.

A Widening Embrace


Regards Tony
 
Old 05-02-2018, 10:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post

If in December the world still allows Pilgrimage.

Do people have to ask for a pilgrimage before they actually go? and why should they not let?
 
Old 05-03-2018, 02:40 AM   #22
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
Do people have to ask for a pilgrimage before they actually go? and why should they not let?
Yes you have to apply for the 9 day pilgrimage as you come as a guest of the Universal House of Justice. You are put into groups and taken around the Holy Places with a group guide.

There are many hundreds in each intake now, so it takes a lot of planning.

You have to have a full 3 years since your last 9 Day pilgrimage before you can apply for another now. Thus you will not be allowed to apply until the entire 3 years have passed. I am not sure what the grounds of any other refusal could be?

There are other pilgrimages that can be done when you only have to notify that you will be in the holy land.

Others may be able to help with your question in more detail.

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-03-2018, 11:15 AM   #23
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
WOW.... so interesting to follow. Thank you Tony. I did not know about these prophecies until very now, but living where I live, I have recently FELT a very near war or something. With America on one side and Russia on the other side (and The Guardian says both are wrong), then also Israel and South Korea and Arabia, but most of all just US and Russia...well, maybe the upcoming restlessness is much easier felt especially in Middle Eastern countries. To tell you the truth, I have recently felt that I am living at a stage in which everynight I go to bed, instead of saying good night, it is wiser to say goodbye because one has absolutely no idea of what the future holds; I very much feel an upcoming worldly war. Some days ago I talked about it with a Bahai friend of mine in their house; they were very optimistic in thinking that the world can become a better place without any big wars, but I ....
Yet the thing is, I have also thought that all the created things go around a circle. I mean, we have for example, the four seasons, one after the other. Then there is the stages the earth has see; once covered with ice, then extinction, then flood, then hot weather, again all happen one after another as if within a circle. even at a personal level, we are sometimes happy and sometimes sad. So the world, too, cannot always remain in peace. there will be wars, and times of peace. Because these things are all like a fire to purify the gold.
To think of a war like that is not pleasant if we see it just as a war. but when I look at it as a means of advancement, as a means of purification, I feel happy, even if it happens at time when I am still on earth.

anyway, thank you so much for sharing the wonderful lines.
Allaho Abha dear friend
Allah'u'abha Maryamr, thank you for your thoughts. To find the positives in all things is a great way to remain happy in our life journey. I see that this is the advice Abdul'baha gave to us many times over.

This is a link to the Pilgrim notes, there is also links to the advice as to how they should be seen. https://bahai-library.com/Pilgrims

https://bahai-library.com/compilation_pilgrims_notes

With this subject the Guardian made it officially clear that we can not know what the future holds and as such should put all our effort into each day we live, to Live the Baha'i Life and foster the Unity that is the goal of the New World Order.

I would agree with you as would many others that I talk with each day, that they all see the world is at a time of great change and great challenges. This quote to me has foretold of one of the biggest challenges we face (I have highlighted text);

"O ye the elected representatives of the people in every land! Take ye counsel together, and let your concern be only for that which profiteth mankind, and bettereth the condition thereof, if ye be of them that scan heedfully. Regard the world as the human body which, though at its creation whole and perfect, hath been afflicted, through various causes, with grave disorders and maladies. Not for one day did it gain ease, nay its sickness waxed more severe, as it fell under the treatment of ignorant physicians, who gave full rein to their personal desires, and have erred grievously. And if, at one time, through the care of an able physician, a member of that body was healed, the rest remained afflicted as before. Thus informeth you the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
We behold it, in this day, at the mercy of rulers so drunk with pride that they cannot discern clearly their own best advantage, much less recognize a Revelation so bewildering and challenging as this. And whenever any one of them hath striven to improve its condition, his motive hath been his own gain, whether confessedly so or not; and the unworthiness of this motive hath limited his power to heal or cure.
That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error. Bahá'à Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 254-255

As there is little change that the current rulers will embrace the power of the skilled, and all-powerful and inspired Physician, it would only be logical that the body of mankind will have issues to face.

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-03-2018, 11:19 AM   #24
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thank you Tony for the very useful information about pilgrimage; I knew none of that. and thank you for the insightful answer to my first comment.
 
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