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Old 07-07-2018, 02:07 AM   #1
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Nature vs Nurture .. Hell is Injust?

I am seeing teens who have gone through the Bahá'í childrens classes and JY spiritual empowerment program and brought up in kind households. These teens are extremely good, nice humans. Now my question is somebody like Hitler or Nasir Din Shah if they had the same upbringing would they have committed the atrocities they did? I think not, so why should they be placed in 'Hell' even if that is remoteness from God? And will all souls progress in the next life into heaven eventually?
 
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Old 07-07-2018, 03:54 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
...somebody like Hitler or Nasir Din Shah if they had the same upbringing would they have committed the atrocities they did?...
When Adolf Hitler was a youth he not only was taught from the Sacred Texts, he in fact studied for the priesthood. Likewise, Nasir Din Shah was taught the Koran. Humans have free will; we choose how we affect others and this leads to consequences our choices.
 
Old 07-07-2018, 05:37 AM   #3
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I personally don't think you have considered the question with depth. I to was taught the Quran as a youth, but it was just that the Quran. The children's and JY program teaches you spiritual values and gives you a chance to put them into practice almost immediately. I was taught the Quran yet was a rebel right up until I found out about the Bahá'í faith
 
Old 07-07-2018, 06:00 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
And will all souls progress in the next life into heaven eventually?
Yes, I think that this is the case. Souls exist for an infinite amount of time, and 'Abdu'l-Baha tells us that souls continue to progress after death.

With literally all of time at their disposal, I see no reason to think that all will reach that destination eventually. I'd think it would be impossible, given infinite time, for a person to not somehow reach that point eventually.

There's a Christian mystic lecturer who I've been listening to recently for his talks on alchemy, named Manly Hall (he had an amazing name), who has the same belief that eventually every soul will make it to God. He called it something like "The Eventual Victory of Every Soul".
 
Old 07-07-2018, 06:27 AM   #5
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The new Teachings from our Creator given through Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí refute a place called Hell, we all move on to the same place after mortal death. All people, everyone will go to the same place. We place our self at a distance from love, it's our choice even after death. But we have apple opportunity to learn love even after mortal death.

The New Teachings say we all have all the Attributes of our Creator. Due to what our parents/community teach and the personal situation so four lives, as well as level of school/education we have, and mental illness issues.

To be blunt, Hitler and several other major figures of infamy were fatherless sons, one can imagine the harness of peers taunting and shirking by the community on whole causing a Hitler to grow without any emotional connections to humanity. Since humanity treated him harshly.

Hitler, and Stalin, and Alexander among others go to the same 'place' everyone else goes after mortal death.


IMHO

Last edited by Mike4591; 07-07-2018 at 08:07 AM.
 
Old 07-07-2018, 06:30 AM   #6
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I personally don't think you have considered the question with depth... ...I found out about the Bahá'í faith
LOL!! OK you're better than me but that's not we're talking about here, namely:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
... why should they be placed in 'Hell' even if that is remoteness from God? And will all souls progress in the next life into heaven eventually?
David Young had a good take in his "Resurrection of All Mankind":
The Bahá’í Writings refer to Hell at least 51 times and in the same usage style as can be found in the Bible: Soon shall the blasts of His chastisement beat upon you, and the dust of hell enshroud you. Those men who having amassed the vanities and ornaments of the earth, have turned disdainfully from God - these have lost both this world and the world to come. (Gl, p 209) ...They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers! (Gl, pp 284-285)

...Biblical verses demonstrate that Hell cannot literally be an eternal place of physical torment inside the earth in which human bodies suffer unending pain. However it is a term used repeatedly in both the Bible and Bahá’í Scriptures to refer symbolically to a soul’s spiritual condition in this world and the next...
Pse share your thinking on this.
 
Old 07-07-2018, 06:41 AM   #7
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Thanks Walrus and Mike, your posts clear a few things up for me. I guess God loves everyone, even Hitler or Nasir Din Shah. I see a Bahá'í family With 6 childre, and all are very devoted bahais, and it made me think that 95% of humans would be good humans if they had the correct upbringing .. ? So I guess people have a disadvantage from birth but all will eventually get to heaven? I also was concerned that if God does not love people and throws them in Hell how does that correlate with the idea that I must love all people when God does not? But that's been cleared up

Last edited by Yousefy2; 07-07-2018 at 07:00 AM.
 
Old 07-07-2018, 08:09 AM   #8
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Studies of twins have alluded to the theory that biology nurture is about 80% of what shapes our personality.

https://www.medicaldaily.com/nature-...e-human-334686
 
Old 07-07-2018, 01:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
I am seeing teens who have gone through the Bahá'í childrens classes and JY spiritual empowerment program and brought up in kind households. These teens are extremely good, nice humans. Now my question is somebody like Hitler or Nasir Din Shah if they had the same upbringing would they have committed the atrocities they did? I think not, so why should they be placed in 'Hell' even if that is remoteness from God? And will all souls progress in the next life into heaven eventually?
What about the Covenant Breakers. A lot of them had the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi as their teachers and guides as what was the right path? I think we can say that Baha'u'llah's half brother who rebeled against Baha'u'llah had the same Nature and Nurture as Baha'u'llah did.

This world has light and it has darkness. Our hearts can contain either. I see life becomes a sum of all our choices. When darkness is in our lives and thoughts, do we turn towards the light or do we go with the darkness?

This is bigger than we consider, it is all our choices, all our thoughts.

I agree with Pete, it is our free will that is the difference between us and the animal. To me this Bible passage tells us of the extent of free will.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Our path is a choice, no matter what faces us, to choose a life of Light, or let darkness prevail. If forces outside our control do not allow a choice, then we are safe in the knowledge that God doeth as He Willeth and to none is given the right to question.

It is a good question you have asked, the hell is our own thoughts and actions.

Regards Tony
 
Old 07-07-2018, 01:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete in Panama View Post
When Adolf Hitler was a youth he not only was taught from the Sacred Texts, he in fact studied for the priesthood. Likewise, Nasir Din Shah was taught the Koran. Humans have free will; we choose how we affect others and this leads to consequences our choices.
I would agree with this Pete. In saying that, I know you know that there is also a lot more that can be said upon this subject.

Regards Tony
 
Old 07-07-2018, 04:50 PM   #11
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...Our path is a choice, no matter what faces us, to choose a life of Light, or let darkness prevail. If forces outside our control do not allow a choice, then we are safe in the knowledge that God doeth as He Willeth and to none is given the right to question...
That really says it; there's so much to ponder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
...hell is our own thoughts and actions.
--and from what I recall of the Sacred Texts is that hell is a choice that does not have to be permanent.
 
Old 07-07-2018, 06:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
I am seeing teens who have gone through the Bahá'í childrens classes and JY spiritual empowerment program and brought up in kind households. These teens are extremely good, nice humans. Now my question is somebody like Hitler or Nasir Din Shah if they had the same upbringing would they have committed the atrocities they did? I think not, so why should they be placed in 'Hell' even if that is remoteness from God? And will all souls progress in the next life into heaven eventually?
There would be more difficult tests for those with better spiritual education... Overall it would be fair.
 
Old 07-13-2018, 09:05 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
What about the Covenant Breakers. A lot of them had the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi as their teachers and guides as what was the right path? I think we can say that Baha'u'llah's half brother who rebeled against Baha'u'llah had the same Nature and Nurture as Baha'u'llah did.

This world has light and it has darkness. Our hearts can contain either. I see life becomes a sum of all our choices. When darkness is in our lives and thoughts, do we turn towards the light or do we go with the darkness?

This is bigger than we consider, it is all our choices, all our thoughts.

I agree with Pete, it is our free will that is the difference between us and the animal. To me this Bible passage tells us of the extent of free will.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Our path is a choice, no matter what faces us, to choose a life of Light, or let darkness prevail. If forces outside our control do not allow a choice, then we are safe in the knowledge that God doeth as He Willeth and to none is given the right to question.

It is a good question you have asked, the hell is our own thoughts and actions.

Regards Tony
Tony I only just saw this post, do you think all will attain heaven eventually? There is a quote that says something like all souls progress until they attain the presence of God
 
Old 07-13-2018, 01:08 PM   #14
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Tony I only just saw this post, do you think all will attain heaven eventually? There is a quote that says something like all souls progress until they attain the presence of God
Personally Yousefy2 I think the answer to that question is found in God doeth as He Willeth. I see I do not have the capacity to answer, only offer thoughts from my journey to date. How is it that we are gifted nearness to God?

I ask myself, who am I to judge any soul and as to why they are yet to know of God in this life. I never looked for God but the Faith was gifted for me to consider! Why? I loved and accepted the Message and it shaped my life, but the world turned me away for a while and I was graciously turned back.

This prayer full of meaning;

"My God, my Adored One, my King, my Desire! What tongue can voice my thanks to Thee? I was heedless, Thou didst awaken me. I had turned back from Thee, Thou didst graciously aid me to turn towards Thee. I was as one dead, Thou didst quicken me with the water of life. I was withered, Thou didst revive me with the heavenly stream of Thine utterance which hath flowed forth from the Pen of the All-Merciful.

O Divine Providence! All existence is begotten by Thy bounty; deprive it not of the waters of Thy generosity, neither do Thou withhold it from the ocean of Thy mercy. I beseech Thee to aid and assist me at all times and under all conditions, and seek from the heaven of Thy grace Thine ancient favor. Thou art, in truth, the Lord of bounty, and the Sovereign of the kingdom of eternity." Bahá’u’lláh

My prayer is that every soul, past present and future is given this gift of Faith and we have no reason to think God will not allow that to be so.

This quote also a meditation on your question;

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

Regards Tony
 
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