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Old 07-12-2018, 05:29 PM   #1
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How do Bahais justify controversial Lifestyles of Manifestations of God

How do Bahais justify or rationalize controversial Lifestyles of Manifestations of God?

such as:

Baha'u'llah's polygamy and the weird 2nd and 3rd wives and his traitorous children sired from his 2nd and 3rd wives ?

Abraham traumatizing the living $#*! out of one his sons by almost sacraficing him with a Knife because God told him to and then said "just kidding it was test of faith."?


Muhammad allegedly being a pedophile:


Jesus's mother being a Virgin:

And maybe some other stories?

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 07-12-2018 at 05:37 PM.
 
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:07 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
How do Bahais justify or rationalize controversial Lifestyles of Manifestations of God?

such as:

Baha'u'llah's polygamy and the weird 2nd and 3rd wives and his traitorous children sired from his 2nd and 3rd wives ?
Marriage up to four wives was allowed at the time.

Polygamy is a necessary thing for earlier human societies.

Before the advancement of technology, there were higher workplace fatalities and for the sake of human reproduction, we needed to restrict dangerous work to men only.

Because if a man dies our society loses one person. If a woman dies we lose her plus any child she may have had in the future.

So this gender role leads to an imbalance of men and women, and polygamy is needed for proper human reproduction to deal with the imbalance.

I don't think polygamy in older times should be considered "controversial". It was necessary for a society that lacks the privileges of our resources and technology.

In today's age, technology has advanced and workplace fatalities are increasingly rare. So we don't need to restrict women from those dangerous workplaces, and we don't have a significant gender imbalance.

Thus we no longer need polygamy and Baha'u'llah brought a law to remove it.

But everyone who was already married polygamously, not just Baha'u'llah, was "grandfathered in" under the old laws, because it wouldn't really be right to suddenly annul existing, loving marriages because of the changing needs of society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Abraham traumatizing the living $#*! out of one his sons by almost sacraficing him with a Knife because God told him to and then said "just kidding it was test of faith."?
Haha, I've never really been sure about that subject, but from Isaac's perspective he wouldn't have been traumatized.

His father tells him they're going up a mountain to make a sacrifice. He asks where the sacrificial sheep is, his dad says "God will provide it" and nothing else. He says "Okay", and they go up the mountain. At the top of the mountain, lo and behold, there's a goat there to sacrifice.

Isaac didn't know Abraham's plan and probably wasn't privy to the conversation between God and Abraham once they arrived at the destination. From his perspective, all he was told is "God will provide" and indeed the sacrifice was provided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Muhammad allegedly being a pedophile:
So basically this is the problem with Hadith.

Different Hadiths report completely different ages for Aisha when she married Muhammad, and some Hadiths state she was still even a virgin when Muhammad died.

If we look at the Hadith that reports the lowest number of Aisha's age, six years old, it is indeed shocking, but there's no real reason to think that Hadith is more valid than the Hadiths that report she was much, much older, or the Hadiths that say not only was she older, but that the marriage was unconsomated.

Truthfully, and this is the big problem with Hadith, its all speculation and hearsay, written over a hundred years after the life of Muhammad, speculating about his personal life. We have no clue what Aisha's true age was, and the fact that there are so many contradictory Hadiths on this subject is proof that almost all of them are wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Jesus's mother being a Virgin:

And maybe some other stories?
I have no time to watch this linked video right now but...

How on earth would anyone be able to prove the intimate details of the love life of a deceased woman from over two thousand years ago??
 
Old 07-13-2018, 01:52 PM   #3
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so its just a leap of faith that those "Manifestations of God" had good Divine reasons from the perspecgtive of a primative $h*tH#L3 society?

I like this book. It should be a biblical scholarly guide to debunk if you Bahais expect your latest greatest Manifestation of God from the Dynasty of Abraham to be taken seriously:



 
Old 07-13-2018, 03:40 PM   #4
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This is sick

Its funny how some Bahais say its all right for you to eat Pork now now that you know how science has evolved to where you just need to cook it better to avoid trichnosis, yet no one in the Bahai Leadership has ever condemned or forbid this disgusting practice?

Why should you? With the Bahai World Center in Israel where they never stop normalizing that kind of practice.
 
Old 07-14-2018, 12:20 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
How do Bahais justify or rationalize controversial Lifestyles of Manifestations of God?
...
Tell me, why is it necessary to justify? Bluntly, I refuse.

Faith is not about justification. Never has been, and those who ask other to justify something, especially when it has to do with religion, are no more than preparing the base for an argument. And Baha'is are forbidden to argue, even with Satan - ask 'Abdu'l-Baha:

Remember how Adam and the others once dwelt together in Eden. No sooner, however, did a quarrel break out between Adam and Satan than they were, one and all, banished from the Garden, and this was meant as a warning to the human race, a means of telling humankind that dissension—even with the Devil—is the way to bitter loss. This is why, in our illumined age, God teacheth that conflicts and disputes are not allowable, not even with Satan himself.
('Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, page 288 https://www.miscellanie.com/allthete...ions/s288.html)

Faith, religion, in its essence is about the individual improving their spiritual self, overcoming their material self. Faith, religion, is in recognising spiritual Truth.

There is a car placed between us. To me, the bonnet is on my left. To you, the bonnet is to the right. So, are we going to argue about the different perspectives, or are we going to accept the truth.

Truth is like that - mostly people argue about, from their own perspectives only, and end up not seeing, looking at the Truth. But the Truth... is the Truth, and does not care whether it is believed or not. Utterly regardless, it is still the Truth, and no amount of belief or disbelief will ever change that.

I would prefer, rather than discussing and disagreeing on our perspectives, walk around from my side of the car to yours, that I may see and understand your perspective, for without fail, I will learn.

Will you walk around to my side of the car?

With my most warm and loving greetings

Last edited by Romane; 07-14-2018 at 12:23 AM.
 
Old 07-14-2018, 12:49 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Its funny how some Bahais say its all right for you to eat Pork now now that you know how science has evolved to where you just need to cook it better to avoid trichnosis, yet no one in the Bahai Leadership has ever condemned or forbid this disgusting practice?

Why should you? With the Bahai World Center in Israel where they never stop normalizing that kind of practice.
Personally I do not look at Sick

This is what Baha'u'llah has said about meat;

"....Say: O concourse of priests and monks! Eat ye of that which God hath made lawful unto you and do not shun meat. God hath, as a token of His grace, granted you leave to partake thereof save during a brief period. He, verily, is the Mighty, the Beneficent. Forsake all that ye possess and hold fast unto that which God hath purposed....." Baha'u'llah : The Summons of the Lord of Hosts

Abdul'baha has given this food of thought;

"...Consequently, the great divine philosophers have had the following epigram: All things are involved in all things. For every single phenomenon has enjoyed the postulates of God, and in every form of these infinite electrons it has had its characteristics of perfection.
Thus this flower once upon a time was of the soil. The animal eats the flower or its fruit, and it thereby ascends to the animal kingdom. Man eats the meat of the animal, and there you have its ascent into the human kingdom, because all phenomena are divided into that which eats and that which is eaten. Therefore, every primordial atom of these atoms, singly and indivisible, has had its coursings throughout all the sentient creation, going constantly into the aggregation of the various elements. Hence do you have the conservation of energy and the infinity of phenomena, the indestructibility of phenomena, changeless and immutable, because life cannot suffer annihilation but only change....." Abdu'l-Baha : Foundations of World Unity

I choose not to eat red meat, as I see in the future that kindness to animals may see the day we no longer wish to take the life of another creature.

Abdul'baha answered the following question;

"Question: What will be the food of the united people?

Answer: As humanity progresses, meat will be used less and less, for the teeth of man are not carnivorous. For example, the lion is endowed with carnivorous teeth, which are intended for meat, and if meat be not found, the lion starves. The lion cannot graze; its teeth are of different shape. The digestive system of the lion is such that it cannot receive nourishment save through meat. The eagle has a crooked beak, the lower part shorter than the upper. It cannot pick up grain; it cannot graze; therefore, it is compelled to partake of meat. The domestic animals have herbivorous teeth formed to cut grass, which is their fodder. The human teeth, the molars, are formed to grind grain. The front teeth, the incisors, are for fruits, etc. It is, therefore, quite apparent according to the implements for eating that man's food is intended to be grain and not meat. When mankind is more fully developed, the eating of meat will gradually cease." Abdu'l-Baha : The Promulgation of Universal Peace Part 1

Regards Tony
 
Old 07-14-2018, 04:21 PM   #7
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Polygamy

No matter how primitive or distant or ancient the "dispensation era" of which or what Manifestation of God or what, Polygamy is a brutal and barbaric system of reproductive competition of men against other men for sexual privileges with women. If there's a multiple husband society it seems the same vice versa. Its a form of disgusting elitism. Polygamy induces EXTREME RISKS of sibling jealousy and resentment. The Most notorious sibling rift was Abdu'l-Baha's Brother "The Center of Sedition" Mirza Muhammad Ali.

I don't know what its like to be born into a polygamist family, but I know it was a very bitter rivalry and resentment between a family of an Aunt and Uncle with one of my parents, and an estrangement from my extended family.

I can only imagine it would be worse if I had a brother or a sister from another mother in the same household.

I cannot understand why Bahais' founding Manifestation of God wouldn't have the power to find husbands for his 2nd and 3rd Wives instead of ever marrying them in the first place.

[QUOTE=Walrus;80815]Marriage up to four wives was allowed at the time.

[Polygamy is a necessary thing for earlier human societies.]


No it isn't. Its a recipe for jealousy, resentment, and more wars and misery. Here's the problem if you think its necessary. Look at the history of the Mormon Polygamy.

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 07-14-2018 at 04:42 PM.
 
Old 07-14-2018, 04:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
No matter how primitive or distant or ancient the "dispensation era" of which or what Manifestation of God or what, Polygamy is a brutal and barbaric system of reproductive competition of men against other men for sexual privileges with women. If there's a multiple husband society it seems the same vice versa. Its a form of disgusting elitism. Polygamy induces EXTREME RISKS of sibling jealousy and resentment. The Most notorious sibling rift was Abdu'l-Baha's Brother "The
Center of Sedition" Mirza Muhammad Ali.

I don't know what its like to be born into a polygamist family, but I know it was a very bitter rivalry and resentment between a family of an Aunt and Uncle with one of my parents, and an estrangement from my extended family.

I can only imagine it would be worse if I had a brother or a sister from another mother in the same household.

I cannot understand why Bahais' founding Manifestation of God wouldn't have the power to find husbands for his 2nd and 3rd Wives instead of ever marrying them in the first place
Man indeed can become a jealous creature when self is his motivation in this life.

God gives our laws, it is for us to abide by them, free of self and for the good of all.

Thus the way we choose to look at life, is our choice and we will find what is in our heart. We are asked to make our heart a mirror for the unconstrained. There is no fault to find but in our own unpolished mirror.

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 07-14-2018 at 04:52 PM.
 
Old 07-15-2018, 03:14 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
This is sick

Its funny how some Bahais say its all right for you to eat Pork now now that you know how science has evolved to where you just need to cook it better to avoid trichnosis, yet no one in the Bahai Leadership has ever condemned or forbid this disgusting practice?

Why should you? With the Bahai World Center in Israel where they never stop normalizing that kind of practice.

All you have to judge a religion is such trivial matters as what kind of meat they eat? so when God let Christians and Jews eat pork, He did not know that pork could be unhealthy? or did He just thought "well, let these people eat dirt. later on I will correct it!" There are different ideas really about pork, and all of them are from reliable sources. You can show me a million studies on how pork is dirty and can never get cleaned. I can , in reverse, show you a hundred researches that say it is not dangerous !
 
Old 07-15-2018, 03:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
if you Bahais expect your latest greatest Manifestation of God from the Dynasty of Abraham to be taken seriously
So KIND! but I do not think we strive to be taken seriously! it will happen on its own time. back in time, people could not take it seriously when they were told that the earth is not the center of the universe
 
Old 07-16-2018, 06:06 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
This is sick

Its funny how some Bahais say its all right for you to eat Pork now now that you know how science has evolved to where you just need to cook it better to avoid trichnosis, yet no one in the Bahai Leadership has ever condemned or forbid this disgusting practice?

Why should you? With the Bahai World Center in Israel where they never stop normalizing that kind of practice.
I'm not sure you made your post very clear. I seem to be the only one who figured out that this post was talking about circumcision (or genital mutilation, as it should properly be called).

That being said, there is no endorsement of the practice in the Baha'i Faith, and there are Baha'is, like myself, who are openly intactivist.
 
Old 07-16-2018, 06:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
No matter how primitive or distant or ancient the "dispensation era" of which or what Manifestation of God or what, Polygamy is a brutal and barbaric system of reproductive competition of men against other men for sexual privileges with women. If there's a multiple husband society it seems the same vice versa. Its a form of disgusting elitism. Polygamy induces EXTREME RISKS of sibling jealousy and resentment. The Most notorious sibling rift was Abdu'l-Baha's Brother "The Center of Sedition" Mirza Muhammad Ali.
Well RoZS... you are wrong.

Polygamy ain't ideal, but it's the best system there is when you live in a society where there are more women than men.

In the past, there was provably a high rate of workplace death for men, which lead to an imbalance of men and women. Genetic testing has shown that twice as many women over the course of human history survived to a reproductive age as did men.

So I ask you, in one of any number of past societies, where there were more living women than men, what is your solution??

Do you have monogamy, and let the extra women who can't find a husband go without one forever?? That seems horribly unjust.

Polygamy seems the best way to fix that situation to me. Do you have a better solution??

Polygamy only becomes, as you put it, "a brutal and barbaric system of reproductive competition" when the number of men and women in a society are equal. Which is why modern polygamous societies are having all the problems that they are having.

But the societies of the past did not have an equal number of men and women. Men died to war and hard labor. Women were excluded from military service and most hard labor. There were more women then men. In a society with unequal numbers among the genders, monogamy causes, to borrow your wording, "a brutal and barbaric system of reproductive competition of women against other women for sexual privileges with men".

So what, if anything, is your competing solution to a society with a gender imbalance??
 
Old 07-16-2018, 12:19 PM   #13
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Hi Walrus,
Do you have any good articles, which show that there where more women than men surviving to reproductive age in the past ? All I have found so far are papers which hypothesize that the cause of DNA imbalance was polygamy ..


Thanks,
T
 
Old 07-16-2018, 12:56 PM   #14
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IMHO: Procreation will probably be the biggest problem of mankind. IMHO the main issue of procreation, and ask any child, they desire to have their biological parents directly in their lives on a daily basis. The worst thing for people to do is procreate and not make a commitment to honor their children and to honor each other.

For all time and even now in most nations women have been treated as the pleasure for men and had no protections against their treatment by men. Women had no legal rights to property, nor to land, not any thing and were at the mercy of whatever dignity the local men would allow.

A huge problem are those who would see others suffer greatly, even death for not complying with a Religions so called laws regarding marriage. Some humans enjoy appearing better than others and happily hold themselves higher and are eager to set others in their place.

I ask, what Great Creator would want any of their creation to be judge and jury of others mistakes or weakness? I say our Creator understands weakness as we are made weak, duh.

I like the philosophy of, Sin is Sin and we ALL sin, none of us are qualified to judge. Not a single person on Earth!

Anyway, I found this article in Wikipedia, of interest. I had no idea Baha'ullah had so many children!
Bahá'u'lláh's family
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3...A1h%27s_family






[QUOTE=ReturnofZealSeeker;80861]No matter how primitive or distant or ancient the "dispensation era" of which or what Manifestation of God or what, Polygamy is a brutal and barbaric system of reproductive competition of men against other men for sexual privileges with women. If there's a multiple husband society it seems the same vice versa. Its a form of disgusting elitism. Polygamy induces EXTREME RISKS of sibling jealousy and resentment. The Most notorious sibling rift was Abdu'l-Baha's Brother "The Center of Sedition" Mirza Muhammad Ali.

I don't know what its like to be born into a polygamist family, but I know it was a very bitter rivalry and resentment between a family of an Aunt and Uncle with one of my parents, and an estrangement from my extended family.

I can only imagine it would be worse if I had a brother or a sister from another mother in the same household.

I cannot understand why Bahais' founding Manifestation of God wouldn't have the power to find husbands for his 2nd and 3rd Wives instead of ever marrying them in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Marriage up to four wives was allowed at the time.

[Polygamy is a necessary thing for earlier human societies.]


No it isn't. Its a recipe for jealousy, resentment, and more wars and misery. Here's the problem if you think its necessary. Look at the history of the Mormon Polygamy.
 
Old 07-16-2018, 01:34 PM   #15
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:36 PM   #16
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller View Post
Hi Walrus,
Do you have any good articles, which show that there where more women than men surviving to reproductive age in the past ? All I have found so far are papers which hypothesize that the cause of DNA imbalance was polygamy ..


Thanks,
T
I posted a longer version of this in the other polygamy thread, but this is based on a number of observations.

Statistics on the topic are very hard to find, as we don't have a lot of people in the ancient era recording the number of workplace fatalities. Nevertheless, I think there's enough data to see an observable pattern, and extrapolate from that what must have been a problem in that era of population imbalance.

So the first hard statistic I have is from the US Bureau of Labor. It records that in 2015 there were 4,836 workplace deaths in the United States. 4,492 of those, or 93%, were men. Even in nations where women are free to enter careers with larger risk and death rates, women rarely make that choice. This seems to be true of every culture, so it seems on a cultural level that all human cultures up until this point have set a standard of having the men of that culture do the majority of the risky work.

Even with the 2015 stats, the disparity of deaths causes an imbalance in America between the male and female populations, there are more women out there than men. However, because workplace death is such a rare thing (thanks entirely to modern technology), this imbalance is statistically insignificant, and the divide of genders is close to 50/50.

Now when we are talking about ancient societies, without the life-saving and life-preserving technology we have now-a-days, we can obviously see that ancient societies will by necessity have a greater imbalance between men and women, unless in such a society women equally contribute to the more dangerous careers (an examination of ancient laws and practices shows this is largely not the case).

Unfortunately lacking technology also means ancient societies did not keep a tally of their workplace fatalities. The closest I can find is Rome, which tracked military fatalities, and in specific a historian, Nathan Rosenstei, who reports about a 4% yearly mortality rate for the Roman military, in the 200's BCE. This is about workplace 6,000 deaths a year from that one career.

This is much more than the entire number of men who died in the US from any career at all, despite the Roman Republic of that time period having a much smaller overall population than the US.

Ergo, we can see a much higher percentage of people dying of workplace fatalities in the ancient era, and we can see the statistics showing the vast majority of workplace fatalities being inflicted on one gender in specific, thus I think it is safe to assume that the greater the amount of workplace deaths, the greater the disparity between the gender populations, and the less technological advancements, the greater the amount of workplace deaths.

Thus, despite the fact ancient people didn't track such data, I think it is safe to assume that there was a disparity between the number of men and women in that society that would need to be resolved in some way.
 
Old 07-18-2018, 01:04 PM   #18
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why is it necessary to justify? Bluntly, I refuse.

Quote:
The first is the independent investigation of truth; for blind imitation of the past will stunt the mind. But once every soul inquireth into truth, society will be freed from the darkness of continually repeating the past.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 248)

How do Bahais justify controversial Lifestyles of Manifestations of God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romane View Post
Tell me, why is it necessary to justify? Bluntly, I refuse.

Because maybe if you considered some rational or reasonable idea why your Manifestations of God had some controversial behavior for the historic past where they lived, you might actually be an educated person who has good reason to know your Faith as a strong independent critical thinker? instead of being "go-along-to-get along" moron who ignores certain areas that are bizarre? Like why Abraham mutilated the end of his penis and normalized it with his tribe of God's so called chosen people? A rational person who discovers that Baha'u'llah claims to be a genetic descendant of Abraham and loves Baha'u'llah might actually discover that maybe there biblical passages were distorted, lost in translation, and think that maybe that was their only method for curing some STD at the time? Who knows? I don't. Past dispensation perversions still run rampant and are normalized. Why even be Bahai if you put on blinders and live in stockholm syndrome?




Sorry with statements like that you missed 1 of your first commands of your Faith.

Quote:
2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 07-18-2018 at 01:10 PM.
 
Old 07-18-2018, 06:21 PM   #19
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RE: justification for polygamy

Unfortunately lacking technology also means ancient societies did not keep a tally of their workplace fatalities. The closest I can find is Rome, which tracked military fatalities, and in specific a historian, Nathan Rosenstei, who reports about a 4% yearly mortality rate for the Roman military, in the 200's BCE. This is about workplace 6,000 deaths a year from that one career.

Hi Walrus,
So my first thought in response to this was: Yes men die in war and some occupations , but women die in childbirth !

So I started trying to find some data on gender differences in life expectancy in biblical times ,to find see if a population difference was likely. There isnt a lot of information available , but I did find some data from the Roman Empire suggesting that females had a LE of 2-3 years longer than males.
Not sure if that would have created much of a gender bias, since in modern western LE differences is about 5 years, and we only see the population bias is the 65+ age group and not in younger groups, therefore it does not effect reproductive competition.

I do know that in African country where polygamy is legal and femicide is still practiced, it has led to a shortage of females in the reproductive age range.


Investigating,
T
 
Old 07-19-2018, 06:43 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller View Post
Unfortunately lacking technology also means ancient societies did not keep a tally of their workplace fatalities. The closest I can find is Rome, which tracked military fatalities, and in specific a historian, Nathan Rosenstei, who reports about a 4% yearly mortality rate for the Roman military, in the 200's BCE. This is about workplace 6,000 deaths a year from that one career.

Hi Walrus,
So my first thought in response to this was: Yes men die in war and some occupations , but women die in childbirth !
Sure, but the childbirth fatalities only happen when a woman survives to the point of a reproductive relationship. Occupational hazards can and do kill men before he survives to that point in time (which we can see evidence for in this study which from our DNA shows that over the course of history twice as many women survived to reproductive age than did men).

So basically I'd like to try to show why women dying in childbirth doesn't really solve the imbalance problem created by workplace deaths.

To use an example, we'll assume the number of men killed in workplace deaths and the number of women killed in childbirth are the same.

We start with Five Men and Five Women. Two Men in this scenario will die due to Workplace Deaths and Two Women will die of childbirth.

We'll also do the experiment twice, once with Polygamy, once without.

Before reaching reproductive age, one man dies in a work-related accident. There are now four men and five women.

When the subjects reach reproductive age, in the Polygamous Society, we have one husband with two wives.

However at the same time, in the Monogamous one, the fifth woman needs to wait for one of the other women to die from childbirth before she can get a partner.

Then in both societies, one woman dies in childbirth, and the extra woman can enter a relationship.

Then another man dies of an occupational hazard. In the Polygamous society, the widow can immediately remarry. In the Monogamous society, she is forced to provide for her child as a single mother until a different woman dies of childbirth.

Eventually the second woman dies of childbirth, and the widow can re-marry the extra man, and balance is restored.

Now in the above two scenarios, polygamy is the better option. Part of this reason is that the older a woman gets (especially in the ancient era), the greater and greater the risk for miscarriage or pregnancy complications, therefore the polygamous society still has a greater rate of reproduction, as there are no women in that society who need to wait for another woman to die before they can start reproducing.

Also, with the widow needing to wait for a man to "free up" before she can remarry, the children of that widow will be impacted negatively as studies are increasingly showing the importance of father figures in the lives of children. Ergo the time the children spend without a father directly harms them.

So when judged by children children, both in terms of number created and quality of their lives, the polygamous society has the advantage.

Now polygamy would not have an advantageous position if women who died in childbirth did so typically before men who died in occupational hazards. However, this is not the case. Women's chances of dying in childbirth increase with age, so the younger pregnancies are safer and more successful, whereas chance of dying at work decreases over time as work experience typically increases the safety by which you can do your job.
 
Old 07-19-2018, 06:47 AM   #21
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I do know that in African country where polygamy is legal and femicide is still practiced, it has led to a shortage of females in the reproductive age range.
I'd think the femicide is the problem.

Look at monogamous China, where the one-child policy (and Chinese culture of sons providing for their parents in old age) leading to many women aborting girls in favor of having sons so they aren't left destitute in old age.They're also having a problem with a shortage of females in the reproductive age range.

Monogamy or polygamy, it seems femicide causes a shortage of females.
 
Old 07-19-2018, 12:11 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
How do Bahais justify or rationalize controversial Lifestyles of Manifestations of God?

such as:

Baha'u'llah's polygamy and the weird 2nd and 3rd wives and his traitorous children sired from his 2nd and 3rd wives ?

Abraham traumatizing the living $#*! out of one his sons by almost sacraficing him with a Knife because God told him to and then said "just kidding it was test of faith."? *snip*


Muhammad allegedly being a pedophile:
*snip*

Jesus's mother being a Virgin: *snip*

And maybe some other stories?
Alright, I feel bored today, here:
Baha'u'llah's polygamy: Allowed under Qur'anic law. Not controversial. As for his sons? Qur'an speaks about how each human has free will. Humans can do potentially awful things using that same free will.

The Binding of Ishmael: Ishmael knew he would be fine and even encouraged his father to obey God's command despite Abraham's apprehension - Again, according to the Qur'an.

Muhammad allegedly being a pedophile: You answered it yourself, 'allegedly' - ahadith are not the direct word of God unlike the Qur'an, and all sources of him being with a very young girl come from this. Did you know some ahadith put her as old as 21?

Jesus' mother being a virgin: I mean, if we're being literal here, doesn't Adam one-up Jesus? He had no mother and no father if we take his story as literal. Also, Cu Chulainn and Plato did the virgin birth thing first, haha. But Unlike the other stories you brought forward, this one has nothing to it really. Nothing to really defend, nor anything to really attack. 'He was born a virgin! I don't like/believe that!' is about as deep as I think you can get.

TL;DR: Read the Qur'an to answer your questions
 
Old 07-19-2018, 01:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
The Binding of Ishmael: Ishmael knew he would be fine and even encouraged his father to obey God's command despite Abraham's apprehension - Again, according to the Qur'an.
at least as sadistic or sadomasochistic and insane either way

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 07-23-2018 at 04:08 PM.
 
Old 07-19-2018, 02:01 PM   #24
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
at least sadistic or sadomasochistic and insane either way
I thank God for their Insanity.

".........For the infidel, error—for the faithful, faith;
For Aṭṭár’s heart, an atom of Thy pain......."

"......Love’s a stranger to earth and heaven too;
In him are lunacies seventy-and-two.

He hath bound a myriad victims in his fetters, wounded a myriad wise men with his arrow. Know that every redness in the world is from his anger, and every paleness in men’s cheeks is from his poison. He yieldeth no remedy but death, he walketh not save in the valley of the shadow; yet sweeter than honey is his venom on the lover’s lips, and fairer his destruction in the seeker’s eyes than a hundred thousand lives.
Wherefore must the veils of the satanic self be burned away at the fire of love, that the spirit may be purified and cleansed and thus may know the station of the Lord of the Worlds.
Kindle the fire of love and burn away all things,
Then set thy foot into the land of the lovers....."

I hope you are well and happy. Regards Tony
 
Old 07-19-2018, 03:24 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
at least sadistic or sadomasochistic and insane either way
So it's not as bad as you initially thought?
 
Old 07-21-2018, 11:47 AM   #26
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Quote:
The Binding of Ishmael: Ishmael knew he would be fine and even encouraged his father to obey God's command despite Abraham's apprehension - Again, according to the Qur'an.
That story that God was just testing Abraham's Faith and He absolutely knew that was the real God telling him to do that is just At least as sadistic or masochistic either way. As though Ishmael absolutely knew His Dad was a good guy wavering a knife over him about to cut his throat? No that's disrespect for one's own life and a child's lilfe.

You can believe that was all normalized and nothing bad happened all you want. That's not a true loving god who would test a servant directly with such sadistic commands, or be so brainwashed under stockholm syndrome to think that one's own Father threatening to murder him was okay because he heard those Commands. That's b.s. And I'll go to my Grave convinced its b.s. and that

If Abraham was any kind of true Manifestation of God he probably had a period of time before he became a manifestation of God convinced he needed to cannibalize his son because that was so absolutely normalized in the $hitH*le society where he was exiled and a pariah from and making improvements. That was the Great Divine improvement for that era to realize killing his own son is a bad idea from a false god. By our standards today its an ass backward $h!th0le society overcoming a far worse $hith*le society if anything is true or redeeming about Abraham's integrity. He was an improvement for His Time and Era.

Quote:
These people believed not in one God but in many gods, to whom they ascribed miracles; therefore, they all arose against Him, and no one supported Him except Lot, His brother's son, and one or two other people of no importance. At last, reduced to the utmost distress by the opposition of His enemies, He was obliged to leave His native land. In reality they banished Him in order that He might be crushed and destroyed, and that no trace of Him might be left.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 12)

Which is like saying Fred Flinstone is an improvement over other more barbaric and sadistic cavemen for smacking Wilma on her bum instead of using his club to beat her to death when he suspectS She's having an affair with Barney. LOL

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 07-21-2018 at 12:26 PM.
 
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