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Old 07-21-2018, 02:09 PM   #1
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Forgiving the Unforgivable

Before I broach this very difficult subject I just would like to say that if anyone ever met any of the old ethnically Persian Bahais who grew up around Haifa during the times of Shoghi Effendi especially Mr. Ali Nakhjavani and Adib Taherzadeh and some others you might immediately recognize they have kind of funny very dignified regal tone when they talk English that's very eloquent but almost foreign

Kind of like Ricardo Montalban? LOL

Anyways Ali Nakhjavani in his Speech delivered to Green Acre School in 2012 starts talking about Forgiveness. He really does kind of a lame job here because he doesn't talk about forgiving the Unforgivable. He doesn't describe some of the most difficult people to forgive and the more unspeakable difficult crimes to forgive someone from:



He starts talking about "we all have weak points" here: starting 21:36

and putting "we all have weak points" isn't even in the Ocean

neither is

23:35
"conceal and forgive the faults of others so that god will forgive your own faults" etc. quoting Baha'u'llah from something he found in Arabic untranslated?


And then if you can do that:

and then wash away shortcomings from your heart

and

"clothes you with His beauteous garment" is the reward? Is that some kind of old Muslim Middleastern metaphor for all the elaborate opulant robes they all wear? Like the human body is something you're suppose to be so ashamed of that its like some kind of reward to get a "beauteous garment" or what?

What if you want to simply have a healthy athletic high performance body and be beautiful completely naked instead with everything fully operational and functional? I don't want some antiquated howling towel head cultural ideas about beauty restoration if all it means is clothes. I want to feel comfortable with my buck naked body and have an attractive buck naked body.








Such as American Indian genocide and child torture concentration camps done in boarding schools for indigineous people


This Woman who is a Buddhist. Forgiving the Unforgivable | San Francisco Zen Center Its interesting how she almost talks a lot like Bahais would when they claim the power they are channelling is done in service to Baha'u'llah like she is channelling through Buddha.
 
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Old 07-21-2018, 03:12 PM   #2
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Its interesting how she almost talks a lot like Bahais would when they claim the power they are channelling is done in service to Baha'u'llah like she is channelling through Buddha.
We see there is no difference in the Channel Used. They both are of God.

Forgiveness is a gift for us to give. Those that have been treated most unfairly are potentially the greatest of forgivers.

Regards Tony
 
Old 07-22-2018, 04:44 PM   #3
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He Who forgiveth even the most grievous of sins

Forgiving grievous of sins

Quote:
"O Thou Provider, O Thou Forgiver! Grant us Thy grace and loving-kindness, Thy gifts and Thy bestowals, and sustain us, that we may attain our goal. Thou art the Powerful, the Able, the Knower, the Seer; and verily Thou art the Generous, and verily Thou art the All-Merciful, and verily Thou art the Ever-Forgiving, He to Whom repentance is due, He Who forgiveth even the most grievous of sins."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 233)

 
Old 07-22-2018, 04:56 PM   #4
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Forgiving grievous of sins
Thank you that is a wonderful prayer. I am very inspired by those that acheive the intent of this prayer.

Those that suffer most,have the greatest gift to give, there are great stories about Abdul'baha and forgiveness.

Well done to all of them.

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 07-22-2018 at 04:58 PM.
 
Old 07-23-2018, 12:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
"clothes you with His beauteous garment" is the reward? Is that some kind of old Muslim Middleastern metaphor for all the elaborate opulant robes they all wear? Like the human body is something you're suppose to be so ashamed of that its like some kind of reward to get a "beauteous garment" or what?
Dear goodness!! Aren't you an occultist?? Why on earth do you insist on being so literal, when you seem to be so engaged with the world of the non-literal??

Do you think when alchemist Manly Palmer Hall talks about the "Golden Wedding Garment" that he is taking about a literal, physical, cloth-of-gold, outfit??

Reunion with God symbolized as clothing is fairly common and even, dare I say, mundane symbolism within the field of mysticism. It sort of baffles me that you are apparently versed in things like Hermeticism and alchemy and astrology and yet that common mystic symbolic phrase can slip past you undetected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
This Woman who is a Buddhist. Forgiving the Unforgivable | San Francisco Zen Center Its interesting how she almost talks a lot like Bahais would when they claim the power they are channelling is done in service to Baha'u'llah like she is channelling through Buddha.
Yeah, unity through religion observed right here.

Also why the enormous text??
 
Old 07-23-2018, 02:35 PM   #6
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re: Forgiving the Unforgivable

Quote:
Dear goodness!! Aren't you an occultist?? Why on earth do you insist on being so literal, when you seem to be so engaged with the world of the non-literal?? etc . .. . common mystic symbolic phrase can slip past you undetected.
Oh I'm poking a little fun at some of the cultural Bias of 19th century Islamic culture. Ali Nakhjavani is a great lifetime Bahai who served on the Universal House of Justice. Forgiveness of cruel acts is a very IMPORTANT, controversial and difficult topic. probably the essence of spirituality.

Symbolism of Baha'u'llah awarding gifts of more external material ornaments doesn't suit me as a kind of promise of some kind of reward for being forbearing and forgiving to unforgivable acts. Does that suit you?



If someone were to cause some permanent disability in a car wreck, extreme child abuse and child torture, all the beauteous silk and custom designed tailor made garments you can possibly imagine isn't gonna help a paraplegic walk, a disfigured deformed burn victime person retrieve his or her beautiful youthful face. If I'm suppose to forgive someone for something cruel, I need some assurance that there will be somkekind of complete reparation, reconciliation, regeneration, and repair for damages. If this lifetime is so darn finite and transitory, it only seems reasonable that if someone is cruel and has no shame and commits some horrible crime, the victim who is permanently injured or dead gets a better lifetime.

"Forgiving the Unforgivable

A Dharma talk given by Shosan Vicki Austin on Saturday, January 12, 2013, at San Francisco Zen Center."
somewhere in that Dharma talk Forgiving the Unforgivable | San Francisco Zen Center makes it clear there is a certain amount of refraining from being complicit in a perpetrator's horrific deeds that gets confused with lack of forgiveness.

This is a deep sensitive topic and Ali Nakhjavani barely scratched the surface. You'd think someone like him would know something about unforgivable acts of treachery against Shoghi Effendi by his own family, the persecution of bahais in Irand, and others to distinguish forgiveness and refraining from being complicit in a criminal's abhorrent behavior.

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 07-23-2018 at 04:43 PM.
 
Old 07-24-2018, 06:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Oh I'm poking a little fun at some of the cultural Bias of 19th century Islamic culture.
Oh, I'm just poking a little fun at your bizarre insistence on holding to the literal in mystic symbolism and your inability to read the symbolism here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Symbolism of Baha'u'llah awarding gifts of more external material ornaments doesn't suit me as a kind of promise of some kind of reward for being forbearing and forgiving to unforgivable acts. Does that suit you?
So, sorry. I assumed you were more knowledgeable on the subject of symbolism then you are. Based on your first posts here, I thought you'd be versed in a topic like this, as based on your expressed knowledge, I'd assume you'd have already come across this symbolism before and not need it spelled out.

But to explain some basic mystic symbolism, what you describe is not what is being symbolized in that verse.

So "O SON OF MAN! Divest not thyself of My beauteous robe, and forfeit not thy portion from My wondrous fountain, lest thou shouldst thirst for evermore." is the exact same symbolism that was used two thousand years ago in Matthew 22:12, "‘Friend, he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ But the man was speechless."

The "garments" spoken of in mystic symbolism are not a reward given to us or anything like that, but symbolically speak of that mystic quality with which we clothe ourselves to go forward into reunion with the divine, and how lacking that quality, reunion is impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Ali Nakhjavani is a great lifetime Bahai who served on the Universal House of Justice. Forgiveness of cruel acts is a very IMPORTANT, controversial and difficult topic. probably the essence of spirituality.
Yeah, I'd say works of fiction or parables are the best method of tackling the topic of forgiveness. I just think it's a powerful story when we can see the character at their darkest -- in the nigredo, in terms alchemical -- and follow their redemption and transformation over the course of the story!!

Which is why Pulp Fiction is my favorite spiritual movie, even if I might be the only person on the face of this planet to view it as a spiritual movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
If someone were to cause some permanent disability in a car wreck, extreme child abuse and child torture, all the beauteous silk and custom designed tailor made garments you can possibly imagine isn't gonna help a paraplegic walk, a disfigured deformed burn victime person retrieve his or her beautiful youthful face.
Ohmygoodness, you're still taking it soooooo literally.

No. You're wrong. Obtaining that beauteous garment makes such petty concerns as the ability to walk melt away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
If I'm suppose to forgive someone for something cruel, I need some assurance that there will be somkekind of complete reparation, reconciliation, regeneration, and repair for damages. If this lifetime is so darn finite and transitory, it only seems reasonable that if someone is cruel and has no shame and commits some horrible crime, the victim who is permanently injured or dead gets a better lifetime.
If that's your view, I think you need to study alchemy a bit more. The alchemical process of transformation is of great importance to this topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
"Forgiving the Unforgivable

A Dharma talk given by Shosan Vicki Austin on Saturday, January 12, 2013, at San Francisco Zen Center."
somewhere in that Dharma talk Forgiving the Unforgivable | San Francisco Zen Center makes it clear there is a certain amount of refraining from being complicit in a perpetrator's horrific deeds that gets confused with lack of forgiveness.

This is a deep sensitive topic and Ali Nakhjavani barely scratched the surface. You'd think someone like him would know something about unforgivable acts of treachery against Shoghi Effendi by his own family, the persecution of bahais in Irand, and others to distinguish forgiveness and refraining from being complicit in a criminal's abhorrent behavior.
After listening, Shosan Vicki Austin barely scratches the surface of the topic. I think fiction is the best method of teaching this topic, and no other one can come close to that. You have to be with the character undergoing the transformation of redemption to be able to understand them, and through that, understand the mechanism of redemption for what it is.
 
Old 07-24-2018, 03:59 PM   #8
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Walrus Writes
Quote:
Yeah, I'd say works of fiction or parables are the best method of tackling the topic of forgiveness. I just think it's a powerful story when we can see the character at their darkest -- in the nigredo, in terms alchemical -- and follow their redemption and transformation over the course of the story!!

Which is why Pulp Fiction is my favorite spiritual movie, even if I might be the only person on the face of this planet to view it as a spiritual movie.


yeah right
whatever real spiritual good acting career and fortune quinten tarantino has made. You'll get to abha kingdom real quick
knowing you know not to take literal
and demand some thing real
and just love fiction.
 
Old 07-25-2018, 05:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Walrus Writes



yeah right
whatever real spiritual good acting career and fortune quinten tarantino has made. You'll get to abha kingdom real quick
knowing you know not to take literal
and demand some thing real
and just love fiction.
That's 'cause you're looking at the wrong characters, much like how were looking at the wrong thing when examining the clothing metaphor.

You're looking at the Darkness, the Nigredo, not the character that pulled themselves out of that Darkness. The movie's spiritual component is from the redemption of Jules Winnfield, who emerges from that world of darkness that your clip emphasizes. (But again, yeah, I'm probably the only person in the world who views that movie in a spiritual light)

I think it's important in fiction to see the full extent of the darkness so that the power of the redemption narrative can be seen in its transformative glory!!

Last edited by Walrus; 07-25-2018 at 05:56 AM.
 
Old 07-25-2018, 02:03 PM   #10
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Hi,

Sometimes it is enormously difficult to forgive, but that becomes our task to do. When we don't forgive we fail. We wrong ourselves. In fact, from my understanding of the writings, even the word "unforgivable" really has no place in our lexicon. It is even like a sort of blaspheme, because when we withhold forgiveness it is as if we decide someone is not not worthy of being forgiven and that is like a judgment, but it is for God alone to judge his creation, not for us. I think perhaps one of the reasons we struggle to forgive is when he have the wrong perspective or when we fail to remember the big picture: Nothing in this world is meant to endure. It is a temporary place, a netherworld. It is a place of training and learning, and even the most terrible things that have or will occur are of no more significance, in the grand scheme of things, than a plane crash in a flight simulator. That we are in this world at all is a strong and compelling illusion. However, if our teachings are true, it is an illusion nonetheless. If we are all only here a little while and for our training, then what is there that we can not forgive really? If we can find a way to become true believers, I think we will find that there is nothing we can't forgive. This is my struggle too.

Cheers

Last edited by Luqman; 07-25-2018 at 02:23 PM.
 
Old 07-25-2018, 02:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luqman View Post
Hi,

Sometimes it is enormously difficult to forgive, but that becomes our task to do. When we don't forgive we fail. We wrong ourselves. In fact, from my understanding of the writings, even the word "unforgivable" really has no place in our lexicon. It is even like a sort of blaspheme, because when we withhold forgiveness it is as if we decide someone is not not worthy of being forgiven and that is like a judgment, and it is not for God alone to judge his creation, not for us. I think perhaps one of the reasons we struggle to forgive is when he have the wrong perspective or when we fail to remember the big picture: Nothing in this world is meant to endure. It is a temporary place, a netherworld. It is a place of training and learning, and even the most terrible things that have or will occur are of no more significance, in the grand scheme of things, than a plane crash in a flight simulator. That we are in this world at all is a strong and compelling illusion, but if our teachings are true, it is an illusion nonetheless. If we are all only here a little while and for our training, then what is there that we can not forgive really? If we can find a way to become true believers, I think we will find that there is nothing we can't forgive. This is my struggle too.

Cheers
That is why I missed you

Welcome back and with great advice.

Regards Tony
 
Old 07-25-2018, 03:12 PM   #12
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"Everyone has a Breaking point"



Luqman writes:
Quote:
Hi,

Sometimes it is enormously difficult to forgive, but that becomes our task to do. When we don't forgive we fail. We wrong ourselves. In fact, from my understanding of the writings, even the word "unforgivable" really has no place in our lexicon. It is even like a sort of blaspheme, because when we withhold forgiveness it is as if we decide someone is not not worthy of being forgiven and that is like a judgment, but it is for God alone to judge his creation, not for us. I think perhaps one of the reasons we struggle to forgive is when he have the wrong perspective or when we fail to remember the big picture: Nothing in this world is meant to endure. It is a temporary place, a netherworld. It is a place of training and learning, and even the most terrible things that have or will occur are of no more significance, in the grand scheme of things, than a plane crash in a flight simulator. That we are in this world at all is a strong and compelling illusion. However, if our teachings are true, it is an illusion nonetheless. If we are all only here a little while and for our training, then what is there that we can not forgive really? If we can find a way to become true believers, I think we will find that there is nothing we can't forgive. This is my struggle too.

Cheers
I wonder if anyone insisting we must always forgive and forget dares to even bother to explain the state of mind where that forgiveness is proven as authentic, genuine, bonafide true forgiveness? In one of those Wellbriety Movement videos there's a lecturer who explains that the worst genocidal psychopathic child abusing rapist lost souls, the crew of Christopher Columbus, were reacting to the torture that was done to them. There's a relief to perceive what extreme abuse possesses someone to feel no empathy to react in total blind hatred with no care of any collateral damage because as Jesus put it "forgive them for they know not what they do". I suppose maybe being able to completely perceive someone's abhorrent behavior as simply ignorance. Maybe that's Forgiveness? but there's still a certain complicity if you do nothing to stop such abhorrent behavior.
.
 
Old 07-25-2018, 03:27 PM   #13
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Returnofzeal,

If you kill my brother, I must find a way to forgive you. But sometimes we are required to wear many hats at once and there are others who are charged with keeping order in society, and they must administer justice and mete out punishment. However, it is possible to administer justice and at the same time forgive. Perhaps the greater difficulty may be that you would ultimately need to find a way to forgive yourself too.

Cheers

Last edited by Luqman; 07-25-2018 at 07:10 PM.
 
Old 07-26-2018, 10:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
I wonder if anyone insisting we must always forgive and forget dares to even bother to explain the state of mind where that forgiveness is proven as authentic, genuine, bonafide true forgiveness? In one of those Wellbriety Movement videos there's a lecturer who explains that the worst genocidal psychopathic child abusing rapist lost souls, the crew of Christopher Columbus, were reacting to the torture that was done to them. There's a relief to perceive what extreme abuse possesses someone to feel no empathy to react in total blind hatred with no care of any collateral damage because as Jesus put it "forgive them for they know not what they do". I suppose maybe being able to completely perceive someone's abhorrent behavior as simply ignorance. Maybe that's Forgiveness? but there's still a certain complicity if you do nothing to stop such abhorrent behavior.
Forgiveness is not necessarily for the sake of the forgiven, but the one who gives that forgiveness. Anger and vengeance are attachments that cause suffering and control your actions.

By all means, stop the unjust from committing injustice. But for the sake of your own spirit, forgive the unjust to be free from their control over you.
 
Old 07-26-2018, 12:18 PM   #15
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These are not easy topics for the lightweight Bahai seekers and for those who are consistently offended by my posts and don't see a shred of appropriate place to discuss them anywhere. Maybe you might wanna go either pound sand or go to your nearest little Ruhi 1 lightweight softcore Bahai deepening in some little local bahai community in smug complacent suburbia of North America? They'll treat you to tea and cookies and crispy tadiq saffron rice too.
 
Old 07-26-2018, 12:30 PM   #16
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Our example is Abdul'baha.

Abdul'baha gave many a talk while he served His guests and made them happy.

I do not recall rude delivery of Baha'u'llahs Message.

Regards Tony
 
Old 07-26-2018, 01:01 PM   #17
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These are not easy topics for the lightweight Bahai seekers and for those who are consistently offended by my posts and don't see a shred of appropriate place to discuss them anywhere.
You seem enslaved by your attachments in your often stand-offish attitudes. Perhaps you are in grave need of forgiveness and the liberation it brings. What use to you are these attachments that bring you such suffering??
 
Old 07-26-2018, 05:52 PM   #18
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Our example is Abdul'baha.

Abdul'baha gave many a talk while he served His guests and made them happy.

I do not recall rude delivery of Baha'u'llahs Message.

Regards Tony
Abdu'l-Baha essentially said his treacherous little brother was a p.o.s. in His Will And Testament because he essentially was.

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 07-26-2018 at 05:56 PM.
 
Old 07-26-2018, 06:07 PM   #19
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You seem enslaved by your attachments in your often stand-offish attitudes. Perhaps you are in grave need of forgiveness and the liberation it brings. What use to you are these attachments that bring you such suffering??
Perhaps you are in need of seeing a lot complacent naive willfully ignorant arrogant people as already better off in need of a grave for ignoring red flags of child abuse in Bahai communities, of all places?
 
Old 07-26-2018, 06:49 PM   #20
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Perhaps you are in need of seeing a lot complacent naive willfully ignorant arrogant people as already better off in need of a grave for ignoring red flags of child abuse in Bahai communities, of all places?
Child abuse needs to be squashed, no matter where it raises its ugly head.

What one has to understand here is that it is no magic wand when someone finds and accepts Baha'u'llah. This world has become a cesspool to live in, one can not escape with some amount of dirt upon them. Some will take longer to clean than others.

That is why we have to be a new race of men.

Regards Tony
 
Old 07-27-2018, 05:29 AM   #21
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Perhaps you are in need of seeing a lot complacent naive willfully ignorant arrogant people as already better off in need of a grave for ignoring red flags of child abuse in Bahai communities, of all places?
So indeed, you are a slave to wrath and murderous desires. Currently, you are just allowing child abusers to control your feelings and actions.
 
Old 07-28-2018, 11:17 AM   #22
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So indeed, you are a slave to wrath and murderous desires. Currently, you are just allowing child abusers to control your feelings and actions.
Yeah I don't deny I'm somewhat upset that there are child abusers who get away with such abuse with a certain extended impunity.

At least I can find verses where Baha'u'llah says God will take care of business eventually and soon enough if no one else cares in a position to do so, or if I should find myself impotent:

Quote:
The necks of men are stretched out in malice: Where are the swords of Thy vengeance, O Destroyer of the worlds?

(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 214)



And At least I'm not categorically condemning anyone specific who I've never met IRL as "a slave" TO ANYTHING like you would do to me WHO I really doubt you've ever met IRL.


"29. O SON OF BEING!
Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

"
 
Old 08-05-2018, 08:46 PM   #23
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Thanks for sharing.
 
Old 08-06-2018, 04:59 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Yeah I don't deny I'm somewhat upset that there are child abusers who get away with such abuse with a certain extended impunity.

At least I can find verses where Baha'u'llah says God will take care of business eventually and soon enough if no one else cares in a position to do so, or if I should find myself impotent:






And At least I'm not categorically condemning anyone specific who I've never met IRL as "a slave" TO ANYTHING like you would do to me WHO I really doubt you've ever met IRL.


"29. O SON OF BEING!
Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

"

I'm so glad to see, despite the fact that there are many things that you rage against (and I'm sure we all do at times), that you still find solace and strength in the words of Baha'u'llah. It means a lot to me knowing you are actually one of us. I'm glad you are here.

Cheers
 
Old 08-06-2018, 07:04 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
That's 'cause you're looking at the wrong characters, much like how were looking at the wrong thing when examining the clothing metaphor.

You're looking at the Darkness, the Nigredo, not the character that pulled themselves out of that Darkness. The movie's spiritual component is from the redemption of Jules Winnfield, who emerges from that world of darkness that your clip emphasizes. (But again, yeah, I'm probably the only person in the world who views that movie in a spiritual light)

I think it's important in fiction to see the full extent of the darkness so that the power of the redemption narrative can be seen in its transformative glory!!
But I'm trying, Walrus. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd.
 
Old 08-06-2018, 07:31 AM   #26
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And At least I'm not categorically condemning anyone specific who I've never met IRL as "a slave" TO ANYTHING like you would do to me WHO I really doubt you've ever met IRL.
In the spirit of quoting Pulp Fiction, "If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions."

If you want to know why it is we should forgive people, the answer is to free ourselves from slavery to our self. If you don't like the implications of that answer, I'm sorry.

So if you took offense to my choice of words, I apologize, but there are three things I'd like to point out. First of all, I'd say this quote here shows I am not the one making the categorization, just labeling it. You ascribe that quality to yourself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Yeah I don't deny I'm somewhat upset that there are child abusers who get away with such abuse with a certain extended impunity.
Secondly, you take offense at my use of the word "slave", yet you feel free to call people "lightweight Bahai seekers", "complacent", "naive", "ignorant", and "arrogant", and that's only just this thread.

And of third note:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
"29. O SON OF BEING!
Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)"
Of course, this verse is only relevant if I would not have this quality ascribed to myself. And I would indeed say I too am a slave to my self!! The number of people free from their self is greatly outweighed by those of us who are not. Detachment is not a simple feat.

So I again apologize if you don't appreciate the frankness of my word choice on this subject, but yes, the vast majority of us are all slaves to our selves, and the reason we must learn to forgive even the unforgivable is for the sake of our own liberation out of that slavery.

If a tyrant took control of us and demanded that we take outrage at this, or consume that, or indulge in any number of things, we'd recognize that tyrant as a tyrant and slavery as the thing that tyrant imposes on us. So I wonder why it is hard to recognize that tyrant as a tyrant when that tyrant is our own attachments dictating our actions.

But perhaps the topic of self-slavery isn't an "easy topic" for "lightweight seekers" (as you would put it) and bringing it up might cause offense to be taken.
 
Old 08-06-2018, 07:32 AM   #27
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But I'm trying, Walrus. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd.
Heh, so maybe I'm not the only one who sees it.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 12:03 AM   #28
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We should forgive not only in words but also our actions should show that we have forgiven ....lets deeds not words be your adorning
 
Old 08-07-2018, 02:08 PM   #29
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do you even have clue what forgiveness is?

To say whether or not someone else can or cannot forgive means you have to have someone do some wrong to you at least as bad as that victim you claim to say can or cannot forgive. It really does. Unless you are victim to such offense you have no clue what you are talking about whether you are Ali Nakhjavani Mr. Roark from Fantasy Island.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 02:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
To say whether or not someone else can or cannot forgive means you have to have someone do some wrong to you at least as bad as that victim you claim to say can or cannot forgive. It really does. Unless you are victim to such offense you have no clue what you are talking about whether you are Ali Nakhjavani Mr. Roark from Fantasy Island.
We are not talking about offenses, but about a spiritual principle. To put it hashly, it is the same, whether you have been pushed by someone in the subway, or had your sisters and brothers killed in a concentration camp. But the test of reaching forgiveness of course is much tougher in the latter case.

gnat
 
Old 08-07-2018, 03:00 PM   #31
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Justice is more important than forgiveness

Quote:
O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)


reading Walrus 's and Gnat 's armchair critic latest posts are about as interesting as watching latex paint dry. [stiffled yawn] If someone commits some crime, especially resulting in injury, the victims and those privy to witnessing the crime, along those who believe the victims' testimony, all know that such crimes are likely to continue, are all responsible for delivering Justice A.S.A.P. long before "forgiveness" can ever happen. Its that simple according to Baha'u'llah's own words Justice is The Most Beloved. That Means Justice is the Priority. Baha'u'llah is saying screw forgiveness if it means compromising JUSTICE. GET IT?

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 08-07-2018 at 03:58 PM.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 03:45 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
reading Walrus 's and Gnat 's armchair critic latest posts are about as interesting as watching latex paint dry. [stiffled yawn] If someone commits some crime, especially resulting in injury, the victims and those privy to witnessing the crime, those who believe the victims' testimony, know that such crimes are likely to continure, are all responsible for delivering Justice A.S.A.P. long before "forgiveness" can ever happen. Its that simple according to Baha'u'llah's own words Justice is The Most Beloved. That Means Justice is the Priority. Baha'u'llah is saying screw forgiviness unless and until justice gets compromised. GET IT?
And you are a rude and uninteresting person, obsessed with his own feelings.

gnat
 
Old 08-07-2018, 03:59 PM   #33
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gnat

you're just a petty insect
 
Old 08-07-2018, 04:52 PM   #34
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gnat

you're just a petty insect
You are absolutely right, and that's the very point. I don't consider my own emotions so important that they overrule the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh.

gnat
 
Old 08-07-2018, 05:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
reading Walrus 's and Gnat 's armchair critic latest posts are about as interesting as watching latex paint dry. [stiffled yawn] If someone commits some crime, especially resulting in injury, the victims and those privy to witnessing the crime, along those who believe the victims' testimony, all know that such crimes are likely to continue, are all responsible for delivering Justice A.S.A.P. long before "forgiveness" can ever happen. Its that simple according to Baha'u'llah's own words Justice is The Most Beloved. That Means Justice is the Priority. Baha'u'llah is saying screw forgiveness if it means compromising JUSTICE. GET IT?

Justice is a word that can have many meanings depending on the context. Although I don't think it is necessary to know Arabic in order to understand the writings, it is at least helpful in this case. The word "justice" in this passage comes from the Arabic 'insaf' that could also be translated as fairness. A synonym for just is fair. I always keep that in mind when reading the above Hidden Word. It is a subtle but not insignificant distinction.

There is a clue in the body of the passage that the meaning of justice in the context of the quote is nearest to the definition of justice that is synonymous with fairness: "By its aid [justice] thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others..." This is a description of fair-mindedness. Therefore, it is being fair (just) that we are called to and justice in the sense of being fair, that is the "best-beloved of all things."

Cheers

Last edited by Luqman; 08-08-2018 at 02:56 PM.
 
Old 08-08-2018, 07:11 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
gnat

you're just a petty insect
That post is the funniest thing in the thread, given that Gnat himself has made many, many posts on this forum saying that exact same thing about himself.

Last edited by Walrus; 08-08-2018 at 11:33 AM.
 
Old 08-08-2018, 10:36 AM   #37
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I think we all need forgiveness from others at some point in our lives. If we refuse to forgive others, isn't that like saying, I'm better than you? Isn't it like saying I deserve forgiveness, but you don't? Is there anything that can not be forgiven? I don't think there is. I realize it's not simple or easy to forgive another person or person's that have deeply hurt us, but I believe it is possible. Now, if I don't forgive doesn't that have the potential to hurt me? If I keep that anger inside could it not be internalized into bitterness and resentment or externalized into explosive episodes of anger? I think forgiveness is essential for our health, as a whole person.

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Old 08-08-2018, 12:05 PM   #38
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He Who forgiveth even the most grievous of sins.

[QUOTE]O Thou kind Lord! We are servants of Thy Threshold, taking shelter at Thy holy Door. We seek no refuge save only this strong pillar, turn nowhere for a haven but unto Thy safekeeping. Protect us, bless us, support us, make us such that we shall love but Thy good pleasure, utter only Thy praise, follow only the pathway of truth, that we may become rich enough to dispense with all save Thee, and receive our gifts from the sea of Thy beneficence, that we may ever strive to exalt Thy Cause and to spread Thy sweet savors far and wide, that we may become oblivious of self and occupied only with Thee, and disown all else and be caught up in Thee.

O Thou Provider, O Thou Forgiver! Grant us Thy grace and loving-kindness, Thy gifts and Thy bestowals, and sustain us, that we may attain our 23 goal. Thou art the Powerful, the Able, the Knower, the Seer; and, verily, Thou art the Generous, and, verily, Thou art the All-Merciful, and, verily, Thou art the Ever-Forgiving, He to Whom repentance is due, He Who forgiveth even the most grievous of sins.

'Abdu'l-Bahá

(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 22)
 
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