SpiritualSeeker

I wrote this to a friend who kept asking me why I left islam.

I copy and paste it here to see any thoughts of the Bahais

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I have had for some years some doubts that have lingered on concerning my faith. Some things I buried and decided not to answer them, as not to doubt the Deen. But as I grow older in the Deen I felt that there needs to be answers or else.



One of the issues which I mentioned before is the Marriage to Aisha. I have heard all the arguments to defend the marriage. However, these answers are unsatisfactory. I know that according to hadith Aisha was married at the age of 6 and that the consumation of the marriage did not take place until the age of 9. At the age of 9 is when it is said that Aisha had menses. I totally understand this. However, it is still at this young age that Aisha was playing with other children. As there is evidence in the hadith of Bukhari





volume 5, #234

"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."



Also, another evidence to support that she was still immature is another hadith by way of Sahih muslim which indicates she was a girl who still played with dolls.



Here is the hadith



'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)



Also we have this hadith (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)



When the Apostle of Allah arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.



Now one can argue that she was still a woman, I totally understand but just because one right away has the menses doesnt mean they are mature enough for sexual activity.



Many doubts lingered when I heard of the many mormon cults with their young child brides,but then I realized that it should be acceptable even though some of those girls were traumatized. Now just because some girls may not be traumatized does not make it right to me. According to Sh Munajid of Islam qa he says its permissible for us to marry underage women because the Prophet did. here is the link Islam QA - Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses? . Now he said you cannot have sex with them, but it doesnt matter, as soon as the girl bleeds its sex time. I highly disagree with this. And disagreeing with the divine shariah constitutes apostasy by the Ulama of Islam.



Since we are discussion Aisha, I will express my doubts concerning Islam and Justice of Women.



Before I officially left Islam I was looking through one of my books by Jamal ad-din Zarabozo where he translated a text on Marital Discord. Basically in the book he condoned hitting women. This is ofcourse lightly, but no excuse this is not justice for me. And along with this a woman does not have the right to hit a husband if he is out of line. Plus in the book it said this can occur ofcourse after the 3 steps (first advising, forsaking the beds, then beat them) he says it can be done even if the wife just disobeys her husband by just leaving the house to see her parents without his permission. When I read that I was a bit shock. The author quoted evidence from Ibn Abbas and other of the Sahabah. It is too much to quote here..



Not only that but we know that the process is three folds as I explained above (you admonish the wife, then forsake the bed, then beat) yet the Prophet according to an authentic hadith did not do the 3 fold method with Aisha once. On one occasion Aisha made an insulting remark about Khadijah and The prophet muhammad immediatley struck her chest. This is authentic. He did not admonish first, and then forsake in bed, and then as a final result beat her. Instead he instantanously struck her. How is it muslims must follow the 3 fold method, but he gets to skip the first two and strike? A strike is a strike. You may say a push or something was the case, but hitting is abusive. Regardless if its a little pat or a push. I dont buy it.



This is not justice. In Islam if a man wants his wife to stay in the house at all times she must obey him. As the nabi said that if he would have someone prostrate to other than Allah, then he would have women prostrate to the husband.



People may defend this by saying, "Well the man has responsibility of taking care of the wife", but this is no excuse. If I wanted I could make my wife a slave, staying at the house at all times. That is why in some islamic countries this occurs. Afghanistan is just one tiny example of it. This is done in pakistan, and arab world, including the most holiest place, mecca and medina. I know of a woman who just stays in the house all day with children. Internet is her only escape.



To go along with this in Sunni hadiths it is authentic that if a woman refuses to have sex with her husband the angels will curse her all night long.



This is injustice. First note that it is not the other way around. Even though women get aroused much aswell, but if they are horny and the men are not , the men can refuse them without fearing curses from the angels. This is complete injustice. First sometimes women are not in the mood, shame on the men who make their wives sleep with them regardless. One can again say that , since men take care of the wives the wives must do this but this is just a gross error. If women can be forced to be confined to the houses and forced to have sex (because really it is forced, if they are not in the mood) then this is not justice. I was watching a story the other night on television about a woman whose husband would have her be sexual when she did not want to. She herself said she felt sexually assaulted in a way even though he was not "raping" her.





I do not buy this as justice. Even if one says that the men have to cloth and feed and house the woman, make no excuse this does not sit well in my stomach.



You said that Islam treats women better than other religions and this is just false. In the Bahai Faith (and No I am not bahai) Women and men are equal and the honor of women is even more intensely expressed. This is not just from internet readings, I have met with many bahais now and discussed this. It is not as rigid as their obedience in Islam. Matter of fact, according to Bahais if parents can only afford one child to be schooled , then the girls are to be schooled first, since they are the future mothers.



In buddhism women are honored and are taught just like men to become enlighten. They have equality.



Another issue is concerning the earlier political strife in islam.



After the Passing of the Prophet is truely when the sunni and Shia split occured. This is not just a myth this is fact. I have studied this for YEARS literally. It occured when a group of muslims in small numbers nominated Abu Bakr as the caliph. Another group at that time consisted of mainly the Family of the Prophet (Ahluh bayt). The family consisting of Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husayn, Ibn abbas, Umm salam. They did not want to swear allegiance to abu bakr. This caused so much fitnah that Umar threatened Fatima and her family. This is recorded in authentic hadith.



According to History it is said that he attempted to go through with the threat. And thus it is said that Ali gave allegiance to abu bakr after 6 months.



The reason Ali did not swear allegiance is because he and other muslims believed that the Prophet Muhammad chose him as the successor. There are many hadiths to support this (and no I am not a Shia I am not MUSLIM).



Anyways since this occured after the years of passing caliphate it came to the time of Muawiyah and Yazid (yazid the son of muawiyah who severed the Head of Husayn -the grandson of the prophet-). So after their reign the ummayad came into power and this is when sunni hadith started to get popular. However, sects had broken off and people narrated hadiths just to support their sectarianism. This is not mythical this actually occured. That is why the Shia and Sunni argue over this issue. There are some works that I suggest reading by a Shia Scholar called "Abu Hurayra" in which he shows how Abu Hurayra fabricated many hadiths and provides evidence that even Aisha discredited abu hurayra. Yet Abu Hurayra has recited the most hadith of any companions. Anyways I will not go into length with this issue, but through my studies I have realized that there seems to be fabrication in hadiths. Even though a Muhadith (scholar of hadith) may declare something as authentic, does not mean I should accept it, because the Umayads established fabricated hadiths with "reliable" narrators. Just me speaking on this could take pages and pages so I will only be brief.



Next Topic is how about belief system and Science. I think you misunderstood me when I brought this up in the text message. This is about actual science and psychology vs the Islamic view and also many other religious views.



It has to do with how our beliefs actually shape our brains. This is not fairy tales, but our beliefs does change and shape our brains literally. There is a great book on this which I recommend anyone who is interested in this called, "How God Changes Your Brain". It is a new book and it is just great with the science behind our beliefs.



Anyways concerning this issue, is the Belief of "US AND THEM" What this means is when we have the Attitude of "We are Right They are wrong" and the belief that "We are believers they are kuffar!" and the belief of "No befriending the Kuffar"



The reason why this is an issue is because if we have these views it changes our brains in a negetive way. If we hold these views it causes the parts of our brain that light up are those that are associated with fighting and anger. That is why there is so much war. Not just muslims but Christians and jews and hindus. So these beliefs of wala and baraa which means (Love and Hate for sake of Allah) causes negetivity in the brain itself. It causes one to lack compassion for those not within your faith. This is science it is not refutable. Someone can come up with many arguments, but you cannot change these findings in the many studies and sciences that have explored these things.



This is the same when one believes in an Authoritarian God who becomes angry with infidels or those who do not believe like you. According to this book and the scientific findings it states we must learn to be open minded. So basically if one is close minded it affects your health and pysiology. This is science. Being openminded doesnt mean one has to leave their religion, but it does mean they have to open up more.



That is why there is a study with people of different religions that are open minded seem to be more compassionate. The more compassionate one is the more your brain changes to make one happy and whole. That is why Buddhist and Bahais are very happy people and learn to empathize with others. There are some muslims who are like this too, mostly the Sufis.





So, If I would stay in the Islamic view of the world I would open up the anger and fighting parts of my brain which is negetive to my happiness, physical well being, and to the happiness and well being of others in humanity.



Moving on another reason why I left Islam is I find that many religions are pointing to the same thing. That doesnt mean that I follow all religions. But What im pointing out is that many of the religions and in particular the groups of Mystics in these religion all point to the very same exact conclusions.



An example is a Sufi who spends much time doing dhikr and Muraqabah, they eventually reach a state of Fana (annhilation but this is not necessarily the world wide accepted term) this is a state where they become interconnected with all that exist. Sometimes this is called wahdat al wujud or (oneness in being) This is where one is interbeing. So a Sufi in this state sees everything connected, he sees that he is equal with all humanity and even with inanimate objects.



Now this is something that Christian and jewish mystics experience. This is when Christian, jewish, hindus, and sufis say that they Reached GOD or reached Allah as the Sufis say (We witness Allah without a veil!).



The buddhist have similar experience they reach the experience of "no-self" where they see everything as empty (empty of a self) and thus they see the whole universe is one and they are one with the universe.



So, these high and lofty achievements are EXACT in all the major religions of the world.



If I step back on the fence and say well If Islam is right then howcome a jewish, christian, hindu and buddhist mystic can experience the same Goal of (Ihsan)?



When I experienced this realization I knew that it is not all or nothing or all black or white. Or us and them. It seemed that these teachings if one adopts the compassion and reflections will eventually arive at the same goal.



If im a stict muslim I will reject stating that only the True Muslims or Sufis can experience these and all others are on their false delusions. However, from experiences people experience the same exact thing. I find this very important. This may not be important to you but it is deeply important to me, especially since I dwell into Mystical aspects of life.



Also one thing that has made me doubt is how we can indeed see our ancestors in our dreams and other "alive " beings. Why is this important? Because in Islam after death one is questioned in the grave. If they answer correctly and have faith they will be shown their dwelling place in jannah if they answer incorrected and have no faith they will be shown their destination in hellfire. Then on day of ressurection they will be lifted up out of their graves and then they will be judged and sent to either heaven or Hell.



Through my experience and through discussion with other people there seems to be many incidences where one sees the dead in dreams and the dead reveal things that only that "dead" person would know. there are many examples of this just for an example



This girl was lucid dreaming and she saw her great grandmother whom she barely knew and remembered (because her great grandmother died when the girl was so young). Anyways the grandmother told the girl to tell her mother not to be sad and that she should remember a room that the girls mother loved so dearly and cherished and which made her happy(and the great grandmother described exactly the room where the Mother of the girl loved when she was younger). Upon waking the Girl called her mother and told her about the dream and the description of the room and her mother started crying.



The odd thing in this is that the girl never knew of this room and that it was dearly loved to her mother.

This is just a small example it might not be that important to others but its important to me. I know of many more examples where similar things have happen where people have gotten sort of teachings or suggestion from people who have passed on.



What does this have to do with me leaving islam? It has to do with what I quoted above. In islam this is Impossible for the kuffar, it is just maybe possible for a Muslim who dies, but not a kafir as a kafir would be punished in the grave until ressurection day.



This goes along with the belief and claims of people that there are different realms of existence (which science also concludes). This is something that interest me since im into mystical experiences and into meditation and out of body experiences. Many people have had out of body experiences (myself included, though only at beginning stages) where they go to other realms of existence. People may these are just dillusions or in "your mind" but this is hardly the case since people have described meeting actual beings in other dimensions and some even getting teachings from these beings. Such teachings that transformed their lives. This is something the Shamans work with a lot aswell.



The point being is these things can be experience by You and Me. One doesnt have to believe that these realms exist, they can actually experience them directly so that no faith is needed. This is what i believe. It is not just Black and white. Yes there is hellish realms, but it is not to me just a Heaven and just a hell. There is more than that. And just because somebody doesnt have the same dogma does not mean they are doomed to a hell.



I have much more to go over but it seems that this will just be too long of a statement. Even the things i already discussed can be elaborated upon but we have no time.

arthra

Well thanks for posting Spiritual Seeker..

While Baha'is accept Prophet Muhammad as a Manifestation of God, we do not support all the traditions about Him.. You can see the Baha'i view in a book called Some Answered Questions which summarized talks given by Abdul-Baha in response to a variety of questions.. Here's the section that I thought might interest you:

Bah' Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 18-24

I was going to comment that we are not sure of the ages of people who lived at the time of Prophet Mohammed.. The reason for this is that people did not use a calendar like we have today.. and the Muslim Calendar as you know began on the Hegira so events that occurred before that can only be estimated.. Were not really sure when Prophet Muhammad Himself was born ...we can only estimate. I've noticed in my study that there can be a variation of four to seven years depending on whose accounts you read for the age of persons around that time.

The second thing as you noted above is that the Hadiths were mostly collected a good deal of time after the events they were supposed to narrate during the Umayyad Caliphate and they were selected from as you probably know a good many traditions...

My point is that we cannot be sure then of the age of Aisha when she was married to the Prophet..

Baha'u'llah has mostly abrogated many laws and practices of the Islamic dispensation and instituted to ordinances for the Baha'i era... The book we call the Most Holy Book or Kitab-i-Aqdas was revealed by Baha'u'llah around the year 1870 while He was a prisoner in Akka. You are welcome to peruse the Kitab-i-Aqdas to see what laws Baha'u'llah abrogated:

Bah' Reference Library - The Kitb-i-Aqdas

It is also available in the original Arabic.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your investigations and study and should you have any questions you'd like to ask about Baha'i Faith we will humbly offer our assistance as God permits..

- Art

SpiritualSeeker

Thank you art for the response. I believe your are right. I am of the opinion that many of the ahadiths aswell generated through time are fabrications even though muslim authorities will say one chain of narration is "authentic". I dont buy it anymore. I just have to learn not to blame Muhammad for these errors.

bwb

Ayesha's age when she married Muhammad is disputed and there are contradictory hadiths on the subject.
Here are a few links to web pages on this subject:

Aisha's age at marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Thus, Aisha - if she got married in 1 AH or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage."

Studying Islam | Articles
"Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years old at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age."

Age of Aisha (ra) at time of marriage
"So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage..."

What was <i>Ayesha's</i> (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage to the Prophet (pbuh)?
"Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage."

There are other dates, and ages of people, in Islamic history which are also disputed, see:
Disputed issues in early Islamic history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(For example Muhammad may have married Khadijah when she was 40 years old or when she was 25 years old, according to different contradictory hadiths.)

***
Some more web links saying that Ayesha may have been 18-21 years old at the time of her marriage to Muhammad:

Did Prophet Muhammad rape a nine-year old girl called Aisha? | Facebook

"Other calculations based on historical events place Aisha as old as 20 when she was became a bride. Ibn Hisham, the historian, reports that Aisha accepted Islam quite some time before Umar (the second caliph). This means she must have been at least a young girl in the year 610. Assuming she was five years old when Abu Bakr and his family converted to islam, the information puts the age of Aisha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad was consummated in 624AD.
Furthermore, most Islamic historians agree that Asma, the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than her. It is also reported that Asma died in 683AD at the ripe age of 100. If this is true, then Asma would have been 31 years old at the time of Aisha's wedding with Muhammad in 624 and the bride would have been 21.
Of course, these facts do not suit either the Islam-haters or the Mullahs who sanction child marriage."

Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?
"Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Ayesha’s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20."

Hazrat Aishah Siddiqah's Age at Her Marriage [Proves that: The Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Married Hazrat Aishah When She was 19 Years of Age and not When She Was 9.]listfooterAhmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at-e-Islam Lahore (Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for t
"Accordingly, her birth falls about four or five years before the Call, and her age at the time of the consummation of marriage in 2 A.H. will work out to 19-20 years."

What Was The Age of Ummul Mo'mineen Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) When She Married To Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
"Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage. "

Hadith Inconsisties Exposed: Ayesha a Six-Year-Old-Bride?
"Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age."

What was Ayesha's Age?
"Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage."

What Was Ayesha's Age? | Institute of Islamic Information and Education
"Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage."

Hazrat Ayesha's Age at the Time of Her Marriage
"Clearly, if Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of Hijrah, Ayesha was 17 at the time of Hijrah and 19 at the time of consummation of her marriage with Muhammad....
Assuming she was barely 6 or 7 at that time this information puts the age of Ayesha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad."

THE ACTUAL AGE OF AISHA r.a WHEN SHE MARRIED RASOOL ALLAH PBUH | Facebook
"Hence, she was married when she was 19 years old, i.e., 2 years after Hijrah."



************************************************** ***************************

An article about the problem of child brides, from the Baha'i International Community web site:
Child Brides the Focus of UN Dialogue Baha'i International Community -- United Nations Office

bwb

"From the pen of Bahá'u'lláh Himself has come the following statement on the subject of the treatment of women:

"The friends of God must be adorned with the ornament of justice, equality, kindness and love. As they do not allow themselves to be the object of cruelty and transgression, in like manner they should not allow such tyranny to visit the handmaidens of God. He, verily, speaketh the truth and commandeth that which benefiteth His servants and handmaidens. He is the Protector of all in this world and the next."

No Bahá'í husband should ever beat his wife, or subject her to any form of cruel treatment; to do so would be an unacceptable abuse of the marriage relationship and contrary to the Teachings of Bahá'u'lláh."

(The Universal House of Justice, 1993 Jan 24, Violence Against Women, Sexual Abuse)

"It is also evident from Bahá'í teachings that no husband should subject his wife to abuse of any kind, and that such a reprehensible action is the antithesis of the relationship of mutual respect and equality enjoined by the Bahá'í writings -- a relationship governed by the principles of consultation and devoid of the use of force to compel obedience to one's will."

(Universal House of Justice, 22 July 1987)
(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 458)

bwb

Baha'is believe that Muhammad was a man of extreme compassion and tenderheartedness, so much so that His enemies accused him of being womanly. Those qualities were also reflected in Muhammad's attitude towards the treatment of women, according to Muhammad Asad, the author of one of the best translations-with-commentary of the Qur'an in English.

"Although the noble conduct of the Prophets and Holy Ones of God is widely known, and it is indeed, until the coming of the Hour, in every aspect of life an excellent pattern for all mankind to follow, nevertheless some have remained neglectful of and separated from these qualities of extraordinary sympathy and loving-kindness, and have been prevented from attaining to the inner significances of the Holy Books."
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 53)


The Message of The Quran translated and explained by Muhammad Asad : Arthur's Classic Novels

"45 It is evident from many authentic Traditions that the Prophet himself intensely detested
the idea of beating one's wife, and said on more than one occasion, "Could any of you beat his
wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Bukhari and Muslim).
According to another Tradition, he forbade the beating of any woman with the words, "Never
beat God's handmaidens" (Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ibn Hibban and
Hakim, on the authority of Iyas ibn 'Abd Allah; Ibn Hibban, on the authority of 'Abd Allah
ibn 'Abbas; and Bayhaqi, on the authority of Umm Kulthum). When the above Qur'an-verse
authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have
said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing - and what God has willed must
be best" (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of
the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that beating should be resorted to only
if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should
be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this
effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these
Traditions, all the authorities stress that this "beating", if resorted to at all, should
be more or less symbolic - "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the
views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and
some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just
barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the
Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem."