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06-30-2009, 05:56 PM
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| Junior Member  Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 15 From: Los Angeles | men & women
Hello all. I'm a fairly new (and young) believer and this is my first post on this site. If anyone knows of a more active Baha'i forum, please let me know. I'm having a difficult time grasping how the 'equality' of men and women really works. I hear they are "two wings" of one bird, yet it's hard to interpret this message off the few texts I've discovered. I see the woman with an advantage for spiritual growth/awareness. This being the peak of the peak of anything we can attain, I feel odd thinking that God may have given half of the world an advantage in reaching the goal he has created us all for. Quote:
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-A Lioness has superior strength than the Lion? I'm assuming when her cubs are nearby. For the last quotation, it seems the woman has a direct advantage on a major hit: Quote:
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-What superior soulful qualities does the man have that the woman does not? If you have actual quotes, please post. Last quote: Quote:
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06-30-2009, 11:49 PM
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| Senior Member  Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 768 From: California |
WTTL.. Welcome to the Forum! and good to read your post. I'm a little unsure about your questions..Partially I think because in the Faith on one hand we can have our own personal views of various Writings and on the other authoritative interpretations of various issues can only be made say by Abdul-Baha and the Guardian. The House of Justice has to defer to these interpretations and research various points before it responds also. But it sounds like you are exploring these areas which I think is excellent. At this point I would suggest some sites you might want to look at for further study. Women: Table of Contents There's also an excellent program I just learned about being offered by the Wilmette Institute on the subject of women in the Faith: The Wilmette Institute will be offering a rerun of a very exciting course starting on July 15. "Women in the Baha'i Faith" is a three-month on-line course that will examine the role of women in religion and society in general via a compilation of Baha'i writings and essays by renowned non-Baha'i writers. Much of the course will focus on specific Baha'i women and their contributions to the Faith, as members of the holy family, heroines, administrators, teachers, and servants of humanity. The course will be an excellent opportunity to review the role of women as understood by the Baha'i Faith. Tuition: $150 for individuals; $120 for senior citizens (65 and older), university students (full time), pioneers (international and home front). Financial aid, in the form of partial scholarships, is available to individuals. $300 for groups (2-12 members). Course registration closes two weeks after the course begins. THE WILMETTE INSTITUTE: AN ON-LINE LEARNING CENTER "Engaging a broad and diverse community of learners in an in-depth study of the Baha'i Faith" Home info@wilmetteinstitute.org 877-wilmette (877-945-6388) (toll free) You may also enjoy Planet Baha'i at Delphi Forums for topically oriented discussions. - Art |
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07-01-2009, 09:04 AM
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This is certainly an interesting question. My understanding is this: That men and women have equal value but are different. I think that the "two wings of one bird" analogy is refering to the fact that a bird with one dominant wing would have difficulty flying but with two wings working in harmony, it will fly beautifully. Maybe as the faith comes out of a more male dominated world then there seems to be more emphasis on the strengths of women to make points to the audience. It still seems quite male dominated in many ways! Did you know that only men can serve on the Universal House of Justice? Women serve in equal measure in all other areas of the Faith as far as I know. Entrusting men with that task must show confidence in their spiritual capacity! |
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07-01-2009, 11:13 AM
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| Junior Member Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 15 From: Los Angeles |
Thanks for the replies. Men working in the UHJ doesn't mean much for me. I don't focus on being a man or a woman, I'm just trying to see the spiritual aspect of things. The whole wings of one bird sounds good, but I haven't found how the two wings can be naturally even. Sure the man has some advantages in this life on earth, but they'd be easily overshadowed by superior spiritual qualities (like the ones in the quotes naturally given to woman) - again making the two wings uneven. To breakdown: Off the limited but powerful pieces I've read, I basically feel that woman has an unfair advantage for spiritual growth and awareness. This being the key to our existence, it makes very little sense. If the woman has these advantages, her wing is already getting heavier. We have been told two evenly dense wings is the best solution, I'll assume we were all naturally built like this. So, what densities does man naturally have that outweighs a womans? To reach equilibrium, there has to be some. Last edited by WTTL; 07-01-2009 at 11:17 AM. |
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07-02-2009, 03:57 PM
| #6 |
| Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 768 From: California |
I'm sure in the process of time the relationships between men and women will change and have already morphed from what they were say in the nineteen fifties.. What the future holds is any one guess. In the Faith it seems that the direction is to uplift women in terms of education and empower them to partcipate more in society in order to make up for the past ages where women were generally confined to say child bearing roles and homemaking. examples: If there has to be a choice for say economic reasons say between educating a son or a daughter the choicce will fall to the daughter as they are the first educators of the children.. and when there is a tie vote say in an election for say officers on the Assembly and a woman is being considered the position will go to the woman. - Art  |
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07-03-2009, 01:49 PM
| #7 |
| Junior Member Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 15 From: Los Angeles |
Again, I'm only looking to distinguish between natural qualities given to man and woman. I have given you what is said about woman, and am looking for what it says about man. Because if these positives have been said about woman, there are hidden positives about man. My question does not deal with their roles in the world or their histories. |
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07-03-2009, 03:15 PM
| #8 |
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I enjoy using Ocean to look up things in the Bahá'í writings. One problem of looking up things about Men and Women is a language issue. When "woman" or "women" are used, they refer to females. When "man" or "men" is used this often refers to people in general and only sometimes reffers to males. I don't know if this is the same for the writings in their original Persian or Arabic - Does anyone reading this know?
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07-12-2009, 03:27 PM
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| Junior Member Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 15 From: Los Angeles | Quote:
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08-01-2009, 10:49 PM
| #10 |
| The Evil Visir  Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 131 From: Chapel Hill | Male and Female
Interesting conversation... I think that there are more than one way to take the meaning of 'male' and 'female,' or 'man' and 'woman.' As with any word or thing, you can take its meaning to be particular or you can understand it essentially. A particular understanding of chair may mean the on in the room next to you, the essential one is going to be something that describes all things that you would call a chair: something you sit on, or whatever other use or meaning that applies to all chairs. In the same way, you could understand the meaning of 'female.' It could mean the actual physical state of being a female as different from being a male. Or, it could mean something else. Of course, none of us know exactly what Baha'u'llah or 'Abdu'l-Baha meant, but I would hypothesize that 'female' in some cases could have to do with spiritual qualities that are not necessarily restricted to the physical state of being a woman. In fact, you could describe things that are not people at all as having feminine qualities, some languages have this built into their grammar. If we do that, then the whole notion of equality changes. Then maybe it is not so much about the female sex being better than the male sex, but perhaps it could mean that there are spiritual qualities in all of us that are described as 'female' or 'male.' This could solve the problem in two ways. In one sense we could say that men and woman are equal spiritually, and it would be true because we all have feminine and masculine spiritual qualities. Yet in another sense we could speak of the female as being different or greater in some sense, and that would also be true in respect to the spiritual qualities themselves - but it does not mean that men do not have access to the feminine spiritual qualities. How often in all the writings of the religions of the world do we see these kind of subtleties? Think of Jesus Christ claiming to be the son of God, and also claiming to be God. Any other ideas? |
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08-02-2009, 01:20 AM
| #11 |
| Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 768 From: California |
Jafar, I think you could also include the references in the Tablet of the Holy Mariner and other references to the Maid of Paradise as applying to an ideal feminine being or aspect of God.. Therein the Maids of glory and holiness will wait upon him in the daytime and in the night season, while the day-star of the unfading beauty of his Lord will at all times shed its radiance upon him and he will shine so brightly that no one shall bear to gaze at him. ~ Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 189 |
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08-03-2009, 10:13 AM
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| The Evil Visir Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 131 From: Chapel Hill |
Arthra, I think you are right. In some cases I think the Maiden refers to the soul of Baha'u'llah, but in others I think it may allude to the Word of God Itself. It's hard to tell, but one thing is clear to me is that it is very mysterious and subtle, and assuming one meaning is usually not the way to go. It's not the fun way, either. In another table, I believe it is called the Tablet of the Maiden or Tablet of the Virgin, Baha'u'llah is engaged in almost romantic moment with a Maiden. The Maiden has black locks and a white countenance. A friend and I were reading it and thought that perhaps it was an example of multi-layered metaphors: The Maiden represented the Word of God, or the Holy Spirit, and her hair represented the actual words, her fact the white paper on which it was written. She had points on her forehead and her breast that were also symbolic of something. |
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11-25-2009, 12:06 PM
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| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 41 From: California |
If we could add a meaning to represent a word we could say: Adam = the spirit breath of God Eve = the clay vessel, meaning the flesh Soul = the marriage of the two becoming one, "a living soul". Male and female: Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. In God's eyes, both male and female are Adams, living souls. In our eyes, we are pro-creators, one with another. There is no division between male and females with God. Blessings, AJ |
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11-27-2009, 09:24 PM
| #14 |
| Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 768 From: California | The story of Adam and Eve... Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings. We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions. ~~~~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 122) |
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11-28-2009, 01:21 PM
| #15 | ||
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 41 From: California | Quote:
The difference I have is this in explanation about your words,"those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful", is that one must be born of God to be privy to His mysteries. And that does not require one to be of any high intellect, purity or like a prophet status, but simply to be born of God. Quote:
Yes, Adam the heavenly spirit, Eve the body of flesh housing the heavenly spirit, together as one, living soul. The world is the testing ground of the flesh which can only be overcome by the spirit of Adam in us. There is one verse that gives us that clue: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Here we have both scenarios, the first: we're made subject to vanity and second; we are also subjected in hope. Therefore, there must be, if that verse is true, a new birth of the spirit soul of man for it to be subjected in hope. Otherwise, subjection in hope can not become effective until there is a quickening of our spirit by rebirth. Blessings, AJ | ||
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11-28-2009, 02:18 PM
| #16 |
| Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 768 From: California |
"look" those aren't my words but those of Abdul-Baha in the book "Some Answered Questions" .. If you any questions about Abdul-Baha or the Faith, let me know.. - Art |
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11-28-2009, 03:06 PM
| #17 | |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 41 From: California | Quote:
Blessings, AJ | |
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