Orthodox

He forbade pork to the jews so as to distinguish them from the gentiles who ate pork alot. At least in my opinion, it was not done on moral reasons unlike what you claim for wine. That being said it has not proved your point at all. Why did your god not forbid it in the time of Jesus, it would have had much more of an affect than saving it for 600 years later? Im just saying it makes no sense.

And no I haven't proved your point. THe Fact we have been having a dispute, disproves you. At least according to Abdul'Baha.

Livindesert

To me it makes perfect sense and also ties us into the path of other religions such as Buddhism(which dosen not allow alcholol or intoxicants in traditional forms) that lead to the uncreated.


As far as us having a dispute...It disproves both of us It shows we are humans failing to see the oneness of humanity.

arthra

More verses about alcohol/wine from the Bible. Some lesser known I'll warrant but some interesting ones..Yes some extoll wine..but here are some that don't.

Deuterocanonicals:


Wine is wicked, the king is wicked, women are wicked, all the
children of men are wicked, and such are all their wicked works;
and there is no truth in them; in their unrighteousness also
they shall perish.

(Deuterocanonical Apocrypha, Esdras 1:37)



24
But go into a field of flowers, where no house is builded,
and eat only the flowers of the field; taste no flesh, drink no
wine, but eat flowers only

25
And pray unto the Highest continually, then will I come and
talk with thee.

(Deuterocanonical Apocrypha, Esdras 2 (Ezra 4))

Now the above verses sound like a "vison quest" perhaps or for a course of meditation...communion.

2
Wine and women will make men of understanding to fall away:and he that cleaveth to harlots will become impudent.

(Deuterocanonical Apocrypha, Sirach)

5 Woe to you who devour the finest of the wheat,
And drink wine in large bowls,
And tread under foot the lowly with your might.

(Other Apocrypha, The Book of Enoch)

Old Testament:

9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
(King James Bible, Genesis)

Hmmmm...not so good...

19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

(King James Bible, Genesis)

Hmmm...not so good...





44:21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.

(King James Bible, Ezekiel)



2:6 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes; 2:7 That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name: 2:8 And they lay themselves down upon clothes laid to pledge by every altar, and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.

(King James Bible, Amos)

"Drinking the wine of the condemned in the house of their god" ...sounds powerful.


2:11 And I raised up of your sons for prophets, and of your young men for Nazarites. Is it not even thus, O ye children of Israel? saith the LORD.

2:12 But ye gave the Nazarites wine to drink; and commanded the prophets, saying, Prophesy not.

(King James Bible, Amos)

Giving Nazarites wine is not good...

2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people

(King James Bible, Habakkuk)

Not so good..


5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

(King James Bible, Isaiah)





New Testament:

4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

(King James Bible, 1 Peter)

3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity

(King James Bible, 1 Timothy)

There's some more..but overall what do you think does the good book condone strong drink? err fermented grapes? Some places permit moderation but over all wine seems to be a no..no.. in others, especially for Nazirites..

Orthodox

Yes excess of wine, the Nazerites arthra. Haven't we been over this? You want to insert your bahai message into a text which doesn't give a bahai message, at all...

Clex19

All I have to say is this: I love my liver!

Orthodox

As do I, but small amounts of have not hurt people. My Grandparents and parents have drunk alcahol their entire lives (within moderation) and they are fine.

Livindesert

I like the story where Paul tells Timothy to put a little wine in his water to make it safer to drink because Timothy as a frist generation Christian would not touch wine since he wass trying hard to be a good Christian.

Orthodox

What makes you say such a thing? I believe it was reccomended as a suggestion to solve an illness. its been a while since I read that verse. But are you insinuating Paul was wrong and bad? The Same Paul you would quote in a heart beat? The same Paul accepted by the apostles and who died in Rome by being beheaded?

But then again, i suppose had Jesus been a good prophet he wouldn't have transformed that water into nasty wine. Jesus was evil huh?

arthra

O believers! surely wine and games of chance, and statues and the
divining arrows, are an abomination of Satan's work! Avoid them, that ye may
prosper.

Only would Satan sow hatred and strife among you, by wine and games of
chance, and turn you aside from the remembrance of God, and from prayer: will
ye not, therefore abstain from them?

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 5 - The Table)



They will ask thee concerning wine and games of chance. Say: In both
is great sin, and advantage also, to men; but their sin is greater than their
advantage. They will ask thee also what they shall bestow in alms.

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 2 - The Cow)



One of the famous traditions people learnt from Imam Hasan al-Askari was,

“ The wine drinker is like an idolater.”

Ibn al Jawzi in his book “Tehrim al Khamr” mentioned this tradition from the Imam from the most reliable narrators of Hadith.

This is a great story about the tenth Imam:

When the Imam Ali Naqi (as) arrived. Al-Mutawakkil was at the prime of his drinking party. He ordered the Imam Ali Naqi (as) to sit next him. Then he offered a glass of wine to the Imam Ali Naqi (as). Imam Ali Naqi (as) refuse and said: "By Allah never has wine entered my body. Excuse me from it." Al-Mutawakkil accepted and said: "Then sing for us and entertain us with beautiful poems." Imam Ali Naqi (as) said: "I am not interested in poetry and I remember only but a little of the poems of other". Al-Mutawakkil said: "There is no excuse; you must read us some poetry."

Imam Ali Naqi (as) started: "They made rising mountains their residence. And they always had armed men guarding them. But none could save them from the attack of death. At the end they were descended from those hills and placed in the deeply dug graves with misery and humility. At this time a caller called: Where is all that glory, crowns, and luxury? Where is the face that knew comfort and hid itself behind silk curtains from the gazes of the commoner? The grave disgraced them at end. Those delicate faces are the ground for worms to crawl on. For a long time they sucked, swallowed, drank and ate of the earth. But today they are food for the earth and its pests."

Imam Ali Naqi's (as) voice resonated with a deep and effected melody onto the ears of the attendants, and destroyed the high of the wine. Al-Mutawakkil threw his glass away and started crying. Thus was Abbasid Caliph Al-Mutawakkil's party ruined, and the light of truth shown into a diseased heart even if it were for a fleeting moment.

whine of astonsihment

Hi all, I've been following this thread with great interest at the many perspectives.

There are some good reasons why wine and spirits have been around for thousands of years and some medicinal and other valid purposes for their existence today. In ancient times, safe and clean drinking water was not always easily available and there was often no other practical choice. I think Judaism forgives the consumption of pork and other forbidden foods under circumstances of potential death from starvation. I've been told that on some Caribbean islands, fresh water and soft drinks that must be shipped in are actually more expensive than their local brews and it's as much of an economic problem as it is a cultural norm.

It's also clear that some people can enjoy an occasional or daily glass of wine with their dinner without ever suffering any apparent ill-effects to their physical or social health, just as some people seem to be able to maintain a lifelong habit of enjoying no more than 1-2 cigarettes a day with a coffee or after a meal, without ever becoming addicted and feeling the need to smoke any more than that and no noticeable significant ill effects.

However, both these groups represent only a small percentage of society at large and the very real damage done by alcohol, drugs, and tobacco is so severe as to be almost immeasurable. Of this I have no doubt whatsoever after a few decades as a health care professional. Some people can manage to keep the most delicious boxes of chocolates available on their coffee table at all times for themselves and their guests, and yet restrict themselves to no more than one piece a day - regardless of how much they love chocolate, whether it's Christmas, Easter, Halloween, or how much stress and anxiety they're having that day - simply because that is the standard they have chosen and set for themselves - and living up to it is more important and meaningful to them than taking advantage of the many convenient and socially acceptable excuses available to 'lower their standard' even to a small degree, without any physical or social repercussions.

In other words, their free-will commitment to this personal standard, ideology, philosophy, self-discipline, call it what you will, actually transcends the power of lesser desires, peer and other social pressures, lack of negative consequences, effects or punishments. Some people can attend and thoroughly enjoy themselves at a celebration with an all-you-can buffet and yet, are self-disciplined enough to eat no more than they would ordinarily have for dinner because that is their chosen personal standard and they will often even accept a degree of negativity and ridicule from friends and family for resisting the social or group norm.

Baha'u'llah says "Observe My Commandments for love of My Beauty" and ultimately, regardless of how much or how little empirical evidence we can provide in support of the wisdom of His Laws, (and there is plenty of sound evidence and logical reasoning behind them in my opinion), the purest and most altruistic motive for obedience to His laws is simply our love for Him and our belief in His Cause. And interestingly it's the 'power of love' that also gives us the greatest weapon to overcome the most serious of addictions; creates the adrenaline rush necessary for the momentary superhuman strength to lift the car that ran over someone; allows us to transcend fear enough to sacrifice our own life if necessary to protect our child or defend our country.

Nothing other than the transcendent power of their immense love of God gave more than 20,000 martyrs of Babi and Bahai history since 1844 the courage and strength endure unimaginable torture and sacrifice their lives and the sweetest and most precious pleasures we know - that of the continued companionship of those we most love. I think the power of their love of God gave them the courage to die and the depth of their faith in the reality of His eternal existence and the immortality of their own souls was what must have enabled so many of them to do it quite willingly and even joyfully!

That's one of the 'real mysteries' for me and something I've not yet been able to fully wrap my brain around - I wonder if I ever really will.

arthra

However, both these groups represent only a small percentage of society at large and the very real damage done by alcohol, drugs, and tobacco is so severe as to be almost immeasurable. Of this I have no doubt whatsoever after a few decades as a health care professional.

Thanks for your post.. I was curious what was your profession? I was a Social Worker in my career for about 1965 to 1998 and I can certainly testify to the effects of drugs and alcohol on society around where I worked. Alcoholism is so pervasive that it appears among so many people today.. and no one is really immune from it as in one way or another it takes its toll.. Ruined lives of the abusers and those who they affect as well..

whine of astonsihment

I was in the 2nd graduating class of a brand new health care profession in 1972. When I first entered the 2-year post-secondary school program it was to become a 'Certified Inhalation Therapy Technician' or C.I.T.T. and by the time I graduated and wrote my national credentialing exams a few months later, I was a 'Registered Respiratory Technologist' or R.R.T.. The profession has grown and expanded steadily since then both in terms of significant technological developments and as well as gradually assuming medical responsibilities that were previously performed only by physicians. Today the R.R.T. stands for 'Registered Respiratory Therapist' and they serve as key members of a much broader of range health services.

About half of my professional life was as a clinician in critical care areas and the rest in management roles. I also worked in the US for about a decade but I've been back in Canada since the late 1980s. Because maintaining people on life-support systems was my primary focus and also coincided with the emergence of organ transplant programs, I've seen the legal definition of 'death' change for than once and became more and more interested in biomedical ethics ethics over time.

In my last job which was a number of years ago, I supervised a program which cared for individuals on long-term life support, most were similar to Christopher Reeves level of almost total disability after his accident. That turned out to be the most ethically challenging job of my entire life! Euthanasia is being quietly practiced in acute and chronic care facilities all over the world - not just Holland and not 'naming and claiming' that reality deeply concerns me after some of my experiences - as both a provider and a consumer!

Science and religion have never needed each other more than right now in my opinion and the need for honest and candid dialogue has never been greater. We really need to get on with developing enough 'reciprocal respect' to be able to figure out how where we're going to place our ethical boundaries in the coming decades because were going to be facing some very difficult decisions - and soon.

I was thinking that starting a thread about 'euthanasia' might be interesting and worthwhile but to be honest, I'm reluctant because of the amount time and energy I've seen going into engaging the same individual over essentially the same male bovine excrement - ad infinitum. It's been a little too much unproductive tail-chasing for me and I find myself getting really bored with it.

Livindesert

I read it as a illness caused by drinking bad water. I did not say Paul was bad for perscribine the use of wine in combating this in fact I agree with him alcohol can be used for medicinal purposes, I was just commenting on how looking at Timoty's behavior tells us a lot about the early Christians keeping wine drinking to a absolute minimum.

arthra

Whine of Astonishment:


Thanks for sharing some of your professional background..

I think you have identiified a very valid need when you wrote above:

Science and religion have never needed each other more than right now in my opinion and the need for honest and candid dialogue has never been greater. We really need to get on with developing enough 'reciprocal respect' to be able to figure out how where we're going to place our ethical boundaries in the coming decades because were going to be facing some very difficult decisions - and soon.

Orthodox

Were they? I don't know if one can come to this conclusion. Especially if we are to believe the tradition of the eucharist being wine the drink Jesus drank with his disciples.

Livindesert

I look at it as a nessecity of the time. When living in a area where the drinking water is bad alcohol can be used to make the water safer to drink. In fact if I recall the Orthdox church mixes water with the wine for the eucharist instead of full stength wine.

I have even heard of doctors perscribing wine to some people for certain conditions or benifits which would make it acceptabile to drink the daily perscribed amount.

I myself cannot drink alcohol due to some medications I am taking so for me the whole alcohol thing dose not matter.

Orthodox

So its okay to drink it for medical reasons? where in the Bahai scriptures are we told this?

Livindesert

"Nevertheless, intoxicating liquor, if prescribed by a physician for the patient and if its use is absolutely necessary, then it is permissible.-Abdu'l Baha from a Persian tablet"

Orthodox

Interesting, But it doesn't detract from my original points.

cire perdue

[QUOTE=ewlabonte;3846]I've been a baha'i since 2007 but my commitment has wavered and swung like a pendulum. When it swings away from my faith I go back to my previous belief which was atheism.

Oh, be gentle on yourself. When one enters the Faith it is with all the baggage we are carrying. No one apparently gets their baggage taken away for free. I have read tragic accounts of young Baha'is who had problems that they expected God to solve b/c they were Baha'is and then blaming the Faith when it did not happen. Being a Baha'i should hopefully give one the spiritual motivation to solve problems. If one needs counseling, seek it. Know that there will be spiritual sustenance for you. I think the priests and sexual abuse are because they expected to bargain with God to serve Him, but did not seek professional help and then ignorance and fear compounded the issues.

I am grateful you have expressed your doubts. It may take more than the Faith to help you progress, to learn what you need to do to grow. I advise don't project into the future thinking it would do no good to do such and such for example. One cannot see growth until it has come and gone, so walk blindly taking the steps away from where you are, and you will move forward.

LarryK32

In Eph 2:14-15 Jesus abolishes the requirement for circumcision as that divided the Jews and the Gentiles and he wanted to UNIFY them. The Jews were once required to. After Jesus abolished it they no longer were required to.

Mohammed abolished drinking alcohol. Not much of a difference.