Aesjar

I am pretty certain I believe in the same things as Baha'i and like everything that I've read, but is it wrong to drink alcohol for any reason, despite it's health benefits?

I've never been drunk and after all the medical studies showing moderate alcohol consumption helps prevent alzheimers as well as my personal experience that every teetotaler I've known got it... it kinda seems prudent to drink some.

Thanks.

asterias

Alcohol consumption was prohibited by Baha'u'llah for Baha'is, unless prescribed by a physician. One inherent problem with alcohol is that those who are prone to become addicted to it cannot know whether they will or won't unless they start drinking at which point it may well be too late; if they never drink, they don't run the risk of alcoholism which carries huge costs to individuals, families and society.

As for the health benefits, I have seen conflicting opinions about the quality of the studies that suggest health benefits for the moderate consumption of alcohol, such as not adequately controlling for other variables, etc. Also, it may very well be that many - if not almost all - of the purported benefits of alcohol consumption may have nothing to do with the alcohol itself in the drink, but rather with other ingredients such as antioxidants which can be obtained without drinking alcoholic beverages. Pomegranate juice, for example, has more antioxidants than red wine. It is quite possible that science will uncover further ways to get the same - or better - benefits without the risks that alcohol carries for individuals and for society.

arthra

Hi there Aesjar!

Well you're certainly free to consume all the alcohol you wish.. but should you decide to become a Baha'i alcohol consumption is against our laws..

My profession was Social Work so in my view I've seen a lot of abuse of alcohol socially and the affects of the abuse are rather staggering where I live.. Too many people abuse it in my view and would be better off without it.

See:

UPDATING ESTIMATES OF THE ECONOMIC COSTS OF ALCOHOL ABUSE - 2000

The primary reason Baha'is abstain from consuming alcohol though is because it's our law given by Baha'u'llah in the Aqdas..

You can read a compilation from the Writings on the subject:

Compilation: Prohibition on Drinking Alcohol

:wink

ewlabonte

I've been a baha'i since 2007 but my commitment has wavered and swung like a pendulum. When it swings away from my faith I go back to my previous belief which was atheism. When that happens the first thing I do is go out and buy a six pack of beer. That usually starts a downward cycle, not so much of drunkenness but of aimlessness and depression. I've discovered that I'm very good at providing myself with reasons to drink. Even though my consumption is not to the point of alcoholism, it is self destructive in other ways. When I swing back to the faith the whole process of giving up drinking, saying my daily prayers, and following the laws gives me strength and a feeling of purpose.

My suggestion is that if you're looking for a drink that leads to good health, drink coffee. All the recent studies have pointed to it's health benefits. Health Benefits of Coffee - WebMD .
If you don't like the effects of caffeine, decaffeinated coffee provides the same benefits.

Pollwr

And there I was thinking that coffee was my unhealthy pleasure! I've never got why people drink alcohol. It smells nasty and can make you throw up. Any food that does that tends to be avoided.

ewlabonte

There's nothing like the first cup of coffee in the morning. The first sip is followed by "Ahhhhhh, Coffeeeee". Alcohol is a form of self medication for me. I suffer from depression and one element of depression is anhedonia, the inability to enjoy things that you usually find enjoyable. Alcohol allows me to enjoy, but it's followed by an increase in the depression the next day. So it's sort of a viscious circle.

arthra

Yes.. Unfortunately far too many of us.. family members ..and sometimes Baha'is get caught up in that viscious circle.. and it's very tragic in the toll it takes.. DUIs..broken lives .. sometimes it takes intervention or AA or a real tragedy to shake people up.. It's a real struggle!

O Lord! Give to the people of Baha' cleanliness and holiness in all conditions, purify and free them from all defilement, deliver them from the use of all that is execrated, liberate them from the chains of habits, so that they may be pure and free, clean and spotless, that they may be worthy servants of the Sacred Threshold and may deserve to enter into relation with God.

Deliver them from alcohol and tobacco, and save them from opium, the purveyor of madness! Make them companions of the holy breezes, in order that they may know the pleasures of the wine of the love of God, and that they may attain to the joy and the happiness of attraction to the Kingdom of ABHA!

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 584

Pollwr

I think I grew up around people who used alcohol. No-one officially alcoholic but some serious bingers. I just watched how it worked for them and maybe that was enough of a perspective for me not to want to drink. I never saw anyone benefit from it. And I don't like the smell!

Depression is horrible to live with. This is not a Bahá'í site but I found it insightful with regard to depression. Clinical Depression Learning Path
Please note, I am just a regular person with an interest, and don't claim to be any sort of health professional. I found things there that have helped me lead a much happier life, paired with some prayer and meditation.

Mirage

Having read all the responses in this thread, I am curious as to why use of alcohol is forbidden?

[Note: I'm not endorsing nor opposing the restriction.]

ewlabonte

Here's a link to the Universal House of Justice's statement on it:

Prohibition of Alcohol

Mirage

Um.... yeah, I read the article, but it was a bit garbled. It spoke of a holy text as saying that alcohol is bad.

However, if Baha'i is truly the almalgamation of many different faiths, then no one holy text is sufficient to answer for all those of multiple faiths. Or else the entire premise of Baha'i is invalid.

ewlabonte

The Baha'i faith is not an "amalgam". It's a revealed religion. It states clearly that all revealed religions are the same religion revealed at different times and places. Some of the laws given are universal, others are relative to the specific time and place where the revelation occurs. The teaching about alcohol is one of the latter. Baha'u'llah stated in the Kitab'i'Aqdas that alcohol consumption is prohibited. His teaching comes directly from God. That's why Baha'is can't drink. If you don't believe that Baha'u'llah was a manifistation of God then you're not a Baha'i and you're not bound by Baha'i laws so following them is not necessary.

If you're looking for the reasoning behind the prohibition against drinking, well that's pretty obvious. It kills thousands of people every year from drunk driving, liver damage, etc. It is a primary source behind much domestic violence. There is no upside.

Livindesert

It dose work out pretty well as a solvent :lol

whine of astonsihment

GOD LOVE YOU LIVIN!!!:lol
You made me laugh out loud - you precious soul!
lol:lol

Orthodox

Drinking Acahol is not immoral, but abusing it sure is.

dwlehning

When I was studying the Baha'i Faith many years back (early 80s), I noticed the prohibition on drinking alcohol. For me, it was another natural fit since I have never taken up drinking alcohol; I tried it a couple of times in my youth and found I just did not like alcoholic beverages, so fortunately, never took up drinking. I pretty much stick with water, tea and fruit juices. Anyway, I think that not drinking is a better option and has great wisdom. I have seen the damage from abuse of the stuff too since my father drank heavily from time to time. It did not make him violent, fortunately, but it sure messed up his reasoning.

David

whine of astonsihment

The answer to 'WHY?' is because it affects the 'clarity of the mind' and any substance that does this is strictly prohibited unless prescribed by a physician.
For example, smoking is fervently discouraged in Abdul-Baha's Tablet of Cleanliness (or is it the Tablet of Purity? HELP arthra!), but it's not 'prohibited' in the laws because it doesn't affect the clarity of one's reason or thinking. The mind or intellect is understood to be the most important and strongest manifestation of the soul on our physical body.

You can lose a leg or a lung from cancer but you are still the same personality/character your loved ones knew when you were 'whole'. If you have a lobotomy, are stricken with Alzheimer's, schizophrenia, etc. you are no longer able to have the same relationship with the world around you that you had before.

whine of astonsihment

The alcohol prohibition is about 'clarity of mind/thinking' . Read the Statement on Alcohol posted earlier on this thread by ewlabonte .

Orthodox

I'm merely speaking of the morality. It is not morally wrong to drink Alchahol.

LarryK32

I'm glad alcohol is prohibited. I never planned on taking up drinking. I'm quarter Native American so there is a greater chance of me becoming an alcoholic. I used to live on a reservation and alcoholism was a problem there.

BruceDLimber

In your opinion.

A few million of us disagree about the morality of drinking alcohol!


Bruce

Orthodox

And a few billion more agree with me. To drink alcahol is not immoral for many reasons, the first being of course is that Jesus turned water into wine. Now if God being the moral definer of the universe at one point says its okay to drink but then says it isn't don't we believe a God who changes on a whim? Should not the morality of God's law be eternally present? Therefore because Jesus turned water into wine and was likely to have taken wine on the last supper, I feel you have no justification for saying wine is evil other than God changed his mind arbitrarily.

Livindesert

That was o.k. for the Jewish and Christian dispensations but God in his wisdom has told mankind to stop using alcohol since the Islamic dispensation. Remember God dose not change his mind but is guiding humanity sometimes guiding us to the left and sometimes the right.

Orthodox

We're not talking about whether God allows it or not, but whether it is immoral to drink wine. God transformed the water into wine and it is a central part of the eucharistic service of the church. How are we to follow the command of Christ and drink his body in rememberance to him without wine? I guess God does not think about these things.

But either God is a consistent God and allows wine for all generations or he arbirtraily changes the rules each generation. For there was no reason to forbid wine at the time of Muhammad and not at the time of Jesus.

LarryK32

The majority is not always right. Don't jump on the bandwagon just because.

whine of astonsihment

As pointed out previously, it's not an 'amalgamation' but I don't think it can really be understood or evaluated very well by over-scrutinizing tiny pieces of it either.

It's important to take a big enough step back to be able to see it from a more holistic perspective to see how the 'interrelationship' of the dozen or so basic spiritual principles work together to achieve the ultimate curative goal of peace, justice and unity.

I don't think just one or even a few of them will get us that far, though the benefits of full realization of any one the individual principles would undoubtedly bring a huge amount of mercifully restorative pain relief.

Orthodox

Huh, since when was that my main argument? I could have sworn I gave a philosophical outlook as to why alcahol is not evil due to God at one point in time turning water into wine. Please read that part.

And its interesting about how no one book is enough to answer all mankinds questions. Well if it was a very long book yeah it could be, but the bible and the books of the church aren't just one book, many hundreds of books, that is teh NT, OT, Fathers and canons. All of these I feel give us the right answers.

arthra

I don't think I know of any Baha'is going on Orthodox Forums and telling them they should abstain from alcohol..

I know many years ago when I was a Christian I was asked to drink the reserve sacrament..that's consecrated wine my friend and the priest asked me to drink all of it..so I did.. and there weren't many people at that early morning service either so there was plenty of wine to drink .. a veritable tankard..

The thing was though I was also suppposed to teach a sunday school class afterwards.. Well it was a biiig mistake I can tell you!

by itself though alcohol is a substance and it makes a pretty good disinfectant and cleaner. It could be a fuel to use.. Doctors can prescribe it as medicine.

But all I know is alcohol consumption has caused a lot of misery ...

Orthodox

The point is God institutes the Eucharist which has alcahol and then tells us we are immoral for drinking wine? Im sorry, but I see no consistency for this God of yours. Why not forbid alcohol from the time of Moses (for everyone not just a certain group).

and no, it isn't alcahol consumption it is abuse of that substance. My parents drink alcahol, don't seem them getting wasted every sunday and murdering babies.

LarryK32

We've told you this time and timd again. Progressive revelation. Tell me Kyle, are you able to learn? You say that's why you're here, but you ask the same question over and over again.

arthra

Orthodox wrote:

"...and no, it isn't alcahol consumption it is abuse of that substance. My parents drink alcahol, don't seem them getting wasted every sunday and murdering babies."

Yeh I've heard that one before it's not firearms that cause problems it's misuse of them..Trouble is people misuse them..

But people are getting wasted every night..and consumption of alcohol has been shpown to be more destructive than any street drugs..

Alcohol Statistics: The health care costs of alcohol

Do you think God in His mercy is going to allow that situation to continue?

Orthodox

Its amazing that people insist on calling me that when i have made my requests clear. But progressive revelation does not answer the question. For what reason does one get rid of Alcahol now, but not at the time of Moses or Jesus for all people?

And yes arthra, is isn't guns that kill people. It is people that kill people. If you put a gun on the floor and tell it to kill someone it won't. Likewise it is abuse of alcahol, I think God gives us free choice on the matter. If you want to abuse it, fine, but destroy yourself and others and take responsibility.

arthra

Well you see Orthodox..

Baha'u'llah revealed for us that alcohol was forbidden so as Baha'is we don't drink..

It's a standard in our religion. It helps those who may have problems with alcohol know there's a standard to live by..

He (Abdul-Baha) states that the reason for
prohibiting the use of alcoholic drinks is because "alcohol
leadeth the mind astray and causeth the weakening of the body".
Shoghi Effendi, in letters written on his behalf, states
that this prohibition includes not only the consumption of
wine but of "everything that deranges the mind", and he
clarifies that the use of alcohol is permitted only when it
constitutes part of a medical treatment which is implemented
"under the advice of a competent and conscientious
physician, who may have to prescribe it for the cure of some
special ailment".

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 227)



You're not governed by Baha'i law so if you please you can drink

I think abstention from alcohol though answers the needs of the time it's called for.. with the horrific abuse of alcohol as a drug today I think it's a good thing that it is forbidden in this dispensation.

arthra

I'm sure many are already aware of this but there is the Bible itself what is called the Nazirite vow which involved abstaining from fermented beverages:

The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, 3 he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. 4 As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.

Numbers 6:1

and consider John the Baptist according to the Gospel of Luke:

He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth

- Luke 1:15

So there is evidence of abstention from fermented drink in the Bible..

Orthodox

If alcahol is forbidden because it could lead minds astray it should have been forbidden with the example of Noah. He got drunk and his son saw him naked. This should have been mroe than enough reason for God to declare wine forbidden yet he didn't? Why? This is what I mean when I say there is no difference at any point in time, we don't see in history people getting excessively drunk any more than they did in the past so why ban it now at the time of Muhammad it just seems weird and Arbitrary. Not to mention confusing when he tells us we are to take part in his blood (eucharist). And Arthra, you make think its good its forbidden today, but what about the past? Would not it have been better from Noah and onwards to forbid it?

That being said, the Nazerite vow was for certain people not everyone. and I believe it involved dedication to the lord and abstaining from Worldy things, this does not make wine immoral, unless one breaks ones vow with God and fails to keep what he has promised. And the passage in Luke simply describes John the baptist, not a moral command for all humanity, if it were Jesus wouldn't have transformed water into wine.

Livindesert

It is a called progressive revelation, what is not harmful for mankind in one dispensation can be bad for mankind in the future. Go in his wisdom therefore charts the path for mankind to follow through his manefestations.

Orthodox

So people didn't get drunk at the time of Jesus? I guess Alexander was justified then in getting drunk and burning down one of the lord's houses he conquered. Once again livin, your not seeing the point, Alcahol was abused then just as much as it is now. in fact its a bit silly your God didn't ban it then, think about it, he must have known there would be 2 billion or so people who subscribe to a belief in Jesus. He could have made half the world not drink alcohol!

Your explanation of "progressive revelation" fails in the light that alcahol did the same thing to people it does now in ancient times. Your God made a completely arbitrary decision, you know like sending Jesus who accomplished nothing (according to you).

Livindesert

[QUOTE=Orthodox;5148] He could have made half the world not drink alcohol! [\QUOTE]


He could have but that was not his plan for man at that moment. God banned pork in the Jewish and Islamic dispensations but then allowed it for Christian and Baha'i dispensations. Same thing. The only thing that makes sense about Christians not eating pork is if progressive revelation is the answer.

Orthodox

[QUOTE=Livindesert;5155]Um actually he forbade pork for the jews. Not humanity... I think you seem to make that connection. The gentiles such as myself have never been commanded not eat Pork. So it is not progressive revelation, but actually knowing what the religion teaches.

Livindesert

You just admited that God forbade it to part of humanity and not to another. It is the same way with alcohol. You just proved my point.