LarryK32

Orthodox,
I don't think any of us want to argue with you. If you don't believe it, don't. If you want to, read more into it before as it is a big decision. We can't convince you since we are forbidden to proselytize and you seem to just want to argue and not think for yourself. Please cease this arguing as it will get us nowhere as you obviously don't want to progress.

Orthodox

Larry its amazing that you say I don't think for myself. Define "thinking" for myself. DOes it forbid agreeing with others? You obviously agree with the collective bahai on this forum so think for yourself and stop going with the group. That being said, larry I will never cease questioning and trying to find truth.

LarryK32

You have said that your clergy does not accept Baha'u'llah which is why you don't. I grew up in the Bible Belt my entire life. I grew up in a Christian environment. I converted to the Baha'i Faith as it seems to be right for me. We aren't going to try to convert you.

Orthodox

I have said the entire church does not accept bahai, that means laity, Deacons, Priests and bishops. All have say within the church not just the clergy. That being said. Larry I humbly ask you stop asking what my intent is here. You've asked it like 5 times or something to that extent? Enough is enough, You don't want to deal with what I ask. Thats fine you don't have to. But at least engage with me the right way instead of trying to uncover my motive or agenda which I have made clear many times. I seek truth, if bahai is truth I want to be bahai, but in order that to come to pass the hard questions need to be answered. Thus I consider this a great place to start.

LarryK32

We are both right. Both of our faiths contain some truth.

And I NEVER said to stop asking questions. I said to stop arguing. There you go, twisting my words again.

Orthodox

See we cannot be both right at all. We might share some similar truths but these are minor in the grand scheme of world religions.

Who is right? THe Christian when he says JEsus is God? Or the Muslim who says Christ is not God? Both cannot be right, one has to be wrong. Not everyone can be right in this world unless one believes in a subjective reality. Which I don't think anyone can justify.

Orthodox

Also you say I argue. I merely criticise and discuss these things. Arguing is when two people yell at each other and get anger. Which I hope none of us are.

pheonixduprese

Argue: Give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view.

According to Google.

Orthodox

Well luckily Im not attempting to persuade. Im looking for bahai to answer the theological issues and discuss them and come to a conclusion. So by that definition we are not arguing. Unless you are trying to enforce your doctrine on me.

Clex19

@phoenixduprese Im not able to go to many Bahá'í meetings in my area either. However, lately I've been using Skype to have study circles with a Bahá'í friend who lives hundreds of miles away from me. So far that's been working out pretty well for me. Maybe you can try something similar?

Clex19

@Orthodox For Bahá'ís, the purpose in teaching the Faith is not to convert others or enforce any doctrines. Teaching the Bahá'í Faith can be likened to planting a flower, to an extent. The job of Bahá'ís is to plant the seed. The rest is up to God. That seed may grow into a beautiful flower, it may only grow a little, or it may not grow at all. At any rate, please don't feel like we're trying to force you to believe anything. We're trying to answer your questions the best we can. But the best resource there is in answering your questions is the Bahá'í Writings, although they might not be addressed directly.

Clex19

@phoenixduprese Also, I personally know several Bahá'ís in Council Bluffs that would be happy to help you with getting to meetings. If you want, I can send you their Facebook profiles in a message so you can contact them.

Orthodox

I have read the bahai writings not all of them and my opinions are that of confusion as to how anyone can take them seriously. But once again I feel as if bahai is like one of the old mystery cults in which you have to be initiated before you get the real answers. Or perhaps you just get no answers at all.

pheonixduprese

I live in des moines. That's quite a travel difference.

Clex19

Well, are you able to do a video chat with Skype? I don't know how busy your schedule is, but I'm sure something can be worked out. As long as your parents are okay with it. Family unity is very important, as well as obeying your parents.

pheonixduprese

Gah, I don't know. Maybe.

Yeshua

Hi Pheonix :wub

I must say you are very intelligent, mature and wise for your age. I am eighteen years old, so we are probably closer in age than others on this forum (I think). What I will say is that you are very young to be making such a crucial life decision, but this is not a bad thing, indeed it is actually (for me) most inspiring. To find such a young man endowed with a free-thinking, searching mind is quite remarkable. When you think that most kids your age only think about school, parties and friendship it is even more incredible! You remind me very much of myself. I was always the spiritual/religious one in my family and circle of friends. I first read the Bible when I was about ten. After that I went on to read the Dhammapada of Buddha, the Mathnawi of Rumi, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas, the Jain scriptures, the Jewish Talmud, the Zend Avesta of Zoroaster (the Gathas are wondrous!) and indeed much more besides, including the writings of the Bab, Baha'ullah and Shoghi Effendi. I can tell you from first-hand experience, that there is much to admire and love about the teachings of the Kitab-I-Aqdas. I recall the first time I read it (online). The beginning struck me for its sheer beauty and the poignancy of the poetry. However what really got me was Baha'ullah's description in the Book of Certitude of Christ's suffering and redemptive passion and the glory of his life:

Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified... We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him

Here is a fantastic reading of it:

The above actually deepened my Christian faith. Through the wondrous beauty of Baha'ullah's words I experienced Christ's passion on a very deep level and saw it, not only as redemptive and life-giving, since Jesus' passion is here identified as the motive force behind Christian civilization and all its successes, the unseen source of human advance. Christian Civilisation, in the Western World, led to the modern world and the flourishing of democracy, freedom and human rights directly because of the example of Jesus and Baha'ullah helped me realize this. On the one hand, this passage evokes something like the Eastern Orthodox image of Jesus as the Cosmic Christ, as Pantocrator, the Ruler of All (Pelikan:57-70). On the other, Baha'u'llah as a nineteenth-century thinker innovates in linking the redemption gained by the cross to ideas such as civilization, progress, and the arts and sciences. Christ not only saved individual souls, but engendered by his teachings and self-sacrifice an entire civilization.
I contemplated becoming Baha'i. I also contemplated Buddhism, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. However in the end I returned to Christianity but my faith is deeper, richer and far more profound than it was before thanks to all the spiritual guidance I received from Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster and Baha'ullah and for that I am deeply thankful.
I commend you for using the freewill God gave you and will pray that God leads you where he wants you too be. :wub

Bless you brother :wub And god bless all seekers! As Christ said, ' ‘Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!'

BruceDLimber

Fallacy!

Truth is relative and can change over time as God reveals more and changes certain laws, which Christ Himself demonstrated in the Sermon on the Mount!

And as I already pointed out, this is clearly one law that has changed over the Ages such that no, slavery is indeed immoral now!

(And you're hardly in a position to play devil's advocate on this since by your logic above "an eye for an eye" would still hold, too when we're both well aware that it no longer does!

Peace,

Bruce

BruceDLimber

On the contrary, as I've said already, literally MILLIONS of Christians have already become Baha'i, which is precisely why they're now known as "Baha'is!"

So (meaning no insult) your "entire church" only applies to those who have remained behind.

Just the facts.

Peace,

Bruce

BruceDLimber

Then sorry as I am to say it, you appear to have read them with considerable prejudice ("pre-judging") because otherwise their beauty and serious intent should be hugely obvious whether you actually agree with them or not!

On the contrary, the Baha'i Faith has no hierarchy and no secrets! Everything's out in the open, and it's thus literally "what you see is what you get!"

(The sole caveat is that we're imperfect individuals like others and therefore may not always reflect the truth and beauty of the Baha'i teachings as well as we should. But the integrity of our scriptures remains.)

Peace,

Bruce

pheonixduprese

Listen, Yeshua. You are a godsend.:wub Thank Him for sending such a tolerant person as you, and you're Christian, too. That is fantastic, an individual with such an open mind, and deepening your faith through other religions.

Lots of love through God,

Cole

Orthodox

When I say entire church, I say orthodox Christians. And if they left they are no longer christians but apostates. And Im sure literally millions of bahai have left and become Christians. In fact I know a few.

That being said, its amazing that you think I judged them before hand. I read the words of your prophet, were confused by them. Asked questions about them and didn't get good answers which satisfied me.

Clex19

@Orthodox What are your main questions about the Writings that confused you? Maybe we can better help you if we start fresh.

Orthodox

I'll open a thread about it some other time. I've got a rather large document of bahai sayings and scripture. Right now I want to focus on my history thread.

BruceDLimber

Perhaps if you spend more time explaining what you don't understand and less time issuing put-downs, you'll receive more helpful answers.

And please note that Christians who have become Baha'i remain very much Christian in that we all love and respect both Christ and the Bible! Indeed, no one can become a Baha'i without accepting both, which means we've led many folks from other backgrounds to this very love and recognition!

Peace,

Bruce

whine of astonsihment

You ask for a simplistic answer to a complex matter. It's a good way to get the kind of answer that's easy to reject. An effective method for your purposes perhaps but not very useful to determining what the truth and reality is. You like to use dichotomy and paradox when it suits you, as in what is an open mind and what in a closed one, and then demand simplistic yes or no answers to spiritual questions and searches that are much more complicated.

Is Orthodox Christianity right or wrong, 'as is' and in its initial (and current) totality? For you it seems to be unquestionably right (primarily due to its authentic 'historicity' and not much else) indicating that only the first or initial conclusions about Jesus' nature, God's nature and the nature of the Holy Spirit can be correct and all else is heresy.

Is the doctrine of Transubstantiation 'right' just because the Catholics and Orthodox say so regardless? While all other also intelligent, reasoning and sincere minds are 'wrong' if they say it's meant to be a 'symbolic ritualistic representation' of the key events of the Last Supper. All Catholic and Orthodox Christians are required to believe that only through magical and special powers and words of their priesthood, the bread and the wine of Holy Communion actually 'change substance' and become the actual and real 'body and blood of Jesus Christ' and that all this happens without any changes whatsoever in the taste, texture, color, or any other physical attribute of the bread and wine. And that this, along with confession, makes you 'pure and holy' like Jesus - until you go out and sin again and need to repeat the whole process. Hmmmmm ... nice work if you can get it ....

Why do you believe this Orthodox? I have definitely not believed this since about age 9 and I never went to confession even once in my life because in the holy trinity of my own mind, heart, and soul I 'innately knew' even then and only more so today, that you need confess, sincerely repent and ask forgiveness of your sins only to God and that no ordinary human being, priest or laity, has the power or right to absolve you of your sins. I did not find out until much later that Baha'u'llah also abolished confession with His revelation and why, but when I did finally learn about it decades later, I knew it was true from the way His words resonated in my mind, heart, and soul.

arthra

Based on a true story:

I used to know a couple incollege named Greg and Julienne.. Greg liked Julienne a lot ..she was "foxy" but a little older than Greg and it was rumored that Julienne had a pagan past.. but they both went to the same church .. but in different parts of the town.

Anyway Greg finally got up enough courage to invite Julienne over to his parents home for a Christmas party. Julienne was excited and anticpated this.. Greg said OK I'll pick you up in my old jollop and take you!

Well the date(s) finally arrived and Greg went to Julienne's house to pick her up but she was gone.. Greg took this to mean that maybe Julienne was busy and had other things to do and probably didn't care about him..so he walked away knowing he was right after all.

Christmas day came and Julienne waited for Greg a looong time at her door.. but Greg never showed.. She figured Greg had forgotten about her and so she put away her party dress and wrote in her diary:

Dear diary.. Greg never showed that (unmentioned) scoundrel..forget him. She knew she was "right".

Later on that semester Greg met an even foxier chick named Maya from central America.. She was so cute!

Ecumenism Awareness: The Calendar Controversy

whine of astonsihment

He allowed more than one wife then too. Is that OK with you? Here is something I received yesterday under the subject "Bible contrasts"

ENJOY!

In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:



Dear Dr. Laura:


Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.


I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.


1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,



James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia

(It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian

Yeshua

:wubBless you Cole :wub I am very happy for you. You seem to have found the faith that gives you the greatest inner peace and I hope and pray that you experience many more good things on your spiritual journey. As I said above there is so much to admire in the Baha'i religion, whether one believes that Baha'ullah is really a Manifestation of God or not, he was certainly a very intelligent, compassionate and revolutionary thinker and man. Not a bad example to emulate if I do say so myself :wink Have you ever read the Gospel of Thomas? It was my favourite of the 'extra-canonical' gospels. There is an interesting phrase in it which I think may be of interest to you. It is, like all the Thomas sayings, attributed to Jesus which puts it into a category of literature which scholars call the, 'Agrapha' of Jesus. Literally this means, 'that which was not written down' but of course the Agrapha are sayings which are written down just ones which are not in the Bible. So from a Christian or Baha'i perspective we can never know if Jesus really uttered anything attributed to him outwith the Bible, however it is intriguing nonetheless:

Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

It appears to me that you are going through the kind of spiritual 'epiphany' or experience which is discribed above. And it is my fervent wish that you do indeed, figuratively speaking, 'reign over all'.

Do you have facebook? You might be too young for that :dry IF not then I'd be happy to add you, it would be good to keep in touch

Love in Christ

Sean :wink

pheonixduprese

I am most definitely not too old to have a facebook, but my parents will not let me. . Thank you for the offer, though!

Also, I have not read the Gospel of Tom, but I want to. Can I find it on the internet?

Thank you very much,

Cole

Yeshua

Yes an excellent translation may be found here at the Nag Hammadi Library online: The Gospel of Thomas Collection -- Translations and Resources

However the best translation of the Coptic text is sadly only available in book form: The Gospel of Thomas Annotated and Explained by Stephen L Davies

Amazon.com: The Gospel of Thomas: Annotated & Explained (Skylight Illuminations,) (9781893361454): Stevan L. Davies, Andrew Harvey: Books

And as concerns facebook it isn't what its cracked up to be anyway :lol However if you ever do get one let me know and I'll add u. In the meantime I'll give u my email address (via pm), just in case you ever want to have a chat about something pertaining to your spiritual life. I'm fascinated to find someone so open to religion at your age, as most teenagers sadly do not share our appreciation of the spirit BTW I just love how u refer to it as the 'Gospel of Tom' like he's your best mate lol

Love in Christ :wub

Orthodox

Hah, magical powers in the eucharist? perhaps you don't bel;ieve God can do anything in this world. That being said I believe the real presence for the same reason the early church did, the desciples taught it and they came from Christ.

And no whine, you simply want to ignore the fact that early christianity and bahai contradict each other. If you knew what orthodox trinity was, you should be able to admit this.

pheonixduprese

I know a person named Tom, and he's... well, that's a long story about what he is in reference to me. But I imagine that if this Thomas person wrote a gospel, he must be a putty awesome person, therefore I think he deserves to be called "Tom." Make sense, sorta? :P

Orthodox

The gospel is claimed to be the word of St Thomas, the apostle to india. It however is a forgery and promotes a gnosticism that salvation is not gained from believing in on Christ and his miracle, but by understanding the words of the gospel. However it is a fruitless endevour because while some of the sayings can be put in a context found in the gospels alot cannot. And I reccomend reading the last line of the gospel of Thomas, it says that in order for a woman to be saved, she has be made a man. Im not making that up.

pheonixduprese

Uh, evidence of it being a forgery?

pheonixduprese

And yes, I did read the last part, and I do admit, that part is a little... off, but I haven't read the whole thing, so I don't have the context.

pheonixduprese

Wait, there's a note:

[Saying probably added to the original collection at a later date:]
114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Orthodox

There is no context to it. Thats the entire gospel, it lacks any and all context so as to judge what it means. Its a collection of sayings rarely if at all given a context, I believe that last one however is in responce to peter and Jesus is using Mary to represent what women are. Inferior.

Now I don't understand how they could have been added later, we have only a few documents of the gospel of thomas so this note however perplexes me as other translations I have read make no note of it whatsoever.

Now, the gospel of thomas was written in the second century. Thomas the apostle lived in the first century. Now how do we know it was written in the second century? First evidence is the lack of patristic quotes about it by early Christian figures, while little evidence this does offer some. Now, we also know it seems to borrow heavily from a compilation of the gospels or a harmonization written by an early theologian, this was about the second half of the second century. So yes the gospel of thomas is forgery for it was not written by the apostle. It brings us nothing of the historical jesus, only what the gnostics believed this text helps us out with.

pheonixduprese

Also, don't you agree that a mix of understanding the words of the gospel and believing in salvation through Christ are necessary? What is one without the other?

Orthodox

Belief is not enough, I can believe in richard dawkins but reject his work as philosophically bankrupt. You must accept Christ and everything that comes along with that. However the gospel of thomas doesn't want that, it wants you to accept the words, and interpret them in order to have eternal life. It is gnosticism at its finest, that knowledge will grant you salvation. It is a false teaching.