Yeshua

Hi all!

I have a question which I am wondering if you can help me with. Are Baha'is 'Quran Aloners'? By that I mean do you only accept the Quran as inspired or do you also accept the Hadiths? The reason I am asking is because it is well-known outwith Orthodox Sunni and Shia - by Non-Muslims and Quran Muslims - that the Hadiths are very much fabricated. Many of them where written two centuries after Muhammad was supposed to have lived and are filled with barbaric teachings and laws which often conflict with the Meccan Suras of the Quran, human reason and the morality of most modern religions (Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Baha'i Faith - all of which teach love and compassion). The Muhammad of the Hadiths, the cruel warlord, is surely at odds with the man who proclaimed, 'let there be no compulsion in religion'. Muhammad in the Hadiths ordered women to be stoned to death. No such teaching is contained in the Quran and Jesus himself, six hundred years prior - if I as a Christian and you my dear brothers as Baha'is accept him - had outlawed this foul practice of Jewish Law, thus 'abrogating it' with mercy. In modern day Iran, we can see the suffering this barbaric practice and others like it (child-brides, wife beating, offensive Jihad, religious intolerance, death penalty for apostasy, forced Hijab wearing, death penalty for homosexuals) have caused and they stem directly from these false Hadiths which are widely accepted by mainstream Muslims.

So, my question is, do Baha'is agree with the Quran Aloners or Mainstream Muslims on the issue of Hadiths?

Much love in Christ :wub

BruceDLimber

Greetings!

As to Islam, Baha'is accept only the Qur'an as legitimate scripture WITH THE EXCEPTION of the few Hadith which Baha'u'llah actually quoted Himself!

We ignore (and effectively reject) all other Hadith; and this is only proper as even the Muslims themselves can't agree on which subset of them is in fact accurate and reliable!

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Yeshua

Thank you Bruce That explains much. I've always had a problem with the Hadiths. If Islam were based solely on the Quran and reason I really think all of the extremism over the years would never have taken place. It is the Hadiths, fabrications, which are the problem. By the above do you mean that the portions of the Hadiths Baha'ullah quoted are valid or the whole hadiths from which he took the quotations?

Peace :wub

bwb

Here is a compilation of quotations that Baha'is can use to explain the general Baha'i position about the authenticity of hadiths. To make a long story short, the Qur'an is authentic(though obviously some people have distorted its meaning), hadiths quoted by Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha are authentic, other hadiths may or may not be authentic, large scale falsification of hadiths was perpetrated by the Umayyad Caliphs, the Baha'i Faith is protected from becoming falsified because we don't view Baha'i "pilgrim's notes" as authoritative.



For instance, the Qur'án was an impregnable stronghold unto the people of Muhammad. In His days, whosoever entered therein, was shielded from the devilish assaults, the menacing darts, the soul-devouring doubts, and blasphemous whisperings of the enemy. Upon him was also bestowed a portion of the everlasting and goodly fruits -- the fruits of wisdom, from the divine Tree. To him was given to drink the incorruptible waters of the river of knowledge, and to taste the wine of the mysteries of divine Unity.

All the things that people required in connection with the Revelation of Muhammad and His laws were to be found revealed and manifest in that Ridvan of resplendent glory. That Book constitutes an abiding testimony to its people after Muhammad, inasmuch as its decrees are indisputable, and its promise unfailing. All have been enjoined to follow the precepts of that Book until "the year sixty"[1] -- the year of the advent of God's wondrous Manifestation. That Book is the Book which unfailingly leadeth the seeker unto the Ridvan of the divine Presence, and causeth him that hath forsaken his country and is treading the seeker's path to enter the Tabernacle of everlasting reunion. Its guidance can never err, its testimony no other testimony can excel. All other traditions, all other books and records, are bereft of such distinction, inasmuch as both the traditions and they that have spoken them are confirmed and proven solely by the text of that Book. Moreover, the traditions themselves grievously differ, and their obscurities are manifold.
[1 The year 1260 A.H.]

Muhammad, Himself, as the end of His mission drew nigh, spoke these words: "Verily, I leave amongst you My twin weighty testimonies: The Book of God and My Family." Although many , the year of the Báb's Declaration. traditions had been revealed by that Source of Prophethood and Mine of divine Guidance, yet He mentioned only that Book, thereby appointing it as the mightiest instrument and surest testimony for the seekers; a guide for the people until the Day of Resurrection.

With unswerving vision, with pure heart, and sanctified spirit, consider attentively what God hath established as the testimony of guidance for His people in His Book, which is recognized as authentic by both the high and lowly. To this testimony we both, as well as all the peoples of the world, must cling, that through its light we may know and distinguish between truth and falsehood, guidance and error. Inasmuch as Muhammad hath confined His testimonies to His Book and to His Family, and whereas the latter hath passed away, there remaineth His Book only as His one testimony amongst the people.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 200)

Now we come to Muhammad. Americans and Europeans have heard a number of stories about the Prophet which they have thought to be true, although the narrators were either ignorant or antagonistic: most of them were clergy; others were ignorant Muslims who repeated unfounded traditions about Muhammad which they ignorantly believed to be to His praise.
Thus some benighted Muslims made His polygamy the pivot of their praises and held it to be a wonder, regarding it as a miracle; and European historians, for the most part, rely on the tales of these ignorant people.
For example, a foolish man said to a clergyman that the true proof of greatness is bravery and the shedding of blood, and that in one day on the field of battle a follower of Muhammad had cut off the heads of one hundred men! This misled the clergyman to infer that killing is considered the way to prove one's faith to Muhammad, while this is merely imaginary. The military expeditions of Muhammad, on the contrary, were always defensive actions
...
Beyond this fact, all the narrations of the Muslims, Christians and others are simply fabrications, which have their origin in fanaticism, or ignorance, or emanate from intense hostility. For example, the Muslims say that Muhammad cleft the moon, and that it fell on the mountain of Mecca: they think that the moon is a small body which Muhammad divided into two parts and threw one part on this mountain, and the other part on another mountain. Such stories are pure fanaticism. Also the traditions which the clergy quote, and the incidents with which they find fault, are all exaggerated, if not entirely without foundation.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 18)

They must strive to obtain, from sources that are authoritative and unbiased, a sound knowledge of the history and tenets of Islam -- the source and background of their Faith -- and approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God. They must devote special attention to the investigation of those institutions and circumstances that are directly connected with the origin and birth of their Faith, with the station claimed by its Forerunner, and with the laws revealed by its Author.
(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49)

The history of religion clearly illustrates the misunderstanding, division and error that have resulted from reliance on verbal statements as a source of authoritative knowledge of religious teachings. One of the precious bounties of this Dispensation is that the door has been closed, clearly and unambiguously, to such a source of problems. In response to a question, the Master wrote:

"Thou hast written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrim's notes.
Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be
trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of
Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic." (Translated extract
from a previously-untranslated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá)

(International Teaching Centre, 1984 Jul 01, Concerns about Retributive Calamity)

A passing reference was made earlier[1] to a nefarious scheme which Mu'awiyah calculated would bring 'Ali into disrepute and besmirch his memory. Mu'awiyah had already instituted a daily ritual of cursing 'All from the pulpit. Next, he bribed some of his minions, who had known. the Prophet and had been with Him, to engage in blasphemous forgery. These despicable men, such as Mughirah and Abu-Hurayrah, opened the field, under Mu'awiyah's direction, to the corruption of doctrine, text, belief and practice. Their deeds were heinous, but their lies can, on the whole, be easily detected. Unfortunately they had their imitators, until faked traditions flooded an eager market. In this a number of Sh'iah apologists must bear their share of blame. There is a vast corpus[2] of genuine traditions that have come down from the Prophet and from His descendants -- the Imams of the Legitimists, the Sh'iahs -- but there are also a great many which are spurious, some blasphemous, others only ridiculous. Incitement to forgery is yet another misdeed of the founder of the Umayyad dynasty.
[1 See p.191. ]
[2 The four great compilations of traditions are: the Sahih of al-Bukhari (d. 870); the Sahih of Muslim, a native of Nishapur in the province of Khurasan (d. 875); the Sahih of at-Timidhi (d. 892); and the Sahih of an-Nisa'i (d. 914). As-Sahih means the 'Genuine'.]

(H.M. Balyuzi, Muhammad and the Course of Islam, p. 192)

Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shi'a view
The Shi'a view is briefly expressed in the Shi'a book "Sulh al-Hasan" [12]:

Mu'awiya designed an Umayyad policy. The Umayyad rulers after him followed that policy. They (i.e., the Umayyads) wanted to make themselves lords. They wanted to show the people that they had all laudable qualities. So generosity, clemency, cleverness, bravery, and eloquence belonged to them, not to the people. In other words the Umayyads wanted to denote that these qualities were some of their special talents. The Umayyads did their best to fix this intentional policy. Thus they made a false history that was full of a series of fabricated traditions, made-up stories, various lies, and baseless claims. Moreover, they ordered the hireling preachers and the teachers of the schools in all Muslim countries to study the Umayyad hopes including false praise or fake slander.[13]
(quoted from an older version of the wikipedia article about the Umayyad Caliphate)


This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.
Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God....
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 171)

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 174)

bwb

According to Shoghi Effendi, westerners are the victims of a great deal of misinformation about Islam. The Baha'i version of Islam is the extreme opposite of the version of Islam that Muslim dictators, terrorists and violent bigots endorse.

"There is so much misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. ...

"The truth is that Western historians have for many centuries distorted the facts to suit their religious and ancestral prejudices. The Bahá'ís should try to study history anew, and to base all their investigations first and foremost on the written Scriptures of Islam and Christianity."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 27, 1936)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 495)

Concord

@Yeshua, As I see it, the Hadith are valued when they are in accordance with the Quran, just as in the Baha'i Faith, pilgrim notes and Abdu'l-Baha's speeches are valued when they help to a better understanding of the writings and not when contradicting them.

The point raised however is in regards with social laws in religion. Baha'is believe that all religions have eternal spiritual teachings (love, justice, truthfulness etc) and temporary social teachings (marriage and divorce, punishment for crime, etc) These social teachings that are adapted to the specific needs of a day and age are liable to change and cannot be implemented in another age.

So the social laws of Judaisme, Christianity and of Islam, whether in the Holy books or in traditions, are subject to change but their spiritual teachngs are eternal

Concord

Yeshua wrote: do you mean that the portions of the Hadiths Baha'ullah quoted are valid or the whole hadiths from which he took the quotations?

@Yeshua, my understanding is that all parts of divine teachings, philosphy tarditions etc that are in harmony with the new Revelation are valued for inspiring our lives, and whatever is not in harmony is considered as outdated and of historical value.

bwb

Yes, you're exactly right,Concord. In 'Abdu'l-Baha's words:

"The Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.
...
The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 47)

bwb

For example, Baha'u'llah taught that the amputation of a thief's hand is not any longer the correct punishment:

"If a man steals, shall his hand be cut off? This punishment was just and right in the law of Moses, but it was applicable to the desert, where there were no prisons and reformatory institutions of later and higher forms of government. Today you have government and organization, a police system, a judge and trial by jury. The punishment and penalty is now different. Therefore, the nonessentials which deal with details of community are changed according to the exigency of the time and conditions. But the essential foundation of the teachings of Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus and Bahá'u'lláh is identical, is one; there is no difference whatsoever."

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 168)

bwb

We can answer each of these points one at a time, if you like(?). I already answered someone about wife-beating (in the Baha'i Faith and Islam) in a different thread and here is my answer copied here:

BAHA'I TEACHINGS:

"From the pen of Bahá'u'lláh Himself has come the following statement on the subject of the treatment of women:

"The friends of God must be adorned with the ornament of justice, equality, kindness and love. As they do not allow themselves to be the object of cruelty and transgression, in like manner they should not allow such tyranny to visit the handmaidens of God. He, verily, speaketh the truth and commandeth that which benefiteth His servants and handmaidens. He is the Protector of all in this world and the next."

No Bahá'í husband should ever beat his wife, or subject her to any form of cruel treatment; to do so would be an unacceptable abuse of the marriage relationship and contrary to the Teachings of Bahá'u'lláh."

(The Universal House of Justice, 1993 Jan 24, Violence Against Women, Sexual Abuse)

TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD:

Baha'is believe that Muhammad was a man of extreme compassion and tenderheartedness, so much so that His enemies accused him of being womanly. Those qualities were also reflected in his attitude towards the treatment of women, according to Muhammad Asad, the author of one of the best translations-with-commentary of the Qur'an in English.

Although the noble conduct of the Prophets and Holy Ones of God is widely known, and it is indeed, until the coming of the Hour, in every aspect of life an excellent pattern for all mankind to follow, nevertheless some have remained neglectful of and separated from these qualities of extraordinary sympathy and loving-kindness, and have been prevented from attaining to the inner significances of the Holy Books.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 53)


The Message of The Quran translated and explained by Muhammad Asad : Arthur's Classic Novels

"45 It is evident from many authentic Traditions that the Prophet himself intensely detested
the idea of beating one's wife, and said on more than one occasion, "Could any of you beat his
wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Bukhari and Muslim).
According to another Tradition, he forbade the beating of any woman with the words, "Never
beat God's handmaidens" (Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ibn Hibban and
Hakim, on the authority of Iyas ibn 'Abd Allah; Ibn Hibban, on the authority of 'Abd Allah
ibn 'Abbas; and Bayhaqi, on the authority of Umm Kulthum). When the above Qur'an-verse
authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have
said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing - and what God has willed must
be best" (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of
the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that beating should be resorted to only
if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should
be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this
effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these
Traditions, all the authorities stress that this "beating", if resorted to at all, should
be more or less symbolic - "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the
views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and
some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just
barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the
Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem."

Concord

@bwb; thanks for the quote. Here is a similar one from Abdu'l-Baha's talks, so less authoritative than SAQ:
"Each divine revelation is divided into two parts. The first part is essential... It is the exposition of significances and realities. It is the expression of the love of God, the knowledge of God. This is one in all the religions, unchangeable and immutable; The second part is inessential. It belongs to practical life, to transactions and business, and changes according to the requirements… These moral laws are the reflections on this plane of the divine laws, and they become the medium for transmuting the thought of man into his reality. The moral laws change as the horizon of man extends."
Abdu'l-Baha on Christ and Christianity : An interview with Pasteur Monnier , Paris 17 February 1917, ABS of English-Speaking Europe, December 1993

arthra

Yeshua,

A lot of the Shariah laws were abrogated by Baha'u'llah in His Most Holy Book Kitab-i-Aqdas as well as the practices as you've noted:

In modern day Iran, we can see the suffering this barbaric practice and others like it (child-brides, wife beating, offensive Jihad, religious intolerance, death penalty for apostasy, forced Hijab wearing, death penalty for homosexuals) have caused and they stem directly from these false Hadiths which are widely accepted by mainstream Muslims.

are abrogated.

Jihad or holy war is forbidden .. Baha'is are enjoined to consort with the followers of all religions .. While Baha'i women will wear a veil in public in some Muslim countries it is so as not to draw attention to themselves. Women are not required to wear a veil in this disopensation..

bwb

Here are some Islamic hadiths which are quoted or mentioned in Baha'i books. As you can see, these hadiths preach religious tolerance. By far the majority of hadiths which are quoted in Baha'i books are hadiths which were prophecies fulfilled by the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Some of them were prophecies which foretold that, in a future time, the Muslim clergy would become very degraded spiritually, and that they would reject and persecute Islam's Promised One.

Honour thy guest though he be an infidel.

(The Dawn-Breakers, p. 407)

Welcome your guests though they be of the infidels.

(The Dawn-Breakers, p. 397)

Have you not again and again declared that no such prayer is acceptable in the sight of God until and unless the imam who leads the congregation has purged his heart from every trace of malice?

(The Dawn-Breakers, p. 282)

Have they forgotten the celebrated hadith (Holy Tradition): "Seek after knowledge, even unto China"

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 25)

('Abdu'l-Baha points out that the Chinese were atheists and idol-worshppers. but Muslims should seek knowledge from them anyways. Therefore they should seek knowledge from Christians, Baha'is etc. who are not atheists or idol-worshippers.)

44. The Golden Rule, the teaching that we should treat others as we ourselves would wish to be treated, is an ethic variously repeated in all the great religions:
Buddhism: "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varqa, 5:18.
Zoroastrianism: "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is not good for its own self." Dadistan-i Dinik, 94:5.
Judaism: "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire Law, all the rest is commentary." The Talmud, Shabbat, 31a.
Hinduism: "This is the sum of all true righteousness: deal with others as thou wouldst thyself be dealt by. Do nothing to thy neighbour which thou wouldst not have him do to thee after." The Mahabharata.
Christianity: "As ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31.
Islam: "No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself." Sunnah.
Taoism: The good man "ought to pity the malignant tendencies of others; to regard their gains as if they were his own, and their losses in the same way." The Thai-Shang.
Confucianism: "Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you." Analects, XV, 23
Bahá'í Faith: "He should not wish for others that which he doth not wish for himself, nor promise that which he doth not fulfill." Gleanings.

(Baha'i International Community, 1995 Oct, Turning Point For All Nations)

whine of astonsihment

@ Yeshua

What an excellent and important discussion you have generated Yeshua! Each and every post has been very enlightening and confirming.

As a mature woman who has been seriously concerned about the church's and society's injustices towards women since age five, I had to intellectually and spiritually take a very big and ginger step 'over' Islam in order to reach the loving and healing words of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha (and even to this day I will not set foot in an Islamic country as a matter of personal principle).

The critical importance of Justice as demonstrated by both its place as the #2 verse of The Hidden Words , second only to possessing "a pure, kind and radiant heart", as well as the content of this verse which describes it as "best-beloved of all things" in the sight of God (and why), and perhaps even to a greater degree for myself on a personal level, the various ways in which it is reflected in the actual application of this principle within our communities, as demonstrated by the importance of educating women before men in under conditions of limited financial resources, how we resolve the issue of Muslims with more than one spouse who enter the Faith, abortion, etc.

I guess that's why we call the Head of the Faith 'The Universal House of Justice' instead of Peace, Unity, Love, or Equality or any other of these Divine goals and ideals (WORDS) - because Justice must inform how we apply and translate them into action (DEEDS).