Yeshua

"...Rest yourselves by the spring of the water of Life..." - Jesus Christ (Gospel of the Saviour)

Yeshua

"...Now if you follow My dance, see yourselves in Me who am speaking. See yourself in Me who speaks, and seeing what I do, keep silence on My mysteries..." - Jesus Christ (The Hymn of Jesus from the Acts of John)

Yeshua

"Let all of you seek the Light, so that the power of the stars - which exists within you - may live" - Jesus Christ (Pistis Sophia)

Yeshua

"Whoever knows the Father in pure knowledge will depart to the Father and rest in that which has no beginning" - Jesus Christ (The Sophia of Jesus Christ)

Yeshua

"Therefore seek out death, like the dead who seek after life. For that which is sought will be revealed. And the one who finds will no longer be troubled. When you come to understand death, you will also understand salvation. For I tell you this, those who fear death cannot be saved; for the Kingdom of God belongs to those who put themselves to death*" - Jesus Christ (Apochryphon of James)

* Referring to death of the "Self", the killing of the ego - not literal death

"Reject death, and think only of Life! Remember my cross and my death, and you will have life" - Jesus Christ (Apochryphon of James)

Yeshua

"...JESUS continued again in the discourse and said unto his disciples: "When I shall have gone into the Light, then herald it unto the whole world and say unto them: Cease not to seek day and night and remit not yourselves until ye find the mysteries of the Light-kingdom, which will purify you and make you into refined light and lead you into the Kingdom of Light...Say rather to the men of the world: Be calm, that ye may receive the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Be ye loving-unto-men, that ye may be worthy of the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Be ye gentle, that ye may receive the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Be ye peaceful, that ye may receive the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Be ye merciful, that ye may receive the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Give ye alms, that ye may receive the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Minister unto the poor and the sick and distressed, that ye may receive the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Be ye loving-unto-God, that ye may receive the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Be ye righteous, that ye may receive the mysteries [of the Light] and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Be good, that ye may receive the mysteries [of the Light] and go on high into the kingdom of light. Say unto them: Renounce all, that ye may receive the mysteries of the Light and go on high into the kingdom of light. These are all the boundaries of the ways for those who are worthy of the mysteries of the Light..." Jesus Christ [Pistis Sophia chapter 102]

cire perdue

I could not begin to find these "extra-curricular" sources that you bring to the Forum. Are any of them "forbidden" to Roman Catholics or are they just considered less authentic like some Baha'i writings?

arthra

Pistis Sophia is a Gnostic work and would not be acceptable to say traditional Christians.

Pistis Sophia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Same with the Apochryphon of James

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphon_of_James

and the Sophia of Jesus Christ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sophia_of_Jesus_Christ

No church council ever finalized the contents of the New Testament; rather, its contents were gradually settled by tradition. The collection of works did not even have a name until about 200 C.E., when the Latin theologian Tertullian coined the term New Testament. Many independent Christian groups had other collections of writings that they considered foundational to their beliefs, but which were never considered sacred or even correct by the mainstream of Christians. The Nag Hammadi library, a collection of forty-six works buried in southern Egypt about 400 C.E. and found in 1945, is the best example.

- Robert Stockman

http://bahai-library.com/stockman_ch...tive&chapter=2

But anyway the Baha'i Writings as you know only refer to the Gospels accepted by traditional Christians.

Yeshua

Dear Cire

Given that we Catholics uphold Sacred Tradition, and not only Sacred Scripture, non-canonical writings - especially those of an early date like the one referred to above (the Pistis Sophia from late first century to early second century) - are judged as potentially having access to genuine Sacred Traditions independent of the Bible. To determine if a tradition is true or can be true, the Church would of course check whether it "doesn't conflict" with Sacred Scripture.

As you can see the above quote, although a bit "flowery", does not conflict with the message of Jesus recorded in scripture or otherwise in Sacred Tradition and given its early date, could very well be genuine "Sacred Tradition".

Some non-canonical writings are given more weight than others ie among those highly regarded as witnesses to Sacred Tradition are the Apostolic Fathers, Gospel of Thomas (which was used by many Church Fathers) etc.

Even some overtly Gnostic texts were built upon the basis of or derive in part from Orthodox sayings sources.

So no, none of these texts are forbidden: Some are encouraged to be read, some have influenced the Church at least as much if not more than the Bible (Ie the Protoevangelium of James which contains much similarities with Qur'an as well), whilst others are more "cautioned" because of Gnostic tampering or redaction or influence or composition.

The Apochryphon of James is dispiuted as to its Gnostic character. Many scholars consider it a largely Orthodox work which was built upon an early sayings source of Orthodox character, although parts of it might be "gnosticized".

The Pistis Sophia is almost entirely Gnostic, and so obviously not "accepted" by Catholics, however as with many Gnostic texts it does contain or allude to many non-Gnostic principles and probably derives from earlier traditions which are Orthodox.

Whenever I quote a non-Orthodox, non-canonical writing I always check first with scholars to ascertain what parts of the text are considered to be derived from earlier sources. I never quote any actual Gnostic teachings, rather I quote the parts of these texts that do not conflict with Orthodox Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Catholics have no problem with the quote from the Pistis Sophia above, however they would with other parts of the text.

That's because the Pistis Sophia, and Gnostic texts like it, are not "inspired" - however they do often contain "inspired" teachings which the Gnostic authors had access too and which have otherwise been lost over time, if that makes sense to you.

Helmut Koester, one of the greatest experts on Orthodox sources underlying Gnostic texts, says:

"...Older traditions lie underneath Gnostic writings such as the Dialogue of the Saviour. Indeed, there are a number of first century sources contained in the Dialogue of the Saviour [alone]. The dialogue sections are elaborations of sayings of Jesus which show no sign of the use of any known gospel [in other words, suggesting access to an independent and early sayings tradition]..."

The scholar Andrew Philip Smith writes:

"...While much of the speech attributed to Jesus in the Nag Hammadi writings is extravagant and un-Jesus like, other sayings have much more in common with the general tradition of Jesus sayings. In ancient times, new writings were often built on the basis of the older texts, especially because each new copy was made by hand. Source critics believe that a number of first century sources lie behind many Gnostic writings..."

The Apochryphon of James is certainly based on early sayings traditions independent of, but clearly related to the Bible, and has nothing overtly Gnostic in it!

Yeshua

"...Mary Magdalene said, weeping: Hear, O peoples, tribes, and tongues, and learn to what death the lawless Judeaens have delivered him who did them ten thousand good deeds. Hear, and be astonished. Who will let these things be heard by all the world? I shall go alone to Rome, to the Cæsar. I shall show him what evil Pilate has done..." (Acts of Pilate Ch 11)

Ron Cameron writes of the "Acts of Pilate":

"...The Acts of Pilate was composed sometime after the Four Gospels of the New Testament and before the first certain attestation of the text in the writings of Epiphanius (300s). If Justin referred to a work such as this, then the earliest possible date of composition would be sometime in the mid-to-late second century. The latest likely date would be in the third century...Justin Martyr (103–165) twice referred to a document entitled "the Acts of Pontius Pilate". His matter-of-fact introduction to this document...makes it likely that he was referring to an actual document known to him and transmitted under Pilate's name..."

As can be seen, the Acts of Pilate is thus an early - potentially very early - witness to the tradition that Mary Magdalene travelled to Rome, which seems to be backed up by Paul's reference in Romans to a very prominent Mary, who was a believer in Christ before Paul, from Judea originally and who was the most prominent person in the Church in Rome. Regardless, all scholars I've read agree that the Acts of Pilate contains much "earlier material", then its ultimate third century (or at a stretch fourth century) compilation ie the final copy we have now.

Abdu'l-Baha believed this tradition, teaching it in Baha'i scripture and on many other occassions:

"Announce, on my behalf, respectful greeting to the attracted maid-servant of God, Miss ..., and say: O thou beloved maid-servant of God! Now is the time, now is the moment in which, like unto Mary Magdalene (who loosened her tongue in the city of great Rome), thou mayest arise and become engaged in teaching the coming of the Kingdom of God and spread far and wide to the ears the glad-tidings of the Realm of Eternity!"

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha Vol.2, p. 467)

"That night [December 22, 1912] after dinner, in the drawing-room of 97 Cadogan Gardens, He talked about Christ and His advent, about Christians of early days and particularly Mary Magdalene. Mary, He said, made her way to Rome, sought out the Emperor and interceded for the Jews whom Pontius Pilate was persecuting for having misled him to condemn Jesus to death. Christians, Mary told the Emperor, did not desire revenge. She begged him to send orders to Pilate to cease persecuting the Jews, and the Emperor complied with her wishes."

(H.M. Balyuzi, Abdu'l-Baha - The Centre of the Covenant, p. 348)

Juliet Thompson later depicted this scene in her, "I Mary Magdalene" novel, based upon these words of Abdu'l-Baha.

arthra

Yeshua wrote:

Whenever I quote a non-Orthodox, non-canonical writing I always check first with scholars to ascertain what parts of the text are considered to be derived from earlier sources. I never quote any actual Gnostic teachings, rather I quote the parts of these texts that do not conflict with Orthodox Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Catholics have no problem with the quote from the Pistis Sophia above, however they would with other parts of the text.

That's because the Pistis Sophia, and Gnostic texts like it, are not "inspired" - however they do often contain "inspired" teachings which the Gnostic authors had access too and which have otherwise been lost over time, if that makes sense to you.

My comment:

Yeshua.. You decided to quote from these texts under thread title 'Holy Scriptures of World Religions" on the Baha'i Forum.

I really personally have no problem with whether you accept them or not as you wrote above:

I quote the parts of these texts that do not conflict with Orthodox Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition

And if the church wants to accept them into the canon of scripture that's their business..

But I do have a concern that someone who is say trying to learn about the Baha'i Faith happens on this thread and reading your entries may have the impression that Baha'is accept them and that we believe they are part of the Holy Scriptures of the World Religions.

There's certainly a place for the study the Nag Hammadi scrolls and their significance and you can also find Gnostic text resources on the Web..but I would suggest they are probably not that much of primary concern to most Baha'is.

Yeshua

"A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me...Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy. When a woman is in labour, she has pain, because her hour has come. But when her child is born, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy of having brought a human being into the world. So you have pain now; but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you"

- Jesus Christ, Gospel of John 16:16-19.20-22

Is anybody else struck by how beautiful and moving this image is? Christ compares the pain and sense of bereavement which his disciples will experience when he is dead to a woman giving birth. They will feel as if their entire world has collapsed. But out of this pain, joy will arise. For they will see Christ again, in a little while, and then their hears will rejoice and yet unlike with earthly joy, which is impermanent and which like all earthly things must pass away, this joy will never cease. And Christ compares this to what is potentially the most agonizing experience but the one of out of which arises the greatest earthly joy of all: The birth of a child, the pain of childbirth giving way to the unimaginable joy of having brought a human being into the world, a new life.

I see this verse as not not only poignant and pertinent to the situation at hand - Christ dying and rising again, but rather I see it as extending to all who have lost loved ones. They may be gone from our sight, but we live with the knowledge that in a "little while", in Divine terms, we will be re-united with them in the afterlife, and our joy will be complete and unfading.

I find this verse so comforting. Anybody else?

I also like the idea that true joy cannot come without being preceded by grief. Is it not only when we have experienced sadness, loss, suffering that we can truly appreciate what truly is "joyous" in life and relish it for all its worth?

Joy cannot come without being preceded by grief.

Think about it brothers and sisters: When have you experienced pain followed by joy? How did that suffering intensify the joy that followed?

aidan

I think it sinificant that Jesus tells his listeners that they will have joy again when he returns

Fadl

"Strive, therefore, to create love in the hearts
in order that they may become glowing and radiant.
When that love is shining, it will permeate other hearts
even as this electric light illumines its surroundings.
When the love of God is established,
everything else will be realized.
This is the true foundation of all economics.
Reflect upon it."

—‘Abdu’l-Bahá