Livindesert

Actually when scientist get into how the big bang was started the math gets more cyclic as one theory is different dimensions occasionally collide starting big bang cycles. So in other words stuff was happening in another universe before this big bang. But overall no one knows any of this for sure. I just know God will give us knowledge as we are ready for it.

Orthodox

I think whine can't reasonably attack my positions and so has to attack me. Gotta love them ad hominems right Whine?

Orthodox

Im talking about the evidence, not the theories. All these theories that suggest a universe expanding and collapsing into itself are mere theories that are not supported by evidence. Infact the universe itself is expanding at an ever fast rate which seriously downplays this idea.

LordOfGoblins

I dont see how it undercuts God.
If you imagine the universe as a scientific framework of perfection within a scientific context you see that everything within this framework is independant. ie it does NOT need God to function. When have you ever seen God step in and create something? The scientific laws are what create and destroy.
Now that is the reason why atheists argue for the non-existance of God. They say "Where did God create the universe". I dont see any magical hand coming down and creating the universe and the idea Gods hand created the universe in 7 days is just unscientific. They cannot accept it and indeed that is for good reason. Science shows it is an unlikely scenario. In any case the proofs of creations dependance of the lord God are not because we can see an instance of time when the universe functions outside the laws of science. The proofs are deeper and laid up within the observing of the known universe.
One of the most important verities of this worldly existance is that it functions independant of divine science with the functioning of physical science while at the same time being totally dependant of divine bounty.
Now whether you can see how creation is dependant of divine bounty is entirely up to your levels of insight. But you will never be able to proove to a scientist that the world was created in seven days by a gigantic hand... so good luck.

Orthodox

If you present the universe as eternal you make something on par with God, equal to God. How is this is God is the greatest thing? How can god claim to be the first and the last and have worship only derived to him when the universe is also the first and the last? It presents sort of an ancient greek understanding of God, that God molds things into shape with an eternal substance if he does not created Ex nihilo. It also I think places God within the realm of the universe I think for if the universe is eternal and God is as well where does God dwell? Why Dwell outside the universe?

And obviously its self destructive, cause you cannot count back eternity years to reach a certain time. No the universe is not eternal and to say such makes God not the greatest thing and you have something that has the quality of God. Its making matter and our material universe on equal with God. For why should I obey God? Why not just worhip the universe and do what I like?

LordOfGoblins

I see your logic. But the fact is God can still be infinately greater than you or me and our souls can still be eternal. For example: God can build a rock and the rock could have been in existance eternally. But so what? Its still a rock...
Likewise you and my souls will exist eternally. Our souls will never perish...
That doesnt mean we are as great as God.
Believe it or not I am not lowering God in fact you are. This is how you are lowering God. By implying that God needs an instance in time to concieve creation you are implying a certain limitation on his ability. For example lets say the creation of the universe is one big complex mathimatical problem. Now how long will it take me to work out this mathematical problem. Because my maths is not perfect it will take me eg. 10000000 years (eg). For God it takes 0 time because Gods knowledge is infiniate (as his power). He needs 0 time to solve this maths problem likewise he needs 0 time in which to create the universe.
Think about it. There are other reasons too. God is unchanging. Change is a aspect of imperfect things. God neednt change because he is perfect. His knowledge neednt grow or shrink because it is all-encompassing. His mercy likewise is the same: perfect. His creativity is likewise perfect. God neednt any growth in his creativity. You or I need to sit and reflect to create a nice story. The longer we reflect the nicer or more better story we can imagine. Our creativity grows with increased reflection as our ideas grow. God is not bound by this limitation. Again he is infiniate and time is our limitation not his.
again God exists outside of time. The universe could not have therefore been created within the context of time since the universe is bound by time. Think about it. Everything you see comes forth in a moment in time. The universe however is=equal to the fabric of time. ie. time is a fundamental property that cannot be seperated from the universe. Certain things in nature have this and Abdul'Baha talks about this. For example wetness cannot be separated from water that is in its liquid state (i think thats an example he gives but you can research it).
I can say more about this but this is enough I think...

tonyfish58

I think this all adds to the point why worry about it?

It is beyond our current capacity to understand, mine anyway

The important thing for mankind at this time before we destroy each other, is Unity

Lets work out how to do that before we solve the complexities of existence and universal creation

Cheers Tony

tonyfish58

'Abdu'l-Baha's Commentary on "I Was a Hidden Treasure..."

A good read - Link to discussion is above

In the third section on "Creation", 'Abdu'l-Baha tackles one of the key issues that has divided philosophers (especially Islamic philosophers) over many centuries [3]. The issue at its simplest level revolves around whether the archetypal forms and the quiddities of all created things, being the objects of the knowledge of God, exist within the Knowledge of God (and therefore because the Knowledge of God is an unchangeable eternal attribute, these share in the Pre-existence of the Essence of the Absolute); or the Essence of the Absolute and Its Knowledge are independent of those archetypal forms which were therefore created and came into being (i.e. are not pre-existent). This issue that at first may appear inconsequential and merely a question of the point at which one limits one's definition of God, has in fact many deeper ramifications that have made it a key dividing point between philosophical systems. The first view that these quiddities and archetypal forms are co-eternal with the Essence of God (although at first they have no existence outside the Knowledge of God) is the position of the Peripatetic philosophers such as Aristotle, al-Fárábí, and Ibn Síná. It was also followed by Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsá'í. From this view-point, God is totally outside His Creation and there is no resemblance nor any connection between the two. Thus His Essence and His Attributes (such as Seeing and Hearing) are not like our essence and our attributes and any resemblance is in name only. This view-point leads to a rigidly dualistic universe. Its social consequences are a tendency towards ritualism and legalism in ritual practice - i.e. that man's relationship to God is primarily concerned with worship and obedience to His law.

The second view regards all existence as emanating from God and all except God being absolute non-existence. Thus the archetypal forms and quiddities are regarded as having been created and come into being as a stage in emanation from the Absolute. This is the position of the philosophers of the Neo-Platonic School such as Porphyry and Ibn al-'Arabí. The relationship between God and man thus tends towards mutuality. True fulfillment for man from this point of view is to realise and return to his reality as an emanation from God. This is a movement away from strict dualism although many who follow this school cannot be regarded as monists.

earthling155

I've been studying cosmology for most of my life, I'm 51, and I've been thinking that maybe our scientists have misunderstood the evidence. We see an expanding universe and if we follow it back in time, we reason that there must be a beginning. What if God, "the Central Orb of the universe," is the Source of the universe, like a spring is the source of a river.

I agree that time is an attribute of natural reality, and not necessarily spiritual reality. I'm just saying that perhaps God is like the sun and the universe is like the sunshine pouring out from the Source. Baha'u'llah's says that God is like the sun, the Holy Spirit is like the sunshine and the Manifestations of God are like perfect mirrors reflecting the light, the truth, the life.

Another one of my ideas is that all of reality is like water. E=MC2 means that the universe is made out of energy. Matter is a particular kind of energy, just like ice is a particular kind of water. Spirituality is the vapor phase of water. God is everything, God is heaven and earth. There isn't anything other than God. But then, Baha'u'llah says that God is completely independent of His creation, so maybe that idea isn't an exact analogy of reality.

Baha'u'llah also mentions that the heat generated by the interaction between the active force and the receiving force is this wondrous structure, or something like that. Well superstring theory proposes that natural reality is composed of strings of energy vibrating in multiple dimensions. The frequency, amplitude and dimensions in which the strings vibrate determine what kind of particle the string is. It can be one of about 15 different kinds of quarks. Gluons are the force that holds three Quarks together to form a proton or neutron. Quarks and leptons are the fundamental particles. Leptons are electrons and neutrinos, etc. The symmetry is the balance in the whole system. Anyway, heat is vibration. The vibrating influence is a term Baha'u'llah mentions every once in a while, including in His reference to this wondrous structure of natural reality.

Just a few of my thoughts about the subject of "For this Universe has no beginning..."
I haven't read this thread, yet. I'm just interested in this subject.

Peace be with you all

Yeshua

Arthra referred in this thread to the "Primal Will".

I found an interesting use of this phrase in Dante's "Paradiso", the third and final part of his Divine Comedy. Dante Alighieri was Catholic mystic poet of the 13th century.

"O minds of earth! O clods! it ne'er could be
That Primal Will, good in Itself, should quit
Its very Self, of Good the A per se.
Right's right so far as that with That doth fit;
No finite good draws That to its own measure"

Paradise, Canto XIX, lines 85-88

The above canto speaks of God transcending all conceptuality because 'he is Being itself', and therefore 'beyond and above' being. In this part of 'Paradiso', the poet is journeying through the circling spheres towards God, and comes to Jupiter, where he encounters the souls of just monarchs, who form an eagle which speaks to him. Among the things it says is that God's will, because it is just, cannot depart from Justice; so man cannot ask if God's judgements are just, but only if a judgement conforms with God's will. If it does, it is just.

aidan

I have come to terms with it thus,perhaps an over simplification but works for me.Nothing can come from nothing,a vacuum will eternally be a vacuum therefore the big bang came from somethng.That something is the mindof God from which Baha'u'llah, the universe,myself and those I love emanated and where we always wer waiting for God to chose His time for putting us to use.Forgive my infantile drivel,stupid I know and totally unqualified as am neither scientist nor theologian

LordOfGoblins

Brother this is how I see it.
THe universe operates without any visible intervention from the divine. But intervention that the spirtual eye can see.
It is self-subsisting within its own framework with its physical laws creating and destroying within itself.
Atheists always want for proof where God intervened to create something eg the event in Genesis, but I dont think anything like this ever happened, even with the big-bang. The universe is constantly changing exploding expanding etc, but I dont think the universe ever exploded outside of a fabric of space/time and then become a fabric of space/time.