Yeshua

What did Abdu'l-Baha mean from the following in "Some Answered Questions". He was talking about the Universal Cycles of the Manifestations and then he said this remarkable statement:

In this way cycles begin, end and are renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world, when important events and great occurrences will take place which entirely 161 efface every trace and every record of the past; then a new universal cycle begins in the world, for this universe has no beginning

"This universe has no beginning"? How can that be? This confused me somewhat. Don't Baha'is believe that God created the Universe and thus it had a beginning? If not then the passage would seem to suggest that the Universe is an emanation of God, which I think leads to something akin to saying that the Universe and God are co-eternal. However I have read passages in Baha'i Writings which seem to dispute this idea, and indeed such an idea has been disputed by modern science, with the birth of the Big Bang theory in 1931 due to the work of Father Georges Lemaitre. Hinduism still holds to this kind of concept nonetheless.

Baha'i writer (and Hand of the Cause) J. E. Esslemont - who was from my neck of the woods YAY! - writes, "Baha'u'llah teaches that the universe is without beginning in time. It is a perpetual emanation from the Great First Cause." J. E. Esslemont, _Baha'u'llah and the New Era,_ 3d ed. (BPT, 1970), 204

Do you think he is right? If so what are the philosophical implications? Is it not untenable both philosophically and scientifically to maintain that the universe is without a beginning and yet has a first cause? Doesn't the Big Bang suggest that this universe had a beginning, coming from a single point, before which there was nothing (except to religious minds God)?

Any help would be appreciated (btw just as an aside I am very proud that Esselmont is Scottish! He did so much for the Baha'i Faith!)

Essence of GOD

the big bang is not the beginning, for where did it take place?
is the space where the big bang happened inside of, not considered universe?

this is only one realm in a multitude of realms, which i believe are all in the one UNIverse.
and even if Multi-verse exists, then what is that space which contains them called? to me its all one, for it is universe, i dont know why people put a limit and age on it?

have you ever tried to imagine non existence or nothingness? its impossible, i cant even picture it in my mind, because we are existence, and were created by and eternal existence, and will forever exist. thats what i think, i might be wrong.

what is the universe made out of? atoms? is that the bottom lowest stage of matter?
i think not, that substance which we dont even know what it is, might also eternal, its never going to not exist, it will change, but it is eternal, for god is eternal.

i dont know man, im a moron, but good question, i always wonder about it too.

Yeshua

Clearly judging from those wonderful and exquisite cosmological ponderings above you are anything but a moron my friend!

whine of astonsihment

"Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy. " -- Albert Einstein

Essence of GOD

again, expanding into nothing?
that "nothing" must be something, for it has to exist in the first place so the universe can expand into.
"nothing" dose not exist. nothing is NOT something.
just my 2 cents

whine of astonsihment

hmmm ... perhaps he was trying to be humorous?
Not sure how relevant and important the exact details are to the realities of life ... at our current level of development anyway.

Essence of GOD

i believe he is trying to say
1. the universe is expanding
2. the universe is limitless
3. who ever says nothing is something, also thinks wearing stripes with plaid comes easy

arthra

In my view it means God has already been creating.. Creation is continuous.. It means that there is not just "seven days of creation"..

Know that an educator without pupils cannot be imagined; a monarch without subjects could not exist; a master without scholars cannot be appointed; a creator without a creature is impossible; a provider without those provided for cannot be conceived; for all the divine names and attributes demand the existence of beings.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 180

The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 281

Essence of GOD

thats exactly what ive been trying to say,
i guess what people think is that God is eternal, and in some point in time he decided to create the universe. thus giving creation birth.
and if God is not part of creation, then creation can not be like God, which has no beginning.

Orthodox

This universe clearly did have a begining if we take the basic model of the Big bang it shows that all matter, space and time originated from this one point, hence the big bang to give a sophmoric explanation of the event. But before that science has no say, it gets into the realm of scientific speculation and philosophical explanation.

The Best answer? A first cause to solve infinite regress.

Essence of GOD

good point,
but, im still not sure if space and time originated from big bang.
for what about where the big bang happened, was that place not considered space.
and time can not have a start point, for what about the time before the beginning of time?

arthra

Orthodox

There was no time before time, but God who is eternal by which all is derived by. If you believe in time, and it is like it is now, you should be able to go back to the beggining, but if we accept your interpretation you would never reach the begining which is illogical. Time had a begining. This universe began to exist.

Essence of GOD

hahahaha
how can we say there was no time before its beginning,
and still say there was a time when even time hadn't start yet?

if god has always been, and forever will be, then same rule applies to time.
at least for me

arthra

Parallel Universes and other dimensions are possible and one of the concepts found in the Baha'i Writings is that of the Worlds of God:

If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station...

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 155


How could such Souls have consented to surrender themselves unto their enemies if they believed all the worlds of God to have been reduced to this earthly life?

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 158

Wert thou to ponder in thine heart the behavior of the Prophets of God thou wouldst assuredly and readily testify that there must needs be other worlds besides this world.

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 156

Verily I say, the human soul is, in its essence, one of the signs of God, a mystery among His mysteries. It is one of the mighty signs of the Almighty, the harbinger that proclaimeth the reality of all the worlds of God. Within it lieth concealed that which the world is now utterly incapable of apprehending.

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 158

The moment of creation and the Primal Point a title of the Bab is worth noting:

A PRAISE which is exalted above every mention or description beseemeth the Adored One, the Possessor of all things visible and invisible, Who hath enabled the Primal Point to reveal countless Books and Epistles and Who, through the potency of His sublime Word, hath called into being the entire creation, whether of the former or more recent generations.

~ Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 159

I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendour can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade.

~ The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 12

LordOfGoblins

God without creation is not a creator. It is his attributes that necessitates there is a creation for him to be a creator!!!

LordOfGoblins

Its like saying. Wasnt there a time when God wasnt compassionate?

Yeshua

How fascinating Arthra! I am finding your posts very interesting and thought-provoking of late. Thank you very much!

Yes parrallel universes are a recent possibility in science. Sadly Richard Dawkins often tries to use the concept to prove there is no God - but maybe our Baha'i brothers and sisters have caught him out there! I suggest he should read your quotations above

The daft thing is this: OK say there is parralell universes, but from where did they originate? Science now says they must have META-LAWS governing them...well who put those "meta-laws", what science calls those "eternal, incomprehensible laws" which govern all the myriad of universes, into place?

So even if there is multiple universes, which is possible altho also not possible, it all comes back to God again.

Yeshua

OMG that is so weird! I was emailing a friend yesterday and speculating about the Big Bang cos of this thread and I used that exact phrase when talking about the Big Bang - THE PRIMAL POINT. What does it mean? It seems to be similar to the Christian concept of Logos. Is the Bab speaking metaphorically about the Spirit of Christ which is animating him and brought all things into being? Obviously he couldn't literally believe that he brought all things into being or he would be more than a Manifestation - he would be more like the Christian concept of Incarnation!

I love that phrase, "Primal Point" it sounds so scientific and weirdly un-religious...

It reminds me of a Jesus-saying from the Gospel of Thomas:

77. Jesus said: I am the light that shines over all things. I am everything. From me all came forth, and to me all will return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there.

Compare with:

I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendour can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade.

~ The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 12

I think the similarity is really incredible between the two! Both the Bab and the Lord Jesus are describing themselves here in terms of the First Light of Creation...the Primal Point...Essence asked earlier, but what is that "single point" the Big Bang theory says everything came from? Well Jesus and the Bab are telling you the answer above.

Sboyce

I was at a pentacostal gathering the other day and they kept praying to "Jesus, who is and was and who is to come" so i dont think it is a Baha'i only view

arthra

Compare Logos to Primal Point.. Logos was coined by Philo Judeaus of Alexandria...

God speaks through the Manifestation,, God spoke through Jesus and through the Bab...the Gate.

A Brief Discussion of the Primal Will in the Baha'i Writings

Creation is re-created through each Manifestation.

God as Creator is still creating new universes in my opinion.. We only know what we know about this one.

Orthodox

How quaint.

Look very carefully at what your saying, the begining, what is the begining? Do you think time as we know it existed before the begining? think about it carefully. If it did it would make no sense for God to be eternal, as you could not go back to the point where God is. Time as we see it, we can go back to that point of the begining but not before it. If time was before this universe, it means God is bound by it. Rather than God creating it. This seriously undercuts your philosophy and makes your God dependant on things, namely being time.

THis is only solved by an eternal first cause and an eternal first cause cannot exist within Time as we see experience it.

Essence of GOD

by beginning , i ment beginning of creation, and yes, i believe time existed before creation.
iam curious how you measure time?
i measure time on a scale of negative infiniti to positive infiniti.
if god said, i have always been and forever will be,
then what tool you use to measure "always"? without using time.
also, what makes you think we cant measure before singularity?
lol at quaint, i wish

LarryK32

Ummm.... wut?

Sboyce

exactly

whine of astonsihment

yep - me too!

LordOfGoblins

I understand what Orthodox is saying. He is saying if there is not a time when God created the creation then the creation is not dependant on God. This however is not necessarily true. We do not fully grasp the concepts of infinity as they apply to the divine. Because God exists outside of time therefore his creation might also be created outside of time. Since we see things constantly coming forth and being created in a moment in time we can argue they are dependant on God but since we dont see the creation coming forth in any moment of time therefore it isnt? The thing is though the fact we are able to percieve a moment in time when things come forth into physical being and claim its creation on God in fact does not make sense. That is because even these things are not truly created they only are emerging states that occur from the mingling of elements in different ways. An element however cannot be created or destroyed it only changes form from another element. Well I dont have the full explanation but iI think that since we cannot percieve a moment in time when the physical framework does not exist it is not necessarily mean that an eternal creation would be independant of God. This is especially when considering that one of the attributes of God is that he is unchanging.
He wont suddenly have an idea to create man and then goes ahead and does it. No, the idea was always with him and his knowledge was always with him as was his creativity always with him. God doesnt change for change is a thing of imperfection and God is eternally perfect.

Yes I am wise

Orthodox

Its simple because within the context of time you cannot measure eternity. Simply put if God is placed in time as we experience it now (Ie a begining and an end as demonstrated by the big bang and the day of judgment) God coult not eternally exist but began at a certain point. Therefore teh only way to accept God as eternal is to accept that he is beyond time, not within the context of time.

Essence of GOD

yes, god is independent of creation, time doesn't apply to god.
but, how do we measure eternity?
and there was a time before the creation of time, cause of god's imortality.
and if we say there was no time before its creation, then its pointless to even look before creation, and thats sad.

Orthodox

Once again you cannot measure eternity because you are within time. If we could measure eternity it would give some credence to your ideas. For instance we can't go back eternity years to reach a certain point because the universe is eternal, this makes no logical sense. The Only way to accept God is to accept he is beyond time, not within Time. And no it is not pointless, as we know what was before Creation, God and God alone.

If you put God within the bubble of time, and thus the universe as being eternal, you make God into a being of that of the ancient Philosophers. There was a substance that God molded that had existed always with God and he made us. Which is completely contrary to Creation Ex Nihilo as has been understood by all the monotheistic faiths.

tonyfish58

I agree

Fun to think about but a pointless quest at this time - Lets unite the world, get peace and then contemplate this subject

Cheers Tony

Essence of GOD

my conclusion is different.
perhaps you are right, who knows.
thanks for the input

Samnl09

By reading this, I'm already bussy achieving this particular goal.

A friend of mine is currently trying to make a series of deepening sessions. Wich consists of certain subjects to gain peoples intrest, and to let them see how they think on that moment. The first two are about what science say and what religion says, And will fininaly come to the point that they are the same. this information comes in quite handy

so Thank you!

(Doens't Abdul-Baha explain the concept of THE UNIVERSE IS WITHOUT BEGINNING in Some answered questions?)

arthra

Welcome to the Forum Samnl! Thanks for the post..

Yes it is in Some Answered Questions:

THE UNIVERSE IS WITHOUT BEGINNING THE ORIGIN OF MAN

Know that it is one of the most abstruse spiritual truths that the world of existence -- that is to say, this endless universe -- has no beginning.

We have already explained that the names and attributes of the Divinity themselves require the existence of beings. Although this subject has been explained in detail, we will speak of it again briefly. Know that an educator without pupils cannot be imagined; a monarch without subjects could not exist; a master without scholars cannot be appointed; a creator without a creature is impossible; a provider without those provided for cannot be conceived; for all the divine names and attributes demand the existence of beings. If we could imagine a time when no beings existed, this imagination would be the denial of the Divinity of God.

Moreover, absolute nonexistence cannot become existence. If the beings were absolutely nonexistent, existence would not have come into being. Therefore, as the Essence of Unity (that is, the existence of God) is everlasting and eternal -- that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end -- it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end. Yes, it may be that one of the parts of the universe, one of the globes, for example, may come into existence, or may be disintegrated, but the other endless globes are still existing; the universe would not be disordered nor destroyed. On the contrary, existence is eternal and perpetual.

As each globe has a beginning, necessarily it has an end because every composition, collective or particular, must of necessity be decomposed. The only difference is that some are quickly decomposed, and others more slowly, but it is impossible that a composed thing should not eventually be decomposed.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 180)

Orthodox

So I take it this means Bahai reject Creation Ex nihilo? Wow...

tonyfish58

Well done - I must agree with you. there are many minds out there who do spend a lot of time chasing this answer

I just feel it is out of our reach at this time, but as you have said, in the end Science and Religion must agree.

Scientific observations like the Big Bang Theory are only stabs in the dark I feel, the answers will be found when we understand the science of our own earth.

How can we contemplate a Universe when we do not even know how our earth works?

Cheers Tony

tonyfish58

Its big this Baha'i message

As promised the Spirit of Truth has guided us unto all truth

The Books are open and all knowledge has been released to mankind.

The proof - Look at history & knowledge gained up to the coming of the Baha'i Faith, look at what has been achieved after this knowledge had been released

Mankind must grasp spirituality when undertaking scientific research. The two wings of a bird are needed.

Cheers Tony

Orthodox

Yes an such ideas of the universe being eternal, severely undercuts God and makes God on the same level with the universe. For is not God Only eternal? How can something that is apart from God be also eternal? Unless you embrace some sort of pantheism? Upon which God is also a thinking person? This is seriously disturbing.

Also scientific evidence thus far supports the universe having a begining from a single point.

tonyfish58

These things do not bother me, I have accepted it is all to big for me to grasp

One thing I do know is that Science will one day catch up to the Knowledge Baha'u'llah has given. Its like when someone told the People that the world was not flat, or the earth revolves around the sun, they were killed for that

Just because Science can not comprehend the Universe at this time, does not mean that in the future they will not.

This is another reason this subject is a bit useless, it is good to contemplate and speculate on, but it would be foolish to base your Faith on it

Cheers Tony

whine of astonsihment

I agree that orthodox is seriously disturbed though...