nada

Hello again,

I've been thinking about this for a while now and i can't seem to find an answer so if anyone has an answer to this it would be great.

Since the bahai faith believes in Islam, and Christianity, How can it also believe in Hinduism and Buddhism where nothing about these religions was ever mentioned in the Quran and the Bible? and nothing about Krishna and Buddha has been mentioned in those 2 main religions?

Thanks

arthra

Hi Nada! Thanks for the great questions...

You know what Baha'is believe is that there has only been one religion of God that has at various times manifested itself through the great Prophets aand Messengers of human history... Due to geographic and cultural differences of language and custom the revelation of God has been filtered and sometimes altered by various people... It's sort of like a news story that gets a different "spin" on it depending on what newspapaer it appears... People quote that part they want to hear or listen to what they think the "truth" should sound like...after awhile the original message gets garbled and people have forgotten the original truth...So God sends a new Messenger to correct them and also sends a Message that is more current and relevant to what people are experiencing and that's a rough parallel to how we see it.

So it isn't that Baha'is believe in Islam, Christianity, etc. It's that we believe the spiritual foundations of the great religions are the same only occasionally alterred with new ordinances or laws to better address the needs of people from time to time...

Buddha and Krishna were mentioned by Abdul-Baha as previouis Manifestations of God and that's one reason we Baha'is accept Them as Manifestations. It doesn't mean Baha'is accept all the things that Buddhists and Hindus do...and so on.

The most relevant Message we feel for today has been revealed through Baha'u'llah.

- Art:wink

bwb

The Qur'án states of unnamed Prophets, "Of other Apostles We have not told Thee." (4:162). A Zoroastrian wrote 'Abdu'l-Bahá to ask why Zoroaster was not mentioned by Muhammad; the Master referred him to Qur'án 25:40 and 50:12, "those who dwelt at Rass," explaining that Rass is the Araxes River and the reference is to Zoroaster and others.
(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 13)

Some Baha'is interpret this saying of Jesus to mean followers of other God-given religions, including Buddhists and Hindus, who will end up coming together in unity because of Baha'u'llah:

10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
(King James Bible, John)

Hindus believe in Jesus Christ as an Avatar/reincarnation of Krishna.

whine of astonsihment

Regarding His Return, Jesus said "And other sheep I have .... and there will be one shepherd and one fold." This encompasses all the followers of all the religions of the world as being "His sheep".

Who can possibly be excluded from that? :wub

Orthodox

Can I have the verse.

whine of astonsihment

John 10:16

Orthodox

Interesting I have no reason to believe your interpretation is valid. In fact I think a better interpretation of this verse might be that the other fold Jesus talks about in this verse is that of the gentiles and they will be brought under him, not that all followers will be eccumenised together or all religions world wide are under him. This simply not stated in the text.

whine of astonsihment

@ orthodoxy:

Well, we are all entitled to our opinions aren't we Kyle? Here's part of a video I made with a few vignettes from the history of the Faith. The first story in this video is about 'dissenting opinions over differing interpretations of Christ's message - I uploaded it just now and just for you! :-) I think Abdul-Baha's reply finally resolved this - for Howard Colby Ives at least...
Only the first story of the three stories on this episode is related to this discussion thread.

Orthodox

Don't call me kyle. Penny.

Livindesert

:lol

Orthodox

Prefer being called by my nic is all.

whine of astonsihment

@ Livindesert
Ok now you've done it - that's the 2nd tissue I've needed to wipe the LOL tears away because of you!
Sure, you're nice and dry out in the desert while I'm here in a flash flood of laughter tears. (Where the heck is Delmarva anyhow?)
No matter! If you do it again I'll send you a friend request which, if you are brave enough to accept, will give me "powers of invocation" (as bestowed upon me by all 6+ of the duly-ordained priests, monks, and theologians swinging from my very own family tree, mind you - with 6, I get a choice of 'invocation powers' or an egg roll you know ... but Greeks don't generally eat egg rolls ....) all of which could leave you open to 'a preemptive attack by invocation' at any time and without warning.
I would show you what I mean by inserting an image here - but I don't know how to do that yet so I've put it on my profile instead!

Be afraid Livindesert .... be very afraid.

Orthodox

Alright a quick responce to desenting views. Baha'u'llahs view is in of itself disenting, it is just his interpretation of what he thinks scripture means and it is not a very convincing one. It was his personal philosophy which influenced the way he read the New testamant. He didn't solve anything, like the protestants before him he added another interpretation to the fold and created more division.

arthra

I personally couldn't find a place where that verse was interpreted by Baha'u'llah so you need to be a little more accurate..if you want to comment perhaps..or provide your interp by all means...

But if someone has that interp by Baha'u'llah please share it!

There is a passage though by Bill Sears a Baha'i where he interprets it in a way as follows:

I remembered the promise given by Christ:

'But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the
sheep...And other sheep have I which are not of this fold: them
also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall
be one fold and one shepherd.' [John 10:2-16.]

The Báb said that he was the herald and forerunner of one greater
than himself. His mission was to call men back to God and to
prepare the way for the great world Saviour foretold by Christ and
all the prophets of the past. Just as John the Baptist had been
the forerunner of Christ, the Báb claimed to be the forerunner of
this Promised Redeemer of all ages.

on another part of THief in the Night it says:

Christ was clearly speaking of the day of His return in this
warning, for He said:

'And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold
(Christianity): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my
voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore
doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might
take it up again.' [John 10:16-17.]

(William Sears, Thief in the Night)



The Baha'i International Community also referred to John 10:16

it is only by achieving true unity that humanity can fully cultivate its diversity and individuality. This is the goal which the missions of all of the Manifestations of God known to history have served, the Day of “one fold and one shepherd.” 5 Its attainment, Bahá’u’lláh says, is the stage of civilization upon which the human race is now entering.

Orthodox

Well it could have been Shoogi Effendi or the Bab, I have no idea. But it is still a disenting view of iterpreting scripture I see no reasonto believe they had divine revelation when interpreting it, mainly because the bahai faith seems to be inconsistent when interpreting it. Was Jesus born of a virgin? Yes or no. That being said I have no reason to believe that verse refers to bahai in the slightest. But instead refers to the jews and gentiles who would become apart of Christ's church. Not of this fold means non jewish, and the gentiles are the ones not of the fold of the jews. This is a much better explanation given the context of Jesus's general teaching that he came to the jews first then to the gentiles.

BruceDLimber

On the contrary, we see this as God influencing Him (and this is true of ALL Divine Messengers, as Baha'u'llah Himself stated)!:

"This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing?"

Bruce

whine of astonsihment

Now as before Orthodoxy, shouldn't you just be trying to convince the non-Orthodox Christians of your 'better interpretations' and unite them under the authentic historicity that you have so thoroughly investigated, validated, and proclaimed - and be impressing them and not us with all the other cool stuff you've uncovered on-line like theosis, the 'proper' understanding of the Holy Trinity, the literal Transubstantiation of the eucharist, the meaning and importance of Chrismation, etc. and other canine tail-chasing, doctrinal and dogmatic doo-doo in my apologetically un-Baha'i but un-apologetically Greek personal opinion?

On purely logical, realistic, and practical levels, how can you possibly hope to convince a single follower of a non-Christian tradition of anything before first convincing your fellow Christians of all these things?

Since you have obviously and repeatedly convinced at least yourself if no one else, that Baha'u'llah is incorrect in His explanations, interpretations, proofs and evidences, that He is the Return of Christ and your that your explanations, interpretations, etc., are better, superior, or whatever adjective sits well with you - then we're done! Are we not? Please?

Should you not have some kind of 'Orthodox Kyle blog' somewhere out there, with all your acquired and inspired knowledge, wisdom, and logic is suitably arrayed, portrayed, and displayed, so we and others can just 'click on a link', as you also must love doing; so we too can search through it and pick and choose what to agree and disagree with and what to simply smile or laugh at, as you seem to enjoying doing?

It's great you had the link for the Hindus-turned-Orthodox-Christians. Where is the link to your blog? Why aren't you crawling all over Hindu sites and forums to explain everything to them, so they can follow their fellow Hindus who have recognized the authentic historicity and the historic authenticity of Orthodoxy? Or is that what you do when you're not on this forum?

Whether you believe it or not Orthodox, I'm not trying to be rude, insulting, or sarcastic. I'm trying to honest, direct, and logical. Receive my words anyway you like but please act on them in one way or another because is it really is time to 'defecate or abdicate the throne' of this sort of idle, competitive, confrontational, disputation. It might be great fun for you and the rest of your on- or off-line social circle, but for Baha'is it really is a boring and useless waste of time.

We thoroughly enjoy consulting and communing amongst ourselves and others to find common ground in comparative religious study and worship because we feel it is a positive, useful, and most of all healing approach to the many ills of today's world and it's in total harmony with our principles to do so. We understand where you're coming from, try and reciprocate if you will.

I much prefer the clear and concise replies of my fellow forum members to my own long-winded whiny wordplay but neither seem to have any effect I'm afraid....:unsure

InvestigateTruth

Just to share with you some other prophesies as well about this:
Bible says, when son of man appears he would tell the people of His time: "I was in prison, and ye came unto me."
This implies that at the second time of Messiah, He would be also imprisoned just like the first time that He was treated with crulty. Another verse in Bible also shows this:
"But first must he suffer many
things, and be rejected of this generation." Matt. 17:26
Another shows, He would apear from the east side of the world, but we would see His faith's prograss in west:
"For as the lightning cometh
out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" Matt. 24:28

arthra

Welcome to the Forum Investigate Truth!


Orthodox ..

If you're addressing Baha'is it makes a "difference"..whether it was Baha'u'llah or Shoghi Effendi.. Maybe you should find out more about us?

The other point I wanted to share with you relates to interpreting verses of scripture..

that inspired verses of scripture can have different levels of interpretation or meanings..so it could refer to the Jews and Gentiles or maybe even the lost tribes..? It can also refer to the spiritual people of the world awaiting the return of Christ..

Michael Sours a Baha'i writer commented:

As already noted, Bahá'u'lláh indicates that the words and verses of many prophecies can contain multiple meanings.[22] This is also true with regard to sacred narratives. In some particular instances it is clear that the multiple meanings are derived from the archetypal nature of certain historical narratives. In this context "archetype" is used to mean a symbol or Scriptural motif that signifies a recurrent spiritual condition or event, that is, it can be understood as representing some truth or occurrence that repeats itself or has some eternal meaning.[23]

Source:

Seeing With the Eye of God

InvestigateTruth

Hello, Since you have been using Verses of Bible in your discussions, I just wanted to ask the meaning of this verse in the old testimony:

13:9 And mine hand shall be upon
the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies:
they shall not be in the assembly of my people,
neither shall they be written in the writing of the
house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the
land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the
Lord GOD.

Would this mean that God shall not allow any false prophet to enter the land of Israel for ever?
Any comments is appreciated.

Orthodox

Heh, whine once again!
You have ignored the reason why I am here? I often wonder if you are blind and are having this read out to you because you seem to ignore it constantly. I DID NOT COME TO CONVERT YOU! I came for myself, like the monks who go into the monastaries and become closer to God by forsaking the world I came here for me. Not you. So don't flatter yourself any longer bahais, its pitiful that people are still saying this, especially you whine.

Oh and whine, I doubt you read it, because it wasn't from hinduism only, but from hinduism to bahai to the holy orthodoxy. God be praised. Also I don't think your trying to be any of this things. you are trying to be evasive, you don't want to deal with the hard questions and thus why you suggest I leave and the more you suggest I leave the more i will stay. So either ignore me and don't engage in debate ( a sin so horrid to you bahai) or try to encounter anything I say and actually refute it and prove bahai to me. Stop this pathetic game of "Oh your trying to convert you mean nasty man!"

Not just whine but everyone who suggests this. It is truely the most pathetic thing I have seen on any forum. Sorry for being harsh but it has to be said so you can comprehend what I say. Jesus lord and God have mercy.

ANd no Arthra, I see no reason other than to try and prove your prophet is of God to use the verse like this. Who in the history of man besides the bahai have understood this? Or does God give scripture, and hide the truth from the people? Did Jesus leave his desciples so clueless? Am I really meant to take it seriously from bahai that no one in the last 2000 years has had this scripture right? If no one has had it right, then there was no point of God inspiring it, it just lead people into the heresy of calling Jesus God (And don't twist the term God, You know what I mean when I say God, That is eternal, never ending, all powerful and etc). Jesus should have just come, repeated the ten commandments and did nothing else. So Yes the bahai explanation for scripture as a whole falls flat.

Orthodox

Also whine, your persistance in calling me Kyle shows you for who you are an antagonist, willing to stir up anyone who doesn't agree with you, so much for the old being mature. So please stop.

pheonixduprese

Hey, everyone! Let's do this! ^

Orthodox

But the consquence of that is that bahai cannot defend their views. Either way your philosophy of not debating serves to only hinder you.

pheonixduprese

Whine, I think I love you, your posts are just so... beautiful, well constructed... They make me happy to know that someone like you is out there looking out for us. :wub

Orthodox

Pheonix, you refusing to actually look at what I say in responce to her is indication you have no interest in seeking truth or independant investigation as you like to put it. It was not a beutiful post but a mishmash of misconstrewing my purposes here and trying to get me to leave. It was a pathetic post and I dare you to show me otherwise.

pheonixduprese

I think s/he's trying to make you leave because, and here's a biggie: Most of us want you to leave.

Listen to what we've been trying to say politely for your whole internment here: Nobody. Likes. You.

You've been degrading, insulting, proselytizing, and every other possible negative adjective since you've got here. Your posts are generally full of nothing but closed-minded, opinionated garbage that generally isn't relevant/helpful. You say you're Orthodox, but you've admitted that you're ignorant of the Orthodox church. You say you're here for debate, but in debate you have to actually listen to the other person's side before making an argument. In a religious forum, saying "Jesus is right because that's what I believe!" is not going to fly. Therefore, I'm. tired. of. you. I would imagine everyone else who's read or responded to your posts are, too.

whine of astonsihment

:wub back at you!
Makes me happy just to think of you mowing the lawn amidst the butterflies - if nothing else - we are both easy to please!:wink

cire perdue

I don't think it is good to try to change others so that we are comfortable. Orthodox should be welcome. If he irritates you, it is your problem, not his, so don't respond to him. One can have their say to the effect of disagreeing with him, but a Baha'i should limit their response. I have heard it said, "When I say what I think one time, that is okay. After that if I continue to have my say it is a form of attempting to control others." I think that is one of the changes in the world that this Faith will bring though I cannot summarize accurately right now. I cannot say that I have not been just like Orthodox in one area or so of my life at some time or other. Part of believing mankind is one is that under the same circumstances I would/could act the same way. Lack of understanding takes many faces.......................

whine of astonsihment

I don't think I've ever considered that verse or that possible meaning. It's a very interesting one from that perspective and certainly worth reflection.

Although I don't want to distract anyone from first commenting on this to you Invest/Truth, I'm also curious if you have any thoughts on the Book of Revelations as well?

whine of astonsihment

Fair and wise response Cire, as were Phoenix (and Orthodox) with the 'ignore or don't engage' option.
OK - I change my vote and Orthodox can stay on the island ... but I hope it's a big island .... and that help comes soon, whether by sea or sky...

Orthodox

Do i care if people don't like me here? I've never needed the affection of bahai to feel of value, but I do want you all to accept one very crucial thing. Phoenix, You and all others have told me I am proselytizing or that i came here with that intent. Don't think of yourself so high, I did not come with that purpose at all. I came for me, like monks of the church who retreat away from the world for their own benefit.

That being said I have not admitted to such a thing of being ignorant of the church, or at least not the way you seem to constrew it, I don't know all doctrines of the church but do you know everything about bahai? No you do not yet you feel compelled to talk about it and represent it, thus I can do the same without fear or condemnation from you. So please accept my presence here. Now your free to dismiss my posts as garbage, but if mine are garbage, yours are feaces.

That being said I have never said that bad line you just spouted and if I have a dare you to show me. If i come accross harsh its because I am harsh, much like how your prophet was harsh towards the Christians telling them not to ring their church bells. Perhaps he got woken up early in the morning and held a grudge.

And Cire, thank you for your responce. I do actually agree with what you said for the most part. So lets get this straight guys, i don't mind being accused of what I have done, that is being challanging and asking hard questions, But when one falsely accuses me of coming to proslytise I have to wonder if they are merely inserting their view on me instead of actually looking at what I have said 10 times before. Literally. DO I have to repeat myself? I did not come for YOU, I came for ME, perhaps later when I am more knowledgable I might come for YOU then you can call me a prosyltiser but right now, you have no right.

That being said proslytising is not evil in fact it was commanded by God himself.

Livindesert

Thanks Delmarva= The peninsula in the U.S. where Delaware, Virgina, and Maryland meet.

whine of astonsihment

Ahhhh! From a world-embracing perspective you're just on the next block! You must have a big sandbox Livin!

Livindesert

Yup I have some good beaches near by I actually came up with the moniker Livindesert when I was stationed in Iraq right next to the remians of the Sumerian city of Ur which some believe to be Ur Kasdim (Abraham's birth place) a couple of years back. It actually has a lot of meaning as I found my spiritual life in the desert. So I was living in the desert but also first really started studying the Bible and religion there.