wombatwolf

I love all the precepts of the Baha'i faith....world unity, peace. I've been practicing (undeclared) for a few months now, but...I'm just scared to actually declare anything.

For every moment I come home from the Baha'i center happy about this and all the great people there, there's another moment when an evangelical Christian tells us we're all going to hell. Maybe it's because I've only been doing this "religion" thing for the past few months but...it's scary. Honestly.

I felt more comfortable going with my friend to a mosque than to a church because I knew as soon as they find out I'm not declared they'll probably start in with the "damned for all eternity" stuff.

I guess...I mean, how do you guys get through it? How do you get through it when someone starts talking about rapture theology and how closely the Baha'i faith fits with (an interpretation) of it?

...world government, which rests on the spiritual foundations of a syncretic-messianic world religion, that will later reveal itself to be a dystopian world empire.

-From wikipedia


I've heard and studied both arguments, but there's always that voice, you know, saying "What if I'm wrong..what if I'm wrong...what if I'm wrong..."

arthra

I can answer your question from my view of course.. How did I do it..

I came from a Baptist home and began interested in religion in my teen years like a lot of people. As I began exposing my self to the various religions I noted similarities... One of the books I read back then was the Bhagavad Gita translated by Christerpher Isherwood and Prabhavananda that's still in print..any way parts of the Gita sounded a lot like the Gospel of John..particularly the 15th and 16th chapter. Anyway I tried an experiment I was at a prayer meeting and began reading a verses from the Gita. The response from others was they believed it was from the Gospel. So this started me thinking about the oneness of the great Prophets and Teachers and that there was a golden thread connecting Them..Paul Carus also collected Buddhist sayings in a book called the Gospel of Buddha ..It also became fairly clear to me that the various religions had exclusive claims for their own Saviour or Prophet excluding the others. I accepted all of Them.
Later as I studied the Faith these views of mine were confirmed and much more...

Dud the Demon

I am not a Bahai. I am not anything. When I was a child I was known as 'Dud the Demon'.
I was brought up as a christian, but never confirmed. My first wife was a Roman Catholic, my second wife is a Buddhist. One of my best friends is a devout Roman Catholic.
We have had many conversations about religion. Because she loves me, she has tried to convert me to Christianity, using among other things the writings of CS Lewis and GK Chesterton. Because I love her but don't believe in God, I have tried to point out the error of her belief, using You tube and writings of Bertrand Russell, among other things. We ended up calling each other names! We have now agreed to differ and still love each other; we talk together every day, we love each other more now I believe, our friendship can go forward now that God is no longer a subject of our conversations!
I belief your religious belief is personal to you. It's no better (or worse) than any other person's religious belief. It shouldn't matter to other people what you believe. It should matter what you do, and to some extent, say. But mostly do. You should not be in the position of having to justify your religious beliefs to your friends. Tell them you have a belief, they have a different belief; so what? It's cool. Just agree to differ and go forward together, working and talking about other things that you do agree on!
Hope this helps,
Dud (the Demon).

kavaliro

I sympathize. It was 7 years from the time I heard about the Baha'i Faith until I was convinced that the Baha'i Faith was legitimate. I didn't come from a Baptist background, but rather a United Pentecostal Church background. This should tell you what a long journey it was for me to become a Baha'i.

For me, it ultimately came down to prophesy and miracles. Ironic, isn't it, since the Baha'i Faith deprecates the importance of both?

The following is a somewhat paraphrased but nevertheless pretty accurate account.

I was going to the local Baha'i Center fairly regularly, and had a friend there. One day he said, "So... what's holding you back from declaring?" He knew I had been interested in the Faith for a long time, but it was surprising to be asked so bluntly.

"Well, I just don't know if the Baha'i Faith is real. I mean, I believe in the principles, but how do I know if it is real?"

"Ok, what would it take to convince you?"

"I guess it comes down to: how can the prophesies in the Bible can be fulfilled and the Baha'i Faith be real at the same time."

"I think I have the book for you." He leads me to the Center's library and goes to a shelf. He hands me a copy of "A Thief in the Night" by William Sears. "Read this, and let me know what you think." He insisted on buying the book for me, that it would be his honor to gift it to me.

Four days later I had scarcely slept. I was deep into the book. I was utterly convinced. The cliffnotes version is: every prophesy in the Bible about the Messiah or the return of Christ refers to the Bab or Baha'u'llah. A few exceptions to this are the ones that refer to Christ or Muhammad, but in particular, the ones which refer to "The Glory of God" are absolutely about Baha'u'llah. So many passages in the Bible which had never made sense were suddenly crystal clear. It is like when you see one of those sculptures where it's just a bunch of jumbled, weird shapes until you look at it from the right angle, and then the entire pattern appears. Well, that's what happened. I was definitely confronted with evidence I could not refute, and that I would never again be able to disbelieve in the Bab or Baha'u'llah. There was nothing left to do but become a Baha'i officially. It was still scary, the way starting any new adventure is scary. But I knew.

I also mentioned miracles. One is personal, and I don't want to share in any detail here, except to say that it was something that occurred when I was 13 and the Truth of it was revealed to me over many years, but only fully revealed that same week that I decided to become a Baha'i. It was profound to me, but not something physical.

The other is the story of the Bab. Not the well-documented miracle of His martyrdom, but the one about how His remains were transported against all odds to their final resting place. This wasn't a flashy kind of miracle like healing or walking on water. It was more like firing an arrow into orbit and having it skip off of the atmosphere a dozen times, re-enter the atmosphere on the other side of the world and finally it lands on the target with a bullseye. Impossibly improbable, yet necessary to fulfill prophesy, and so no force on earth could prevent it from occurring. The Bab was the Reality around Whom all things orbited during His life, but think! His Reality is so strong that even after His martyrdom, His purpose could not be denied!

The miracles were less important to me in choosing to become a Baha'i but the point is I did need them to be part of the overall picture, due to my Christian background. If you find you need this too, learn about the Bab. The miracles of the Baha'i Faith are subtle but profound, like hidden patterns in the weave. But the stories of the Bab are a good place to start.

I hope my story helps. (I think that may be the shortest version of it I've ever told!)

cire perdue

Fear has been said to be False Events Appearing Real. It is tragic to enforce anything with fear. I am so grateful when I see parents of any faith using positive reinforcement with their children.

I think I can see the dilemna you are in, and I think it is very wise of you to be careful. You cannot rid yourself of family and friends and should not if at all possible. I don't think it is ever meant for someone to declare and then go attempt to take on everyone in their life that will not agree with their decision. Declaring does not make you a Baha'i if you already are one.

I've been a Baha'i since 1973 and even I feel a glimmer of the fear that Wikipedia touts. Compared to a Baha'i centuries from now I will probably be seen as an anathema rather than the Baha'i I hope I am, because in their context I will have done rather badly, but it will not be easy to understand that I was a product of my time and to get out of the morass and mud was a feat they won't comprehend because things will be less chaotic.

I don't know what that future society is going to be like, but I do know that it is not fear that has pulled me from the dirt, it has been love. If I chose my destiny for all eternity then I have already chosen what feels and appears to be love to me. Fear and anger are the last resorts of the ignorant who can perceive no higher purposes or spiritual insights. In my progress there were times when I was unable to accept not doing something that has gradually become a no brainer. It is by my own changes that I confirm this Faith. I cannot confirm it for you, but I can tell you it worked for me.

There are lessons you need to learn at this time, so I think I would continue to be as considerate as you are being. I hope you have developed relationships with other Baha'is to talk about this, and if you haven't then I think that is one of the things you need to do. I hope that is possible and until you do that it is my feeling that waiting is okay. I think you need to be prepared to take care of yourself when you reveal your stand. See what others have to tell you.

Dud the Demon

Cire perdue, said

"I've been a Baha'i since 1973 and even I feel a glimmer of the fear that Wikipedia touts."

What do you feel is the nature of "the fear that Wikipedia touts"?
What fear is it u feel?

Dud

cire perdue

One can imagine the worst. However as a result of the past previous world religions, civilizations have arisen out of them in renaissances. Baghdad had street lights and plumbing before being sacked by the Huns (?Atilla?). Due to Islam being in 2 sects there was no strong centralized government to provide for military protection. One has to wonder how much further along mankind would be if Baghdad had flourished unchecked. I don't know the timeline, but maybe Europe would not have had such a Dark Age. Even so the tribes of the Arabian penisula became more civilized than they had been.

It is a fear that all women could end up in Birkas, that it is all a sham. However even that fear is useful, because it prods me to use my reason and resources to say things such as the above paragraph. I can even learn from myself.

spirit

Wombat,
Dont Rush. there is no rush to declare. The rush is in your mind. The feeling that you need to decide, you don't.
The decision to declare should be yours alone. Trust your intuition.
Before I became Bahai I studied many of the worlds religions and did find a common thread that ran through all of them. Bahai was no different. I had the freedom to discover all of this after growing up Catholic. I felt like I had been released from a locked room, free to discover that religion was one and the same thing. It was like a key that fit into the lock perfectly and opened the door of a world of knowledge and understanding.
You will never be fully 100% sure because that part of you that is rational always feels like you have to know for sure! In your heart you will know when the time is right!

cire perdue

[QUOTE] ...world government, which rests on the spiritual foundations of a syncretic messianic world religion, that will later reveal itself to be a dystopian world empire.

-From wikipedia [QUOTE]

I may not know how to search on Wikipedia, but I could not find this statement. It is definitely a worst fear/worst scenario. CP

aidan

There is merit in what you say brother but sometimes decisions are never made because i wonder "what if" for so long that I rationalise myself out of ever making a decision.I knew that there would never be a "right" time for me to declare so i just followed my gut and went with it.When I declared it was like shackles falling off and I was free to start growing into and study and love my faith

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombatwolf [T]here's always that voice, you know, saying "What if I'm wrong..what if I'm wrong...what if I'm wrong?"

The sort of quote you posted is merely the ravings of one naysayer, whom I suspect you can pretty easily ignore.

And as to any sincere doubts of your own, you can remember these points:

• ANYONE Baha'i is fully free to leave the Baha'i Faith at any time--no questions asked, and will never be condemned by us for doing so!
  
• One of the basic precepts of the Baha'i Faith is indeed Individual Investigation of Truth. This means YOU--and everybody else--have both the right and the duty to investigate the various religions, decide where the truth lies, and follow that! And NO ONE ELSE--not spouse, parents, family, friends, or clergy--has the right to interfere in this decision.
  
• Nor do you need to worry so long as your search and decision are sincere and free of prejudice ("pre-judging"): scripture states very clearly both: "Test the spirits" and "Seek, and ye shall find!"

So I put it to you that you should be in an excellent position to make for yourself the best decision possible!

Many regards, :-)

Bruce

cire perdue

...world government, which rests on the spiritual foundations of a syncretic-messianic world religion, that will later reveal itself to be a dystopian world empire. -From wikipedia


I did searches and scanned articles but did not find this quote. Can you show me where it is? It sounds Ficicchia-derived. I think we need to be aware of Sour- Grapes-ex-Baha'is. God never promised us we would get what we want by believing. I think I coin a phrase for this, how about "drive-by opinion"!

wombatwolf

It is in this article, under section 2.1


Thank you for your comments, everybody. --

cire perdue

THANK you for the reference, no wonder I couldn't find it. It was not about The Baha'i Faith but conspiracy theory, the quote is:

"They assert that people who have made a deal with the Devil to gain wealth and power have become pawns in a supernatural chess game to move humanity into accepting an utopian world government, which rests on the spiritual foundations of a syncretic-messianic world religion, that will later reveal itself to be a dystopian world empire, which imposes the imperial cult of an “Unholy Trinity” — Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet. In many contemporary Christian conspiracy theories, the False Prophet will either be the last pope of the Catholic Church (groomed and installed by an Alta Vendita or Jesuit conspiracy) or a guru from the New Age movement or even the leader of an elite fundamentalist Christian organization like the Fellowship, while the Antichrist will either be the president of the European Union or the secretary-general of the United Nations or even the caliph of a pan-Islamic state.[5][24]"

This quote is from wikipedia, "New World Order (conspiracy theory)". You know what? I have never bothered with things like this, it's too sensationalistic. I prefer to do my own thinking and not be affected by others' fears. Baha'is believe the Kingdom of God will be a true realization. The social principles of the Faith are it. It is achieved by faith and the power of belief. AA is an example of the power of belief. The changes Baha'is make in themselves is a confirmation of the Faith. It will come into being without Baha'is taking over the world. People will want it to happen. As a choice of fears I think that one is really a great choice. You know if you are sensational you get to keep making the living for which you are dependent on the donations of congregants. It is so nice to have eliminated that. Even the members of The Universal House of Justice must be self supporting. We should be so lucky if that were true of political offices.

cire perdue

What if you're right? What if you're right? What if you're right? What if you're right?

Listen to you heart!

aidan

CP does AA work for atheists? If so,how?

cire perdue

It is actually about how to live without using. They are told to consider whatever they want to be their higher power, it can be the group. I don't know if it turns them into believers, but that can keep them sober. For it is the God as we come to understand Him that is the process. One can substitute higher power in there. It is a process and since we will never understand God, we are always moving toward new understandings as we grow. I think that applies to anyone of faith. We are always coming to understand God, but never reach Him. It is better to be in that process than going the other direction.

MAWillsey

Fyi- here is the wiki link to the nwo stuff,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wor...spiracy_theory)

First, don't 'listen' to what others say, read the earlier scriptures for yourself as well as the newest scriptures/ teachings for yourself. I deal with it because I never for once believed in being sent to suffer for an eternity. I refused to believe that an all loving Creator would do that. I did readily accept that what we might suffer after death would rest in our own hands, sort of like mom saying, you can come out of your room once you learn your lesson after smacking your sister, sort of. Our punishment is of our own making and can be quickly be over once we open our hearts.
'

Fadl

Wombatwolf,

In my honest opinion, this kind of fear and paranoia is only the boogy man, but if it scares you, you need to resolve that before making your choice. There is no rush, and the only true declaration of faith is in the heart, and when that occurs, there is no choice to be made because that is what you are, and it's instant. At that point, maybe you'll want to share with others the fact of that declaration, but it's also up to you.

I can tell you that after walking this path for a lot of years, that being a Baha'i is greatest blessing of my life, and I would have become a miserable human being without the perspective this faith gives me and without the wholesomeness and protection this faith has afforded me. There is no way that so much health and goodness comes from a wicked fruit, I'm convinced of that. The faith has given me so much health and nourishment that I know it is divine and not evil. Were it otherwise, well, would a merciful God be such an unjust trixter? I don't think so.

Give yourself time, and read the writings and pray. God will let you know when it's time.