Celerity

I don't really know the proper way to approach this subject.

Case: Two young unmarried Baha'is are in a relationship. Of course, the writings state that they are not to have intercourse before marriage (yes, this thread is about that)

Before I go on, this isn't about me. It merely concerns a friend, who asked if I knew anything about the matter.

I don't. So I'm asking around.

Since it's not explicitly written about in the writings (as far as I'm aware), I realize part of the answer might be that there is no concrete answer.

In light of this, my guess is that it may be up to the couple to decide whether the following is morally worthwhile, since it's thought (as far as I know) that waiting until marriage for such activities is better for the health of the marriage itself.

I apologize, for I'm having trouble finding a non-blunt way to spill the question I'm getting to.

Baha'i-wise, and before marriage; is oral sex okay? What about handjobs? What about fingering? Can an unmarried Baha'i couple even see each other naked before getting married? Is there a line drawn at making out? How much can they touch? I don't think this isn't talked about enough.

...
Forgive me, for I actually just found a quote elsewhere that essentially answers the question. But for the sake of discussion anyway, and so that my friend can read the opinions of the wise members here, I'm submitting this thread anyway. Your time and input is greatly appreciated.

arthra

I think we can spare us the "details" and well the situation is probably not all that unique in today's society.

Questions could be asked..

Is the behaviour such that it will bring disrepute to the Cause?.. now a lot of behaviours may be going on that shall we say are under the radar..Maybe not known.. Certainly the community will be concerned if a behaviour reflects back on the Baha'is..becomes flagrant in nature.

Let me say this though and that is that even though a behaviour may be what people think is discrete it will always have effects on the people themselves..on their own spiritual progress and developement.

Also unbeknownst to them there may effects on others they are unaware of.. this means say younger sibs or friends become aware of this in some way and so the couple doing this behaviour become a poor model for others...so in so is such a good Baha'i and they can do this so it is alright for me..etc.

Sexual intimacy and sexual relations would probably cover what is described in your post.

But here as you know are some of the guidelines..

What the Bahá'ís must do is not commit adultery if they are married, and refrain from sexual intimacy before marriage. It is not a sin in the Bahá'í Faith if you do not marry, but marriage is recommended to the believers by Bahá'u'lláh.

There is no teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that "soul mates" exist. What is meant is that marriage should lead to a profound friendship of spirit, which will endure in the next world, where there is no sex, and no giving and taking in marriage; just the way we should establish with our parents, our children, our brothers and sisters and friends a deep spiritual bond which will be everlasting, and not merely physical bonds of human relationship.

(4 December 1954)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 452)

Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations. It calls for the abandonment of a frivolous conduct, with its excessive attachment to trivial and often misdirected pleasures. It requires total abstinence from all alcoholic drinks, from opium, and from similar habit-forming drugs. It condemns the prostitution of art and of literature, the practices of nudism and of companionate marriage, infidelity in marital relationships, and all manner of promiscuity, of easy familiarity, and of sexual vices....

("The Advent of Divine Justice" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 30)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 44)


146. Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage; according to the Bahá'í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse.

The Bahá'í youth should, on the one hand, be taught the lesson of self- control which, when exercised, undoubtedly has a salutary effect on the development of character and of personality in general, and on the other should be advised, nay even encouraged, to contract marriage while still young and in full possession of their physical vigour. Economic factors, no doubt, are often a serious hindrance to early marriage, but in most cases are only an excuse, and as such should not be overstressed.

(From a letter dated 13 December 1940 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer) 57

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 56)

Some additional thoughts:

Early marriage is something that is a way of allowing those with a strong sexual impulse to find fulfillment of that and it does not appear to be much of an option today.. but someday I think in a future Baha'i society early marriage along with universal education and learning a trade, profession will be attained at an earlier age. As you know the "age of maturity" is fifteen..some fifteen year olds are more mature.. In today's society they must wait for years of education to prepare them to support themselves and a family..so many may be thirty years old or even older before they can support a family.

Rani

In respect to age of marriage, I don't see why even college /university students should be prevented or discouraged from marrying at a young age. Although the bearing of children will be a result of the majority of marriages, nowhere does it say that a couple ought to try to produce children as soon as they marry. I think it really is up to the couple when they choose to have a family. I read a post by a lady on a discussion board who married her husband when they were both students and she said it was the best thing they could have done, as they were able to offer each other mutual support, and they were not distracted by the quest for 'romance' any longer, in that it was already satisfied.

There are many baha'i couples who are financially able to rear offspring but still delay it for whatever reason. It's a personal thing.
And many students are not financially dependent on their parents any longer, but may depend on a student allowance or on part-time jobs. Just a thought. At least as adults I think they have the right to make this choice, dependent on the approval of their parents of course!

Rani

How romantic it seems now -the time in which my parents were young adults. For I know at the least that my mother was a virgin when she married, (maybe my father too but I wouldn't know), yet they were not 'religious' in the slightest!

Such was the culture of the time that it would have been shameful for a woman (most women) to have fallen pregnant outside of wedlock. It sure would be easier for the young and the single to have a return to these values.

arthra

Rani wrote:

And many students are not financially dependent on their parents any longer, but may depend on a student allowance or on part-time jobs.

Hmmm... "...many students are not financially dependent". If only it was so...Many nowadays haven't worked for a long time and are more dependent I'm afraid...Consider the rising costs of education and debt incurred..

LordOfGoblins

No, I dont think those things are ok. You have to realise that all those things are just leading down the same path. Emphasis is on purity and not on trying to 'get around' the laws by finding substitutes. If you understand the idea of emphasis and purity then these sorts of things will make more sense.

Rani

Naturally I think, economic circumstances and policies will vary greatly from country to country, from family to family, and from individual to individual.

I just remember during my university time, a lot of students would share house with one or two other students. If instead of sharing house with another student, they shared it with their spouse.. Well, I'm not sure I know of any spiritual reason why this could not happen.

Sorry if I've gone off topic. >>

cire perdue

This is actually not for individuals to be involved in. We need to love each other and stay out of each other's business. There is no question about what is appropriate, but I question anyone except the individuals involved dealing with it. If someone who knows the couple is telling you, then that person is in error and you for listening. Either someone needs to mind their own business or it needs to go to an Assembly if serious enough, this is not for individuals to be involved in. Situations that are "so and so told me that so and so is doing such, is that okay for Baha'is?" need to be nipped in the bud. We are not here to police each other. The real question here is NOT about what is appropriate, but about anyone being involved in someone else's business. Also I don't think we are supposed to report people to an LSA either for others' lapses, only if the Faith's reputation is involved, we don't count coup on each other. The error seems to be in the hands of anyone who picked it up rather than passing it by, and especially by telling anyone else about it.

Celerity

Thanks for the warning, but this isn't the kind of "he-said she-said" issue you have described. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear from my original post.

LordOfGoblins

Yah maybe.
However at some point we have to answer these questions if people want to know, no matter how odd and obvious or even inappropriate they might seem. I think the answers are obvious anyway. The whole point is to be chaste and that involves all expressions of teh sex impulse outside marraige, more or less as a round figure.
Of course noone can avoid those 'dreams' but we have a free will when we are awake..

Eftekhar Be Khoda

Agewise, my understanding was so long as both parties were considered sane adults, then there shouldn't be a problem. If I remember right, the age of adulthood is 15, so over 15 should be OK.

I tend to think that in reguards to the premarital activities, one should err on the side of caution -- mostly because I've known several people who got pregnaent waaay too young and daddy was pretty well gone. It's very hard to turn off hormones once the juices flow. Passion is not to be toyed with.

Celerity

This is the quote I had found just after finishing the post.

Guardian's explanations of "Easy Familiarity"

cire perdue

It is difficult for me to see that someone could have questions about what is sexual or not in regards to Baha'i standards. However sexualness has gotten into everything. Sex can become the most important thing in one's life and when that is true then there are equally or more important things that will no longer get attention. Due to the nature of passion once given into, it can be really hard to stop, so that the need to practice chastity is not about sex is bad, it is really about sex is good and naturally one wants more. The Baha'i perspective is that it has a place and time and that is in marriage.

Baha'is believe that how a couple fits together is the most important basis for marriage. I think our culture knows from experience by now that it is easier to find sexual fits than it is to find a long term relationship fit. On the other hand there are people who meet all the Baha'i teachings and still a marraige may not work out. Our guidance is weighted on building a relationship first, then with the bond of marriage new intimacy will add to and strengthen a couple. That pair is then better able to tackle life tasks.

This is so contrary to the practice of the current world that it must seem like the appearance of an extraterristrial. It is believed wholeheartedly that there is more happiness attained by people that will do this, than by becoming sexually experienced in multiple relationships before settling down with someone for instance. It is more likely that practicing sex casually may dull the ability to become truly intimate with someone which is actually the most important bond that there is, not sex. It can become easier to have sex with a stranger than to talk about our greatest fears and insecurities. This Faith is simply trying to teach us to keep it in perspective for the purpose of happiness, not in an attempt to frighten us into obedience, shame, or punish us.