sohebbasharat

Can someone provide me references from Bahaullah's writings in which he claims to be the coming of Messiah (jesus), Shah Bahram and other promised ones.?
I would be thankful if some1 replies urgently.
THANX

cire perdue

I am not great at searches, but came up with the below. I will post after this and give you a link to a library that allows you to search. Each person who searches will likely come up with something different. I used Bahram as a search and then Messiah. IF Shoghi Effendi made a statement it is the same as if Baha'u'llah did. One will eventually find more than one reference that will back up any statements made by The Guardian. I am not sure you will find "I am..." statements as you ask for, because Baha'u'llah's Writings are of God speaking and show that station in many ways. It is a matter of the ability to perceive, as in Christ's time would be "the ear to hear"

Concerning the uniqueness of Bahá’u’lláh’s station and the greatness of His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the “Day of God”, found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Bahá’u’lláh: To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father", the "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father"; to Shí'ah Islam the return of the Imam Husayn; to Sunni
Islam the descent of the "Spirit of God" (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Shah-Bahram; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 234)

He alone is meant by the prophecy attributed to Gautama Buddha Himself, that "a Buddha named Maitreye, the Buddha of universal fellowship" should, in the fullness of time, arise and reveal "His boundless glory." To Him the Bhagavad- Gita of the Hindus had referred as the "Most Great Spirit," the "Tenth Avatar," the "Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna."("God Passes By", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), pp. 94-95)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 18)



Bahá'u'lláh's mission in the world is to bring about Unity --
Unity of all mankind in and through God. He says: -- "Of the
Tree of Knowledge the All-glorious fruit is this exalted word:
Of one Tree are all ye the fruits and of one Bough the leaves.
Let not man glory in this that he loves his country, but let him
rather glory in this that he loves his kind."
Previous Prophets have heralded an age of peace on earth,
goodwill among men, and have given Their lives to hasten its
advent, but each and all of Them have plainly declared that
this blessed consummation would be reached only after the
"Coming of the Lord" in the latter days, when the wicked
would be judged and righteous rewarded.
Zoroaster foretold three thousand years of conflict before
the advent of Shah Bahram, the world-savior, Who would
overcome Ahrman the spirit of evil, and establish a reign of
righteousness and peace.

(Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 46)

cire perdue

Baha'i Reference Library

This is an official website. Other sites may have other works that are not always authenticated which means go by the dictionary and scholar definition of that word, authentic. Older publications that were adequate at the time due to circumstances and a very small Baha'i population in the USA have been put to the side when more authenticity became available. Early American believers and any but the Persian Community had very, very few actual Writings. It resembled early Christianity which was more oral than we can possibly grasp which means the Holy Spirit was nevertheless imparted to others. Though not giving a number, Rodney Stark in his book, THE RISE OF CHRITIANITY, an incredible analysis of early Christianity with sociological tools, says that the number of Christians when Christ died were much lower than anyone has thought. He also shows using a growth model that by the time the first Constantine became Christian that there were either 30 or 60 (my memory lapse on the figure) million Christians in the empire and miraculous conversions of thousands at a time likely did not happen, but steady growth did happen. Baha'is don't look at numbers so much for that reason.

InvestigateTruth

There are many Tablets that Baha'u'llah refered to Himself as the Promissed One. among those are the Tablets to the Kings, the Tablet to Christians (The Most Holy Tablet), and also "The Tabernacle of Unity" which is addressed to the Zorestarians.





"Ye are but vassals, O Kings of the earth! He Who is the King of kings hath appeared, arrayed
in His most wondrous glory, and is summoning you unto Himself, the Help in Peril, the SelfSubsisting.
Take heed lest pride deter you from recognizing the Source of Revelation; lest the
things of this world shut you out as by a veil from Him Who is the Creator of heaven. Arise,
and serve Him Who is the Desire of all nations, Who hath created you through a word from
Him, and ordained you to be, for all time, the emblems of His sovereignty. "
SUMMONS TO THE KINGS AND RULERS OF THE WORLD


" He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His
utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it.
The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth
out: `Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!', whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and
the Burning Bush calleth aloud: `He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent
majesty.' Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom
is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He
said: `Ye cannot bear it now.' And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour
had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O
followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better
is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The
Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the
favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of
Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every
fair-minded and understanding soul. " The Most Holy Tablet

kavaliro

True in the context of this topic. Not true in an all-encompassing sense. I have no doubt that Cire Perdue understands this and probably considered it implied; I'm only mentioning it so that a new Baha'i won't get confused by the statement when they read through the forum.

From letters written on behalf of the Guardian by his secretary:

Here is the source.

sohebbasharat

Thanx All,
cire perdue
Can u plz clarify further?
With due respect This may be your concept, but I cannot fathom that when a messenger comes , he has to leave such important and basic issues like the nature of his claim and the station of his ministry to be clarified by some other people (even if they are Guardian or someone else). A messenger knows what his station is and he should point out this in clear terms for the people to understand. Like in the present age almost all major religions are waiting for a promised one but i cannot believe that God sends that person and he does not claim to be those awaited holy personages. I hope you understand my problem so plz provide some writings of Bahaullah claiming to be the arrival of the promised ones. May God Bless You.
Is this excerpt from Aqdas? I could not find it in the edition which I have because it has 137 pages, can u plz give the verse number?
Also a Question arose from this excerpt , it is written that Bahaullah was the coming of "Everlasting Father" as foretold by Jesus. As my understanding is there are two prophecies made by Jesus in bible.
1. Coming of a Father, a person who would be accompanied by 10,000 companions near Faran, and Muslims believe this to be the prophecy about Muhammad (PBUH).
2. Prophecy of Jesus's Second Coming.
Can u plz tell which one of these do Bahais believe to be fulfilled by Bahaullah?
This is also written in the post by InvestigateTruthTo InvestigateTruth, u wrote
As I have clarified in the beginning, this is not the most relevant answer to my quest. Anyway THANX for the reply

InvestigateTruth

you are welcome. here is another one:

"O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me." Gleansing from the writings of Baha'u'llah

arthra

Soheb wrote concerning the quote:

Quote:

Concerning the uniqueness of Bahá’u’lláh’s station and the greatness of His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the “Day of God”, found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Bahá’u’lláh: To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father", the "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father"; to Shí'ah Islam the return of the Imam Husayn; to Sunni Islam the descent of the "Spirit of God" (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Shah-Bahram; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 234)

Is this excerpt from Aqdas? I could not find it in the edition which I have because it has 137 pages, can u plz give the verse number?

.................................................. ............................................

That is a explanatory note to a passage of the text "verily there is no other God besides Me" and again it relates to the nature of the "Manifestation of God".

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father", the "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father"; to Shí'ah Islam the return of the Imam Husayn; to Sunni Islam the descent of the "Spirit of God" (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Shah-Bahram; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

They are the words of Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith who was the designated Interpreter of the Writings.

The text of the Aqdas with notes, questions and answers was published in 1992 with 296 pages and is available online at

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas

also at

Kitáb-i-Aqdas

You can order the Kitab-i-Aqdas in Arabic at

ARA: Kitab-i-Aqdas w/Arabic Notes

In English at

Kitab-i-Aqdas (AUSTRALIA) HC

arthra

Soheb wrote above:

With due respect This may be your concept, but I cannot fathom that when a messenger comes , he has to leave such important and basic issues like the nature of his claim and the station of his ministry to be clarified by some other people (even if they are Guardian or someone else). A messenger knows what his station is and he should point out this in clear terms for the people to understand. Like in the present age almost all major religions are waiting for a promised one but i cannot believe that God sends that person and he does not claim to be those awaited holy personages. I hope you understand my problem so plz provide some writings of Bahaullah claiming to be the arrival of the promised ones. May God Bless You.

My reply:

You may not understand this but when the Aqdas was revealed around 1871 in Akka by Baha'u'llah it was not widely known.. that is the text itself was not widely distributed until much later...moreover, the laws of the Aqdas were not fully enforced and are still not enforced in large part in various parts of the world..many are for the future and some parts are for the Universal House of Justice to decide how they will be implemented.

After the Ascension of Baha'u'llah in 1892, His eldest Son was designated as Interpreter and successor.. With the ascension of Abdul-Baha in 1921 in His Will and Testament Shoghi Effendi was designated Interpreter.

The Baha'i Cause has kept it's unity and integrity by what we call the Covenant through following the Will and Testament of Baha'u'llah and His Son Abdul-Baha.

For me the revelation of Baha'u'llah was announced by Him in these terms when He was on "death row" in the Siyah Chal pit in 1853:

O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list.

~ Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 98

sohebbasharat

To InvestigateTruth
U wrote:Thank U very much, My purpose is somewhat fulfilled by this quote.
Can you please introduce me to gleanings. It is like excerpts from Bahaullah's writings? If so, then how does one know the original Bahaullah writing from which it has been taken? Like in this case........ Waiting for ur reply.

I would love if u can find other references too......

sohebbasharat

Thanx arthra
U said: I can understand that it may take time for the teachings of a prophet to be implemented on a wide scale but what i cannot understand is why was Aqdas not widely circulated in Bahaullah's own lifetime. If we look at Muhammad (pbuh) people as far as from afghanistan recieved his message during his lifetime. And now (i mean in 19th century) when press and publications were almost becoming a norm why could not Aqdas and other writings be made known to a wider public. As I know Aqdas itself was first published near the end of Bahaullah's life (in 1892 perhaps?)

The reason prophets make their claims and teachings widely known is a very logical one, so that a wider audience stands as a testimony to there teachings but more importantly people from a wider spectrum can understand the teachings and clear their queries from the supreme teacher himself , because the way the person who gets revelation understands the true meanings nobody else can, whoever they are. Like in Islam, the main corpus of teachings is Quran,and Ahadis, all other explanations etc come at a lower level. One can get true guidance from these two sources. But it seems to me that in the Baha'i Faith, reliance on explanations by AbdulBaha and Shoghi Afandi is far greater than the original writings of Bahaullah. Plz correct me if i am wrong. And dont take my comment to be rude in any sense, i sincerely want to clarify my understanding.
May God Bless us All, Amen

cire perdue

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

This is a link to Gleanings and other Writings of Baha'u'llah and the Faith. I think it is important for you to look for things also. Who knows what you might find that would mean a great deal more to you than anyone else could figure....

sohebbasharat

Thanx cire perdue

U said:
Thank you, actually i have Gleanings with me along with other Bahai books. I have read mainly Aqdas and Iqan (and very little Bayan also) uptil now. Im a keen student of the Baha'i Faith although I am not a Bahai myself.

I agree with you that self study is the best approach and I usually follow it myself, but actually I am having some discussion with someone and I needed clarification of some Bahai beliefs and also some references in somewhat urgency and as I have not vast knowledge of the your faith (uptil now), so I thought I should get some help.

Whatever. Thanx for the advice and I will continue my self-study of ur faith.

May Allah Guide us All, Amen

cire perdue

I have sincere hope for your search. From this Forum I have become aware that we are not able to answer every question, especially those who do not want answers. I am still adjusting to the world of the internet and the Baha'i Faith. I have been amazed several times this week. Glad to have you. At my age I don't anticipate learning Arabic or Persian!

aidan

Dear friend Soha,you are in error if you feel that the writings of Abdulbaha and Shogi Effendi carry greater importance than the words of Baha'u'llah.He is the manifestation of God and no words are stronger than his.This is a sure and certain fact

sohebbasharat

To aidanThank u for the clarification

Just for the record, my name is Sohaib. :-)

I understand, that for u the word of Bahaullah carries the greatest importance. U can call it a coincidence but it seemed to me that i was reading more quotes from AbdulBaha and Shoghi Affendi (posted on different threads).
I stand corrected.

I would be thankful if some1 answers my queries.

Is there some1 on the forum from a Muslim background? Perhaps it would be easier for him to understand me (and viceversa)

InvestigateTruth

Gleanings are selected writings of Baha'u'llah.
The original Writings of Baha'u'llah are in Persian and Arabic.
you can find many of His original writings from:

Baha'i Reference Library

in order to find the original of a translated writing, it would take sometime to research it. But the Books and Tablets of Baha'u'llah has names, some of them similar to the Surahs of Quran. Based on the names of tablets, or Books, you can find the originals.

I have some Moslem background from both parant's side, because my grandfather was born in a Moslem family. But I was born in a Baha'i Family. Though I know persian and somewhat Arabic.

arthra

Soheb wrote:

I can understand that it may take time for the teachings of a prophet to be implemented on a wide scale but what i cannot understand is why was Aqdas not widely circulated in Bahaullah's own lifetime. If we look at Muhammad (pbuh) people as far as from afghanistan recieved his message during his lifetime. And now (i mean in 19th century) when press and publications were almost becoming a norm why could not Aqdas and other writings be made known to a wider public. As I know Aqdas itself was first published near the end of Bahaullah's life (in 1892 perhaps?)

The Aqdas is our book of laws..As I explained above not all of these laws were enforced at the time or known:

Some years after the revelation of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas,
Bahá'u'lláh had manuscript copies sent to Bahá'ís in Iran,
and in the year 1308 A.H. (1890-91 A.D.), towards the end
of His life, He arranged for the publication of the original
Arabic text of the Book in Bombay.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 9)

Baha'u'llah was a Prisoner and in exile most of His life..contrary to Prophet Muhammad Who had after the Hijra His own domain.

Here is what Shoghi Effendi described in "God Passes By":

"Revealed soon after Bahá'u'lláh had been transferred to
the house of Udi Khammar (circa 1873), at a time when He
was still encompassed by the tribulations that had afflicted
Him, through the acts committed by His enemies and the
professed adherents of His Faith, this Book, this treasury
enshrining the priceless gems of His Revelation, stands out,
by virtue of the principles it inculcates, the administrative
institutions it ordains and the function with which it invests
the appointed Successor of its Author, unique and
incomparable among the world's sacred Scriptures. For,
unlike the Old Testament and the Holy Books which
preceded it, in which the actual precepts uttered by the
Prophet Himself are non-existent; unlike the Gospels, in
which the few sayings attributed to Jesus Christ afford no
clear guidance regarding the future administration of the
affairs of His Faith; unlike even the Qur'án which, though
explicit in the laws and ordinances formulated by the
Apostle of God, is silent on the all-important subject of the
succession, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, revealed from first to last by
the Author of the Dispensation Himself, not only preserves
for posterity the basic laws and ordinances on which the
fabric of His future World Order must rest, but ordains, in
addition to the function of interpretation which it confers
upon His Successor, the necessary institutions through
which the integrity and unity of His Faith can alone be
safeguarded."

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 12-13)

Soheb:

The reason prophets make their claims and teachings widely known is a very logical one, so that a wider audience stands as a testimony to there teachings but more importantly people from a wider spectrum can understand the teachings and clear their queries from the supreme teacher himself , because the way the person who gets revelation understands the true meanings nobody else can, whoever they are. Like in Islam, the main corpus of teachings is Quran,and Ahadis, all other explanations etc come at a lower level. One can get true guidance from these two sources. But it seems to me that in the Baha'i Faith, reliance on explanations by AbdulBaha and Shoghi Afandi is far greater than the original writings of Bahaullah. Plz correct me if i am wrong. And dont take my comment to be rude in any sense,

Yes.. when you understand the historical circumstances noted above I think it makes sense.. One thing you should be aware of is that Baha'is are not so much governed by Hadiths.. hear-say traditions as we have the original documents sealed by the Central Figures of the Faith.

cire perdue

I found it interesting that the writings of Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi made such an impression on you. To Baha'is they are just as important as Baha'u'llah's Writings. Their works are the fruits of Baha'u'llah. Abdul'baha spent his entire life in service to Baha'u'llah and was the amanuensis of his Father. Shoghi Effendi was Abdul'baha's grandson who was chanted to in his cradle by the person who calls Moslems to prayer and was taught English from an early age and whose life was dedicated to the Faith and who completed and raised the firsts of the many edifaces that now grace Mt. Carmel. He was "THE PRICELESS PEARL" of the book of the same name.

Critical people often separate Baha'u'llah's Writings from Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi, wanting to payattention only to Baha'u'llah. However that is like eating cake with no icing. Their work is so very important for us to understand Baha'u'llah's world message and how it will progress and affect the world over time. I applaud your attaching high importance to their work, you understand something that often troubles others. Without these figures of central importance would be stones without mortar or gems without settings.

sohebbasharat

to InvestigateTruth
Thank U
I have many of Bahaullah's original writings with me. Actually i was trying to ask if there is some addendum or index to Gleanings, telling the original references of the excerpts present in it. Like if i read a paragraph from Gleanings and then i want to read it (the complete topic) from the original source (like if it is from Iqan for example), how can i find the reference.

Just out of curiosity, ur grandfather who was Muslim, he was from which country?

sohebbasharat

to arthra

OK. I understand ur view. Although i still think that prophet teaches in 2 ways:
1.By words
2. By actions

Words alone might not be sufficient in the absence of a group f followers in whom the prophet establishes his teachings by the perfect model of his actions. (The Sahaba or Companions of a prophet). So if the prophet himself does not know the interpretation and implementation of his teachings, how can he teach by his actions?This is what we see in Moses, Jesus, Mohammad (and all of them suffered severe persecution but God enabled them to fulfill their prophetic duties through words and actions both ). And that is what I expect in any future manifestation.

i may be wrong, but this is my perception from my study of religious history.

cire perdue

Baha'is understand that the first proof of the Prophet is His person and upon His death, then it is His Words. Those Writings contain the Holy Spirit and that is what new civilizations are inspired by. That is how we may determine our paths. Baha'u'llah was considered to have innate knowledge and not acquired knowledge.

arthra

Soheb wrote:

So if the prophet himself does not know the interpretation and implementation of his teachings, how can he teach by his actions?

The Prophet knows very well what His own Interpretation is..

It's for us.. The interpretations are for us...based on questions posed by Baha'is in later years.

Hope you understand this..

Who better to explain the Message than His appointed Interpreter?

InvestigateTruth

There is a list of the original sources of Gleanings:

Sources of Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So, in the gleanings, there are 166 seleccted writings from various Books and Tablets, and each selected writing is numbered using roman numbering. The last one is CLXV, which is 166. In the link above, it has the reference based on the numberings.

Also, you can know about Gleanings, and how it was put together from:

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have Irani background.

arthra

I appreciated your posting that material Investigate Truth!

cire perdue

Anytime in the Writings that we see God rebuking His Messenger, it is us who are being addressed, but in His mercy, we are not addressed.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohebbasharat I have Gleanings with me along with other Bahai books. I have read mainly Aqdas and Iqan (and very little Bayan also) uptil now.

If I may make a humble suggestion, you should defnitely endeavor to read The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan) and Some Answered Questions, both of which I think you'll find especially interesting and informative!

Regards, :-)

Bruce