gusash

Now let me make this clear first up. I know that we are not meant to try and visualise Him. I have never actively "tried to" except before I was a Baha'i. My mother always taught me (she's not nor ever was a Baha'i) that the Creator wouldn't take on a human form. And that much, I think is pretty clear. I don't need to paste the quotes in, I'm sure you've all read them. Idle fantasy, attempting to understand The Most High, etc, not gonna happen. But I still can't help visualising this little cloud of energy whenever I say God or when I offer devotional prayer etc. And it's driving me nuts. I'm trying to just visualise nothing, but I need something. And before you suggest it, I have tried directing the prayer to Baha'u'llah and or Abdul-Baha, but because I have never seen Baha'u'llah, I always imagine a man I have never seen. Which is also a problem for me. I accidentally try and visualise the Prophets, which means I see them as having different stations, which is untrue. For example, am currently trying to see the Bab and Baha'u'llah as equal in the station, but different in their revelation. But I am currently accidentally seeing the Bab and His quotes as more reliable. Please don't take this stuff as blashphemy, I know it's not true, and I'm trying to overcome it. I need some other method which doesn't involve visualising Baha'u'llah or The Master. And certainly not trying to visualise God because then I just see the cloud of unconscious energy which is pure blasphemy.

Please help. I wanna be Baha'i, and see the Prophets as equal. But I keep thinking, why are the Bab's and Jesus's Texts more sort of nice sounding, where as Baha'u'llahs quotes come off as purely authoritive to me, which also makes it hard for me to see God as loving me.

Sorry to bother you all yet again with my issues.

arthra

! always imagine a man I have never seen. Which is also a problem for me. I accidentally try and visualise the Prophets, which means I see them as having different stations, which is untrue. For example, am currently trying to see the Bab and Baha'u'llah as equal in the station, but different in their revelation. But I am currently accidentally seeing the Bab and His quotes as more reliable. Please don't take this stuff as blashphemy, I know it's not true, and I'm trying to overcome it. I need some other method which doesn't involve visualising Baha'u'llah or The Master. And certainly not trying to visualise God because then I just see the cloud of unconscious energy which is pure blasphemy.

Please help. I wanna be Baha'i, and see the Prophets as equal. But I keep thinking, why are the Bab's and Jesus's Texts more sort of nice sounding, where as Baha'u'llahs quotes come off as purely authoritive to me, which also makes it hard for me to see God as loving me.

Thanks for your fine post and sharing your thoughts!

Being new to the Faith it would seem to me that deepening is of course a priority for you..

that being the case

(1) for devotional readings I'd recommend Hidden Words.. as these are regarded as the spiritual essence of what the Prophets have taught in the past..

(2) also read more about the lives of the Manifestations in such books as Balyuzi's Baha'u'llah The King of Glory..Hasan Balyuzi was a descendent of the family of the Bab, an Afnan, and also a Hand of the Cause of God.

(3) The Ruhi books are also a good way to introduce yourself to basic Baha'i concepts particularly Book 4.

(4) Another suggestion would be to have regular times of prayer and deepening every day morning and evening..immerse yourself in the ocean of His words..If you haven't done so already obtain the new Prayer Book published by the Australian Baha'i community.

cire perdue

Hey! We start where we are, criticizing it is NOT going to make it go away. You sound normal to me. I have seen the best photograph of Baha'u'llah and have a pretty good memory for it, but when I pray I tend to think of concepts like the attributes. I try to project my feelings outward. I am not sure you are doing anything "WRONG". Baha'u'llah may be more authoratative, read about Abdul'baha and the early believers when you want to see the love. It is very apparent there.

People are visual, auditory, and kinesthetic learners. I hope you are not trying to make your type into something else!!! I highly reccommend Juliet Thompson's diary, but I don't know if it is online. PORTALS TO FREEDOM is great as well. One thing the books by the early believers is they show accepting the Faith AS A PROCESS. I don't remember anyone describing instant acceptance, but a process of becoming firm.

I just read I, MARY MAGDALENE by Juliet Thompson and to me it is more about meeting Abdul'baha, however that's me, and I would like to find out more what was said about the book. The spirit of the book is very loving.

"Gee, I don't think you are being hard enough on yourself, you are not doing it right. You should know that already. Can't you figure it out for yourself...."
Now do you feel better? The above in quote is all the wrong things to say to yourself. Baha'i life IS a process, a lifelong process.

cire perdue

Diary of Juliet Thompson: Chapter 1

Even the introduction is lovely!

cire perdue

"Mr Kinney had asked a question the answer to which I must keep. "Some of the Theosophists claim that Christ was taught by the Súfís. How are we to reply?"

Mírzá Asadu'lláh smiled. "Could the sun be lighted from a lamp?..." "

I am rereading this and it is wonderful!

kavaliro

I tend not to worry about visualization of a concept of God, and instead focus on the Qiblih. This gives me a focal point to concentrate on. I usually think of light shining out from the Qiblih in all directions.

aidan

Dear Gusash,you are your own harshest critic using such words as "blasphemy".Give yourself a break,you are not blaspheming.If you have a mental picture of an enegy cloud when praying,this has been sent to you by God.You've said you need a visualisation and God has sent this image to you as it is completely impossible for us to know His likeness.Lighten up Gusash and enjoy your prayer life

Pollwr

For me, given that God is the Most Great and Unknowable, whenever I envisage something or somone great or wonderful, I say to myself - you see how wonderful this image is, well God is Greater. In mathematics, I don't think we would discuss infinity and infinite numbers if we didn't first visualize the really big ones. Maybe in order to understand that there is an inconceiveably Great Being we need to explore how great a being we can conceive!

MAWillsey

[QUOTE=gusash;25048]Now let me make this clear first up. I know that we are not meant to try and visualise Him. I have never actively "tried to" except before I was a Baha'i. My mother always taught me (she's not nor ever was a Baha'i) that the Creator wouldn't take on a human form. And that much, I think is pretty clear. I don't need to paste the quotes in, I'm sure you've all read them. Idle fantasy, attempting to understand The Most High, etc, not gonna happen. But I still can't help visualising this little cloud of energy whenever I say God or when I offer devotional prayer etc. And it's driving me nuts. I'm trying to just visualise nothing, but I need something. And before you suggest it, I have tried directing the prayer to Baha'u'llah and or Abdul-Baha, but because I have never seen Baha'u'llah, I always imagine a man I have never seen. Which is also a problem for me. I accidentally try and visualise the Prophets, which means I see them as having different stations, which is untrue. For example, am currently trying to see the Bab and Baha'u'llah as equal in the station, but different in their revelation. But I am currently accidentally seeing the Bab and His quotes as more reliable. Please don't take this stuff as blashphemy, I know it's not true, and I'm trying to overcome it. I need some other method which doesn't involve visualising Baha'u'llah or The Master. And certainly not trying to visualise God because then I just see the cloud of unconscious energy which is pure blasphemy.

Please help. I wanna be Baha'i, and see the Prophets as equal. But I keep thinking, why are the Bab's and Jesus's Texts more sort of nice sounding, where as Baha'u'llahs quotes come off as purely authoritive to me, which also makes it hard for me to see God as loving me.

Sorry to bother you all yet again with my issues.[/QUOT

Be an open, honest, caring, loving person who cares for everyone including caring for yourself. If you make mistakes, correct them and ask forgiveness. Live you life in a mature, healthy manner, step up to responsibilties. Be a happy soul. Do all this and you have nothing to worry about.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by gusash [W]hy are the Bab's and Jesus's Texts more sort of nice sounding, where as Baha'u'llahs quotes come off as purely authoritive to me, which also makes it hard for me to see God as loving me?

If you think that, then perhaps you need to read other volumes of the Baha'i Writings: I'm sure that in many of them, you'll find Baha'u'llah's texts very attractive and inspirational!

(As to visualizing God, you should bear in mind that according to Baha'i teachings, visualizing God--let alone comprehending Him!--is simply impossible for us. That's why one of our titles for God is the Unknowable Essence.)

Peace, :-)

Bruce

LordOfGoblins

>To Gusash<
I agree with what Bruce said above but just to add my own understanding..
Baha'u'lah has his own style. Every prophet comes giving a certain revelation from God and reflecting more attributes to man in their own intensity. I think Baha'u'lah reflects more power in his tones because of the nature of his revelation revealing the name of glory to mankind. You dont necessarily have to 'like' or 'find pretty' everything that Baha'u'llah says, I dont think that is the point. The point is to know that what he says comes from a different place, and to recognise who he claims to be. Also there is something else. Baha'u'llah was made to wear great burdens in his life and that reflected into his writing too. That is why he talks alot how he suffered. Even if he were to recount more of his sufferings his writings would probably sound morbid so he doesnt. You have to take this sort of thing into consideration.
Just my opinion.

aidan

What is the Qiblih?

arthra

Qiblih is where we turn when reciting the obligatory prayer(s).... that is Bahji the Haram-i-Aqdas, the Shrine of Baha'u'llah:

"He would advise you to only use the short midday Obligatory Prayer. This has no genuflections and only requires that when saying it the believer turn his face towards Akka where Bahá'u'lláh is buried. This is a physical symbol of an inner reality, just as the plant stretches out to the sunlight-- from which it receives life and growth--so we turn our hearts to the Manifestation of God, Bahá'u'lláh, when we pray; and we turn our faces, during this short prayer, to where His dust lies on this earth as a symbol of the inner act...

From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, June 24, 1949: Spiritual Foundations: Prayer, Meditation, and the Devotional Attitude, op. cit., in Lights of Guidance, no. 1523

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan What is the Qiblih?

And for the record, as Art indicated but didn't locate specifically, Bahji is just north of Akka, Israel.

Regards, :-)

Bruce

BlinkeyBill

Just for me, but I like to visualise the doors leading to the tomb of Baha'u'llah.
Or occasionally the Tomb of the Bab.
As I say this works for me.

Fadl

I thinking having a problem visualizing God is a much smaller problem than not having a problem visualizing God, since visualizing God would be pure error.

Yeshua

Its very simple for me: I visualize Jesus Generally the "archetypical" picture like the one on the Turin Shroud.

Jesus is God on earth for me, so to see him is to see God.

To try and visualize God as pure "spirit" would be impossible however, since we cannot comprehend God. He is, after all, in his Essence Unknowable, Unathomable and posseses no form at all.

That is why Saint Augustine said:


"If you comprehend, it is not God"

- St. Augustine, Sermon 52, 16

gusash

Is visuallising Jesus okay in the Baha'i Faith? Is visuallising any of the Manifestations okay? I still don't want to think of them as having different stations, which tends to happen to me. Fadl, I entirely agree. But prayer is still difficult for me, trying to direct it.

Rani

I don't see why we can't 'visualise' God in spiritual terms. Abdu'l-Baha talks of God as our Father in some passages; and the prayers describe Him by His attributes. -Loving , Merciful, Forgiving..
I have never heard that to do so is somehow wrong.

cire perdue

I continue to feel that you are too hard on yourself. I sang prayers today and that I usually do not do. A Baha'i on Pilgrimage sang her prayers all the time and they were different each time. I am capable of singing/chanting our prayers in English. I am so, so grateful for that ability. However it took a long time. I am actually happy about your displeasure about your praying, it means you want to progress, and have not doubt that you will. Find a way to laugh about something and remember God is laughing with you. Love is a smile and laughter, not rigidity and control. We must laugh also. Laugh in the face of death and all the fear that is freshly trawled daily by our news media. Thank God the computer news has a lot of animal stories that are quite touching.I think the growing interest in animals is a sign of growing spritual capacity.

gusash

I do want to keep more humour involved as well, because humour has been really, the core element, to what makes me less depressed in times of depression. (can't say I actually have depression, the doctors have repeatedly refused to give me drugs.. whatever) When I think of Baha'u'llah, I often do think of rigidity, and when I think of religion in general, including the Faith, I do sometimes think of control. When I am hanging around the wrong people, listening to the wrong music, whatever, it all becomes black and white, and I only see boundaries, and rules to break. I truly hate being a teenager sometimes... (But I don't wanna grow up and pay taxes.. Oh the conflicting emotion..) But surely Baha'u'llah had a sense of humour. And surely God does..?

gusash

I just googled Baha'u'llahs sense of humour and found a few examples of His wit.

"Then Shamsí Bey paid an official call and declared on behalf of the government: "You are ordered to Edirne."

Bahá'u'lláh categorically stated: "We refuse."

After Shamsí Bey had gone, Bahá'u'lláh came out and said to the friends, "Be confident. Nothing bad will happen." Smiling, He added: "And anyway, what could be the harm of it if I should give them two or three of you no-goods to put to death?" And then He left. "

I found that at My Memories of Baha'u'llah

Firstly, is that a legitimate source? And secondly, Baha'u'llah wouldn't have actually let any of His followers/friends be put to death would he?

cire perdue

Baha'u'llah kept some of the worst people in the Faith close to Him to manage them. He could have done it if He wanted too, but it was actually like a double entendre, because they were pretty bad people. Shoghi Effendi was a prankster as a child. I just read some story about a hostess who wanted the Master to impress the group of visitors and He talked about only happy things. I can see how it would be more important at times just to be moderate, but happy and not overpowering with the power of God.

gusash

Why were they even in the Faith if they were bad people? Were they covenant-breakers?
Interesting to hear that The Guardian was a prankster. I don't know what to think of that Funny though, and I am still trying to find more humour in the Faith and more humour in God, cause humour is really my connecting point.

Yeshua

There is humour attributed to Jesus. Jesus had a sense of humour. Herod Antipas was a Jewish leader, or liked to pose as a Jewish leader. For example, he is known to have celebrated Passover and Sukkoth in Jerusalem. Unfortunately, his subjects were not convinced by their leader's piety. Jesus compared him to a fox in the Gospel of Luke, an animal that was ritually unclean, morally filthy and sly - which although not very funny to our ears now, would have been hilarious in first century Galilee, like saying something funny about Barack Obama today.

"...At that very hour some Pharisees came and said to him, "Get away from here, for Herod wants to kill you." Jesus said to them, "Go and tell that fox for me, "Listen, I am casting out demons and performing cures today and tomorrow, and on the third day I finish my work..." (Luke)

Now its 2,000 year old - so I doubt that you will be "rolling" over with
laughter, or even finding any of it remotely funny. But Jesus' "wittiness" should shine through nonetheless and has courage, since it took guts to stand up to people who ruled as dictators and had the power of death over you!

A joke is even attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas:

72. A man said to him, "Talk to my brothers so that they will divide my father's property with me".
Jesus replied: "Man, who made me a divider?"
He turned to his disciples and asked them: "Really, am I a divider?"

Davies commentary says: "This simple dialogue portrays Jesus as reacting in a rather snippy fashion to what appears to be a reasonable request. It is evidently meant to be a joke, and as such is one of the very few attempts at humour in the Christian tradition. It is a play on words. The Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas advocates oneness and unity. For example in saying 61c we hear "if one is unified one will be filled with light, but if one is divided one will be filled with darkness". Now he is asked to advocate division! How ironic, we are supposed to think, and how inappropriate"

The Apostle Paul had the best sense of humour in the Bible:

Referring to those who preached that all male believers in Christ must circumcise and follow Mosaic Law, Saint Paul wished that they would slip with their surgical instruments and cut off their balls. He states:

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and just castrate themselves!(Gal 5:12)

He's asking, “Hey, if circumcision justifies you, why not just castrate yourself altogether?”

Nearing the end of his ministry, Jesus renamed Simon with a nickname which would translate today to "Rocky." At the time it was like nicknaming a fat guy, "slim." You could see the disciples smiling. The event took place at Caesarea Philippi (Matthew 16:13-20) and Peter was then anything but a "Rock." Just moments after Peter's profound insight that Jesus is "the Christ" he proceeds to rebuke Jesus on another matter forcing Jesus to now call "Rocky" "Satan" for becoming an adversary. Peter would, in spite of his bravado, later prove himself both a coward and a liar — a flip-flopper and anything but a steady "Rock." Nevertheless, what seemed a humorous, incongruous nickname, became for Peter in the days following a renaming to live up to and a critical role to assume in the nascent church. With God's help he did live up to his name and became the rock Jesus knew he could. There was purpose to Jesus' wit.

In his book The Humor of Christ, Dr. Elton Trueblood examines in detail thirty humorous passages in the Synoptic Gospels

cire perdue

There are bad people in the Faith right now. They are here for the same reason those semi-evil people were. They can recognize love. That is what they truly want. Some of us however can be so damaged as not to have enough time in this life to do enough work to get through that stage. Be not naive about the composition of the world which will come into the Faith. We start where we are, daggumit. You don't get a pass to suddenly get a new personality when you become a Baha'i. It takes work, hard work, sometime with therapists, support groups, and simply TIME.

Even bad people need love. In order to be sincere and love these people it is important to know and love one's self first. Since Mankind is One to me it means that I am just as capable of as much evil as a human can do, and on the other hand I am just as capable of as much good as Abdul'baha. Believe me after my 60 years of being dumped on my head by the world, but never forsaken by God, i know a lot about me. This is the greatest gift of this Faith. I understand so much. It did not come from knowledge it came from spirituality and practicing it seriously even when I was a sex addict wishing I could die, because I was doing things I did not even want to or believe I should do. What was the solution to that?

It came in steps. My first therapist said to go on and go out there, because I was going to do it anyway, however she said enjoy it, she said enjoy my sexual addiction. Okay, I preceded to do so. On my own I decided to set goals toward a healthy life. They were simple at first. There was no failure. I think God even sent me partners that I gained something from. Then 22 years ago when a relationship did not work out, a "marriage", being a couple safely away from everyone in another state, I let go of it. It came slowly over about 2 years.

You see emotional skills are about sprituality to me, and any emotional skill that we did not get from growing up that is necessary to have a viable life/living has to be gained by us post parents. IT TAKEAT LEAST AS LONG TO ACQUIRE THESE EMOTIONAL SKILLS AS IT DOES TO LEARN TO READ OR TAKE A CLASS IN ACCOUNTING. These skills are simple and easily intellectually comprehensible, but they have to be practiced when the opportunity comes up, and failure usually occurrs a while until you begin to catch yourself doing the same old thing, and stop, and then after a while you will be doing the skill with adult firmness and it will change your world and how you love others. 12 step programs are what allowed me to do this.

I had extremely smart parents and I am a bright fellow, right? However was real life a surprise. Being a Baha'i is what got me this far along. They loved me when I could not love myself. We must love the unloveable, it is so vitally imperative. You must know and love yourself first or you are only a parody or a parrot. People sense this. The most important teaching tool is sincerity and self honesty. When we are told the teach the cause it really means we are not to impart facts, we are to love even when we can't say the words we want to tell people that include the names Baha'u'llah, The Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Shoghi Effendi! Love will say those names silently from your heart if you just simply love even the unloveable.

aidan

Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah and Mohammad pbuh all spoke of the value of deeds over words.I have met Christians Baha'is and moslems who walk with long facesr often ridiculing those" less fortunate than themselves"If your faith inspires you this should be evident in your body language and your demeanour.When I think of the love expounded by Baha'u'llah and the teachings of my faith it makes me smile and laugh.The lovers of God who love their faith are naturally inclined to laugh a lot.Incidentally the first miracle of Jesus' to be documented is the wedding feast where he changed water into wine.He wanted to party on down with the other guests.He was having a ball,the life and soul of the party,laughing His head off and wanted the party to never end.The fact that His Mom asked Him to do it gave Him permission to "act the eejit".And look at the photos of Abdulbaha at social gatherings how he smiled and laughed.picture him clapping his hands and tapping his foot to the music.Those who love God and are beloved of Him cant help but laugh a lot.And didnt the Greeks,Plato and that lot speak of the importnce of humour?

aidan

Pheeew.I think thats my longest post ever.I need a lie down and a finger splint

cire perdue

Well muscles that are exercised usually get stronger and can do more. But in your case we can consider an exceptiong....gotcha....lol. Glad you did it.