Momtazi

'Abdu'l-Baha was asked by a believer if she would have her little dog in heaven. He answered, "If you need him, he will be there." '

Does anyone know if this statement is authentic, and if so where is it stated?

tonyfish58

I would say not Authentic - Portals of Freedom is quoted as the source in this thread

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It is posted on the net a fair bit, but there is no link back to the quote in any authenticated writings - Just something to smile at but not gospel

Cheers Tony

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momtazi 'Abdu'l-Baha was asked by a believer if she would have her little dog in heaven. He answered, "If you need him, he will be there." ' Does anyone know if this statement is authentic, and if so where is it stated?

I know of no source for it, but it's always struck me as his diplomatic way of saying "No."

Bruce

cire perdue

It is possible that having to put a cat to sleep that I thought I was not attached to contributed to having the stroke. The stroke in theory was not from blood pressure either. I had memory cascades from PTSD history and crying and met with the Master briefly, but I had the sense the cat was with me and will be always. I did not think I would miss her so much, because she had been a lot of trouble and I have put animals down as soon as they have problems. She is with me now! He was absolutely right, but it is in me, not the cat's soul. I have learned to love because of animals.

Just because we do not understand something He said does not mean he did not say it, nor is understanding a criteria for authentication, though we are all guilty of that. Apparently "O God, refresh and gladden......." was determined not to be authentic, I had issues with it, but it is a good prayer even if it came from Mason Remey. People can bear good fruit even when they are flawed. We will probably build MR's HOW design, especially since Shoghi Effendi really designed it. DAniel Jordan may have been extremely flawed in one area of his life, but his work is priceless. I think it was too intellectual, though the intellectuals think everyone should like it, and they do not like the Ruhi Courses because they are not an intellectual exercise. RC's put everyone on equal footing, now what intellectual could possibly stand that!

I'm glad I'm a comic, because that is truly a dog eat dog profession. I don't have to be a dog that eats people to get there, but if I am the best it will be recognized. How do argue and be funny? ooooh, good idea. That is a whole rountine...............look out Baha'i School I'm on my way and this forum will be the best source of material for the topic ARGUMENTS>

cire perdue

We do not want Pilgrim's notes to be used like the Hadith has been used, but it does not mean that they may not contain truth if you can see it. They are kind of like my vision of Abdul'baha. It has borne fruit, but I cannot prove to anyone it is any more real than the cat that is with me that is dead who has no soul.

arthra

You might want to review this thread from the Baha'i Library Forum:

Baha'i Library Forum - View topic - Do Animals go to Heaven

unique75

I hadn't read about it!....., But at-least, in my experience in Dream. Perhaps, being at the upper place. I hadn't seen any (creatures-animal) but (human) souls and the light emaniting-off from GOD sitting on HIS Throne.

gusash

Hey guys. Haven't been on the forums for a while, but I wanna become a regular contributor. Anyway.

I thought I'd just add a bit of a question here. Whenever my mother and I talk about this particular topic, she tells me the story of when she was young and she held a bird as it died and she "saw the light leave its eyes".

What do you guys think I could say about this? She seems pretty convinced, and I don't just want to "convince" her, I also wanna be able to sleep tonight, with some vague idea of the truth... What do you guys think?

LordOfGoblins

with all respect. What is the question or point of the story that your mum gives to you and you dont know how to reply? Why is she relating this story to you.

gusash

Sorry, I wasn't exactly specific there. In my defense, I've got the flu, and I'm tired. Anyway.

My mum told me that story when I raised the topic of animals having souls/animals going to the next world or "heaven" with us. She believes that light she saw leaving the birds eyes, disappearing, was its soul. Her purpose in telling me the story, I guess, was to prove her point. She believes animals have souls. And I did, until I became a Baha'i.

LordOfGoblins

friend. You could suggest to your mum that the soul cannot be seen. Even with the light in a persons or a birds eyes. Rather that could be the spirit which animals do in fact possess. The soul is invisible to our five senses. THe next world which is the souls home is not a physical world. Light is a physical entity which is used to describe spiritual understandings with metephors etc. If you see a person from the next world like CP did. You are not seeing their soul. You are just having a vision. They might still visit but they must appear in a way that satifies the human brain using physical light and form etc...

cire perdue

I saw a huge lab grab a 3 week old kitten in its jaws and snap its back. I could not get there fast enough. However I held the tiny body in my hands as it expired trying to send love to that tiny pure creature. I saw that change as well. However as a nurse I have also seen people do the same thing. I cannot remember what it feels like when a person passes, but when my friend was killed, and I wasn't, by a train, there was a feeling of loss and emptiness, like an instrument in a symphony was no longer playing. Suddenly there was silvence in the world and I had to go on. My animals that I loved are inside me, so they are there when I need them. It makes more sense sadly than other explanations, so I'm sorry it is Pilgrim's notes. Somewhere is another teaching that I think is authenticated that Abdul'baha said the love for an animal is not ever wasted, though they do not have souls. I was told at a very early age that animals did not go to heaven when we buried the parakeet in the backyard.

Pollwr

I am not sure I fully understand the distinction between spirit and soul but there is quite a lot written about it that I think is relevant to this discussion:

After this is the animal spirit, which also results from the mingling and combination of elements. But this combination is more complete, and through the decree of the Almighty Lord a perfect mingling is obtained, and the animal spirit -- in other words, the power of the senses -- is produced. It will perceive the reality of things from that which is seen and visible, audible, edible, tangible, and that which can be smelled. After the dissociation and decomposition of the combined elements this spirit also will naturally disappear. It is like this lamp which you see: when the oil and wick and fire are brought together, light is the result; but when the oil is finished and the wick consumed, the light will also vanish and be lost.

The human spirit may be likened to the bounty of the sun shining on a mirror. The body of man, which is composed from the elements, is combined and mingled in the 144 most perfect form; it is the most solid construction, the noblest combination, the most perfect existence. It grows and develops through the animal spirit. This perfected body can be compared to a mirror, and the human spirit to the sun. Nevertheless, if the mirror breaks, the bounty of the sun continues; and if the mirror is destroyed or ceases to exist, no harm will happen to the bounty of the sun, which is everlasting. This spirit has the power of discovery; it encompasses all things. All these wonderful signs, these scientific discoveries, great enterprises and important historical events which you know are due to it. From the realm of the invisible and hidden, through spiritual power, it brought them to the plane of the visible. So man is upon the earth, yet he makes discoveries in the heavens. From known realities -- that is to say, from the things which are known and visible -- he discovers unknown things.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 143)

Momtazi

A big thank you to everyone's comments, and thus brought me to this conclusion:

The writings DO state that the animal has a soul..as per one example below:

In the animal kingdom it is called "sense perception" or instinct. This term soul, as applied to the animal kingdom, is also a natural quality resulting from the mixture of the elements, and it appears from their mingling and combination, for it is a quality which results from the composition of bodies (organisms), and is dispersed at their decomposition. From this we are to understand that the animal soul is not endowed with the capacity of attaining immortality, as the life force is dispersed at the decomposition of the animal tissues.

(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 404)

But as we can see, it is composed different to the human soul and it is not immortal.

But as the human soul has the faculty of inner vision and that it is this faculty that sees in the next world and thus it can see your pet....as the pet that was still in this world.

aidan

Animals do not have rights.It is only humanity that has rights as we are God's chosen.To attribute rights to the animal kingdom detracts from the sacrosanct binding of human rights.However God has placed upon our shoulders the solemn duty of stewardship of His creation.To abuse and disrespect His creation is a grievous sin as we disregard His great bountiful gift to us.Any man who disrespects God's creation is a lesser man for this.The pasasage in Genesis where the animals are brought to Adam to name is significant it that by instructing Adam to name the animals,God gives him the responsibility of stewarding them.

gusash

Animals do have rights. That's why there are animal rights lobbies and such. They are still creatures from God, and they are still here to exist, in their own right. If I am correct in my memory, the Writings tell us that the animals have a spirt, but not a rational soul, that can concieve of Gods existence. They still have the right to attain to their own perfections, and to reach their own limit.