Shamshir

أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمداً رسول الله

Sboyce

The Bahá'í Proofs and the Brilliant Proof by Mirza Abu'l Fadl
the seven proofs by the Bab
Tablet to the Christians and the Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah
Thief in the Night by William Sears
Release the Sun by William Sears
The Dawn Breakers - Nabil
God Passes By - Shoegi Effendi

cire perdue

They are very upsetting even to a Baha'i of 30 years.One thing is that it takes a very long time to find the answers to their charges. I have over the years read enough that I can usually fairly easily spot a strategy or some odor of maliciousness that is enough to realize that there is enough wrong with what they are doing that I no longer feel that I have to be able to refute every or even any point. I have NOT been as articulate as you see me on this forum for very long. I did not know I could talk to people like this. This has been an incredible venue for growth for me, and thank you all for the respect, gratitude, and kindness that I have received. Some of these diatribes against the Faith are so acidic that their very tone is enough to invalidate them for me.

I will repeat that no one has to acquire the ability to refute all of their points, as it might take a scholar to do so. Therefore I am saying everyone/you/me does not have to do that. It is important to find enough about Baha'u'llah and His verses to believe very stronglly that they are real. Then when you find something you cannot answer, turn it over to God. Give it time and I have always been confirmed.

My sister lived in Paris when I became a Baha'i. She was very interested, but when she found out no drinking that tossed it for her. Just after that she became a charismatic. So after this around 1975 she could not accept that Baha'is did not believe in the bodily resurrection. All I could do was say we didn't, and let go of it. I did not have an answer, but I waited and by 1981 we had new books and people coming out of the woodwork with answers. However it would not have mattered for her if I had those answers. She would not have changed.

Something that I have also concluded from this Forum IS that I am not responsible for finding the answers for anyone who asks. Some ask with no intention of being interested no matter what the answer, some ask just to shoot us down when we answer, again no matter what the answer. THE ONLY ONE YOU HAVE TO ANSWER TO IS YOU AND GOD. If you can be okay not answering anything for someone else, but are okay yourself and not even knowing why, then you are fine, don't ruin yourself. If you heart says yes, then let no one or thing or issue disturb you. That is all it takes.

We have been a community that has been highly intellectual. Intellectuals are not comfortable with feelings, intuition, and/or spirituality. We are almost fighting those intellectuals of whom some have boycotted the Ruhi Courses, and why? The Ruhi are not solely intellectual, provide a group spiritual experience (yes spiritual experience can be that simple), and foster intuition. All of these things are uncomfortable to intellectuals. People that cling that hard to the intellectual realm must have been terribly hurt or afraid to leave their comfort zone. We attract people who have been hurt, but we do not do well with anyone who wants to dominate or be an authority. Some of the sites you are seeing are from these bitter individuals who blame the Faith rather than looking at their own flaws.

It is a key element of this Faith that the answers and God is in us, not on the outside. It is a given that any time I am disturbed by anything then I am the source of the problem. We must always look inside ourselves first. Some very smart people are unable to do that, and building a site is fun to them, writing a book is a minor challenge. Do not let yourself be intellectually/spiritually abused by the bitter who have NOT looked at themselves. Whew.

cire perdue

I just lost 5-6 paragraphs I wrote about this, hitting the wrong button.

You do not have to answer those questions. Cling to the message from your own heart. There are bitter people out there who externalize their own issues onto the Faith. The most important issues are those we face about ourselves, some are incapable of the honesty it takes to make changes in themselves.

See if you can't smell the odor of their bitterness in these sites. There will be more, many more as the Faith grows. It is a proof of our validity and their fears will grow when they see people turning to us for the answers and love they no longer contain. They want control, we want to love everyone.

Oddly the big whew thingey got published above. I am grateful, it was quite a spoken piece.

cire perdue

I just took a brief gander. I saw all Moslem issues. The Faith was proven to me by Itself, not on the basis of any argument. Also that is going to happen, Islam is going to hate the Baha'is, they already do. Islam is not a religion of love in many places. They are terrified of losing control, and it is their fear and lack of love that is causing their failure.

gusash

Well I think Islam itself is a religion of love. So is the religion of Christianity, and Judaism, etc. God has been sending us His love this whole time. Islam is a beautiful religion. One of my best friends is a Muslim, and what's great is while we both know there are things we disagree on, we can agree to disagree, and just move on. We have had so many great, intellectual spiritual conversations. She has taught me a lot, and I like to think I have taught her a lot also. I love having conversations with people of different faiths, of different cultures and beliefs. It really is what makes the world interesting. The religion of Islam is a religion of love, but some of the people in it, managing it, haven't followed the things in the Scripture. We all know what has been happening for many years to our brothers and sisters in Iran.

cire perdue

I thought you were talking about disgruntled Baha'is, I have NEVER before seen an Islamic site that was anti Baha'i. I am quite flattered. I truly feel that the Faith has arrived. I also find it quite, quite exciting, yes, EXCITING. I apologize for my pompous verbosity, but I love pumping it out, at times it feels spirit filled.

No one works as hard as they did to attack something that is NOT a threat. We are a terrible threat to Islam and Christianity. I just always thought the "persecutions" would eventually come from Christians. It will just take longer before they jump into the fray. After the hospital experience I just went through I am even more aware of the love in this Faith. Their attack is not about people who are loving and secure in their religious beliefs and behavior. My previous tactic to deal with this though not knowing all the answers applies. I assure you that answering all those "charges" has been done and can be done again.

Baha'is are not to respond in kind. To respond in kind is to lose the love and caring that distinguishes from Islam. Love is not about control. Rules and rigid thinking ARE.

Yeshua

Dear Cire

I certainly do not think that Catholics, who are obedient to their Church, would "jump into the fray" to persecute Baha'is.

Our teachings are after all quite clear:

From Vatican II document "Nostra Aetate":

"...Religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men...

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men..." (Nostra Aetate)

The official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is that there is divinely inspired truth in all religions, and that Catholics should look for and respect the "ray of light" that we find in other religions, so as to promote interfaith harmony and world peace. We believe that other religions are part of the divine plan of salvation, and through the extraordinary grace of God can be genuine vehicles of salvation for their followers through their holy books and teachings - albeit still through the grace of Christ mystically present in their respective religions. We believe that the Holy Spirit is present throughout all religions and cultures, irrespective of faith. And we believe in one, primordial religion (aka St Augustine and Nicholas of Cusa) which encompasses the "diversity" of faiths, and which all genuinly good, well-meaning people who are hungering after the transcedent are members thereof.

Do you really think that given this we would ever start to feel threatened by/or attack Baha'is?

I do not think that the Catholic Church feels threatened by (or sees) Baha'is as a threat in any way but rather we view you as brothers and sisters in what it calls a "great enterprise" which is the building of the Kingdom of God in the hearts of men.

I sincerely hope that the feeling is mutual.

cire perdue

I feel very good about Roman Catholics as my sister is one, and she has been incredible to me once I quit focusing on her being an alcoholic and just got on with the relationship. We are however children of alcoholics, so for us to hash out the relationship to love each other is a spiritual blessing.

I feel very close to RC. IT has a history that is not so great, but this recovering homosexual can't cast stones at anyone.I think the Catholic church has done a divine job, pun intended, of showing that resolution can occur on many, many levels. If it were an individual it would make sense to have problems, solve them, and progress.

I went to mass at the St Louis Cathederal in New Orleans with my sister the Sunday after Xmas last year, and it did feel a little like I was coming home and had made peace with many things. I bought a crucifix there at age 11 when the 6th grade class took the train to New Orleans. When my sister was a charismatic Christian prior to this I don't know if she would have been able to be close to even a brother who was a member of satan's works on earth.

It almost feels like we are coming out of the Dark Ages, doesn't it?

cire perdue

How long has this site been up and going? Am I the last to know of it?

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamshir I was hoping either I could be pointed to Baha'i apologetics . . . .

In addition to those already listed above, another excellent Baha'i apologetic is Making the Crooked Straight, a work of fully 850 pages that refutes many anti-Baha'i arguments in great detail!

I hope that if you check around among the Baha'is, you can find a copy of this.

I personally find it invaluable!

Good hunting! :-)

Bruce

Yeshua

That is wonderful to hear Cire! Your sister sounds like a very devoted and special person. My family is of mixed religious persuasions as well (Protestant, Catholic, Atheist (Communist) and Buddhist) and I always find it touching and encouraging when the bonds of love between people transcend religious differences.

I agree with you that the Catholic Church has had a troubled history over its 2,000 years of existence. I suppose thats bound to happen when an institution is so old and covers such a vast expanse of the world (1.1 Billion people in every country on earth). With that number of people, and that age, its inevitable that your going to get corrupt clergy and infiltrators. But your right, the Church has freely admitted and apologised for the (many) errors committed in its long past, and has evolved towards brighter horizons since the Counter-reformation in the 1500s. Vatican II represented the climax of this gradual process of reform, rejuvenation and self-critique.

During the reign of Pope John Paul II, he apologized to Jews, Galileo, women, victims of the Inquisition, Muslims killed by the Crusaders and almost everyone who had suffered at the hands of the Catholic Church through the years. As Pope, he officially made public apologies for over 100 wrongdoings committed by his predecessors. There is no excuse for any of these abuses.

However one should not forget, in amidst all the bad, the tremendous good that the Church also did throughout the centuries. To this day, the Catholic Church is the most charitable institution in the world - with its organisations caring for more wounded, dying and poor that any other in the whole world.

A good book on the "good" elements of Catholicism is: "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilisation": http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Churc.../dp/0895260387

And yes I believe that we are in a New and Better age!

I like these quotes by Shogi Effendi:

"The Guardian agrees with you that the Bahá'ís should be very careful not to criticize or rather attack the [Catholic] Church. As we believe the Church of Rome to be the inheritor, so to speak, of Christ's teachings, the direct line, however perverted by men's doctrines, it certainly does not befit us to show antagonism towards it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 22, 1950)

"A Catholic background is an excellent introduction to the Faith, and one that Mrs. ... should feel gratified for having had. Though doctrines of the church today are no longer needed -- as the Father Himself has come, and thus fulfilled the mission of Christ the Son yet the foundation they lay of spiritual discipline, and their emphasis on spiritual values and adherence to moral laws, is very important and very close to our own beliefs." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to two believers, August 17, 1941; Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)

Directives from the Guardian: 107 JESUS (Virgin Birth of)

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Baha'i teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church."

Yeshua

“An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded.”

—Pope John Paul II

May we all have the honesty to admit the wrongs we have done and seek penance through love for others!

cire perdue

As a Baha'i I still don't think the previous religions can be re-invented to serve the current needs of this new age. It's an individual call/choice. We'll see. Sometimes it does not matter who gets credit if things are done well.

Yeshua

I suppose that only time will tell dear bother!

I agree that every age has it problems. The necessary first step toward solution is identification—diagnosis. You can’t cure a brain tumor by removing a rib.

"The Church of God in every age has been, as it were, on visititation through the earth, surveying, judging, sifting, selecting and refining all matters of thought and practice; detecting what is precious amidst what is ruined and refuse, and putting her seal upon it" - Blessed John Henry Newman, 1830

Robertus

Sites like these tend to operate on the own pre-suppositions. I've read too much Van Till to not see that now haha

If you look at that sites arguments they already start from the pre-supposition that the Bahai faith is false and that their specific form of Islam is correct, then they argue against the faith. If you start from this viewpoint you can pretty much disprove anything.

aidan

Brother Yeshua,I emphatically agree that RC is a faith of love when truly lived.However many Catholics arent lovers like you dear brother

aidan

I have been aware of this site since my declaration for the Faith.Like so many detractors,it selects specific concepts for attack.Like so many throughout history its totally un-contextual like those who state that the words "there is no God"can be found in the Bible

Yeshua

Dear Brother Aiden

I put a lot of it down to ignorance of the Faith. Most Catholics I know, who at least attend mass and know the rudiments of their religion, live decent and honest lives. However there is a lot of ignorance of the true teachings of the Faith, even within the Catholic Community. This is because of rabid secularization, which has made many people lose interest in learning about their religion. And then you have the stubborn "Traditionalists", who sadly are numerous on many of the Catholic forums online despite in actual fact being a minority within the Church, who refuse to assent to and obey the precepts of Vatican II or the Church Fathers or even many of the saints regarding their teachings on interfaith dialogue. I realy shake my head at their intolerance sometimes, and frank disobedience to the doctrines of the Faith as espoused by Vatican II.

As a result the teachings of Catholicism are often misrepresented to outsiders by Tradionalist zealots like the SSPX, which is only worsened by a negative, anti-religious media which so vehemently opposes the Church.

“Few people in America hate the Catholic religion,
but there are many who hate
what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion
—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion,
Catholics would hate it too.”

-Bishop Fulton Sheen

If the Catholic Church really was the kind of religion propagated by some Catholic Tradionalists - then I certainly would hate it a thousand times more than any non-Catholic, as Bishop Fulton Sheen also once said:

"As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do." - ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN -- preface to RADIO REPLIES

aidan

This website accuses Bahais of espionage in India!!!!How stressful it must be living in a state of paranoia

Yeshua

I've had a brief look at the website and I have come to the conclusion that its a rathere weak attempt by Shi'ite Muslims to spread mistruths about the Baha'i Faith so as to discourage Shi'ite Muslims from finding out about the Baha'i Faith and converting, out of a kind of fear.

cire perdue

...are the best teachers we can have. That is why the persecution teaches and causes the Faith to grow. The implication is that no one fights something that hard if it is not a threat. However fighting love with power, is like dousing a fire with gasoline. Their site and fight are not about love. I bet the RC church will be be here long after those kind of people. I predict that if history repeats itself, there will be a pope who declares himself a Baha'i after there are 2-3 billion Baha'is in the world.

cire perdue

I do not have the time to examine that, however in one examination He was criticized for speaking ungrammatically in Arabic, but he had duplicated Muhammad's use of the grammer and they did not realize it. At one point I think He was struck so hard His turban fell to the floor. This is something someone more familiar may be able to answer. I feel fortunate that for myself, I know there are answers and I don't have to find them in a panic. They are there. You can drive yourself crazy trying to answer all criticisms or you can have a heart connection or both or another option I can't come up with, just keep coming back.

arthra

"Baha'i Awareness" has been around for several years ..I think I first came across it around 2006. In the course of time it's had a few "facelifts".. I've also dialogued with the creator of the site and he has been slanted in his views from the beginning .. so for me at least it's nothing to be disconcerted about.

Check your sources and bear in mind that there will always be people who try to attack or belittle the Faith.

aidan

Someone earlier alluded to spirituality in academia.At the advent of summer school I was very excited at the prospect of listening to an internationally renowned Iranian/English writer.His talk was extremely intellectual and high-brow and very eloquent.To be honest,I felt a little deflated after speaking to him.He did not exhibit any personal knowledge of our love for God and after he talked about his work at length,I wonderd when he had time for prayer.I was left felling that my faith was the more enjoyable of the two.

aidan

what are your concerns Shamsir and maybe together we can work out We are totally transparent,havenothing to hide and fear no question brother.

gusash

It is truly sad, that these people put so much effort into defaming the Faith. One of the basic Baha'i beliefs, is that everyone has the right, to their own independant investigation of truth. To find what religion suits them, what they believe, for themselves. But to do this, they have to be rid of all attachment to anything of this world - past beliefs, bias, prejudice, money, items, etc. They need to free their heart to be able to make this journey.

The Seven Valleys, an official Text of the Faith written by Baha'u'llah, follows the path of the spiritual seeker and the journey he must go on and the stages he passes. It is written in the Sufi mystic style, as it is a response to questions posed by Shaykh Muhyi'd-Din, a Sufi judge. If you want to have a look at that later, it is here.

So much emphasis in the Faith, is put on detachment from the earthly world. These people, who write these blogs, and these books, and spend so much of their time defaming us, haven't come detached. As Arthra said, these people come with slanted views. The pre mis-conceptions in their mind, purely seeing the Faith as a threat. It is not here to be threatening. It is here to be accepting of all the peoples of the world, and spread the love of God.


Sorry. My interjection here was probably unneccessary. I wanted to be apart of the conversation

InvestigateTruth

I think the Bab was ignorant in His trial, because He didn't have to prove anything to anybody. It was their duty to recognize the Bab as Manifestation of God and the Promised Qaim. Instead they asked for Miracles, which is not the right way to recognize Messengers as both Muhammad and Jesus rejected doing any miracles for people, as recorded in the Quran and Bible.
The Mullas were also cared too much about arabic grammers instead of paying attention to the essence of teachings of the Bab, so, the Bab was also sometimes intentionlly ignorant with regards to arabic grammer to mislead them.
Jesus was also in a way was ignorant in his trial as recorded in the Bible. They asked Him, "are you the Messaih, king of jewes, son of God?" He replied, "you say this"

aidan

Samshir I found Islamic Watch which is a site refuting Islam,have a look and let us know what you thnk.here is also a site The Catholic Church Is A Big Hoax

cire perdue

Yes, I had forgotten this aspect of it. We have to look for ourselves, but remember you do not have the responsibility for those answers, so don't take on other peoples' problems. Focus on what you need and want..........

arthra

There's at least three versions of history when you consider the events..

One is the version of the Mullahs.. the court histories.

Another is the version of some of the dissidents from the Faith itself...

And you have the version of the Faith.

The oppressors..

Those who defected..

And the version of the oppressed

So there are enemies and people who have their own slant.

I know the creator of the site in question made several attempts for his story to get out there on academic forums but the man is not a scholar and he's not objective enough.

cire perdue

That is a very apt point. I can remember my yoga teacher damning Catholocism all to pieces, but it did not prove what he believed. He was very smart and very critical of others. Baha'is do not need to disprove other religions, in fact we should be affirming them to find similarities to bridge gaps.

Yeshua

How interesting! This the precise reason why the Vatican II Council refused to issue "anathemas", that is condemnations of "heresy". All previous Ecumenical Councils had been called in response to specific "heresies" which had entered the Church, and which the Council subsequently condemned as "anathema" ie Arianism, Monophysistism, Nestorianism etc. However Vatican II never condemned anything. It simply proclaimed its own truth and respectfully commented on the beliefs of others, without so much as a murmer of condemnation.

If you read through John XXIII's opening speech to the Second Vatican Council (which I recommend ) in 1962, you will see that he stated from the outset that this Council would the first one in Christian history - Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox - that would not issue any condemnations. To this end the Council did not condemn atheism, Communism, materialism etc. or anything else it disbelieved in:

"...Mother Church rejoices that, by the singular gift of Divine Providence, the longed-for day has finally dawned when the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council is being solemnly opened here beside St. Peter's tomb. The Councils -- both the twenty ecumenical ones and the numberless others, also important, of a provincial or regional character which have been held down through the years -- all prove clearly the vigor of the Catholic Church and are recorded as shining lights in her annals. In calling this vast assembly of bishops, the latest and humble successor to the Prince of the Apostles who is addressing you intended to assert once again the Magisterium (teaching authority), which is unfailing and perdures until the end of time, in order that this Magisterium, taking into account the errors, the requirements, and the opportunities of our time, might be presented in exceptional form to all men throughout the world...Ecumenical Councils, whenever they are assembled, are a solemn celebration of the union of Christ and His Church, and hence lead to the universal radiation of truth, to the proper guidance of individuals in domestic and social life, to the strengthening of spiritual energies for a perennial uplift toward real and everlasting goodness. The testimony of this extraordinary Magisterium of the Church in the succeeding epochs of these twenty centuries of Christian history stands before us collected in numerous and imposing volumes, which are the sacred patrimony of our ecclesiastical archives, here in Rome and in the more noted libraries of the entire world...At the outset of the Second Vatican Council, it is evident, as always, that the truth of the Lord will remain forever. We see, in fact, as one age succeeds another, that the opinions of men follow one another and exclude each other. And often errors vanish as quickly as they arise, like fog before the sun. The Church has always opposed these errors. Frequently she has condemned them with the greatest severity. Nowadays however, the Spouse of Christ prefers to make use of the medicine of mercy rather than that of severity. She considers that she meets the needs of the present day by demonstrating the validity of her teaching rather than by condemnations. Not, certainly, that there is a lack of fallacious teaching, opinions, and dangerous concepts to be guarded against and dissipated. But these are so obviously in contrast with the right norm of honesty, and have produced such lethal fruits that by now it would seem that men of themselves are inclined to condemn them, particularly those ways of life which despise God and His law or place excessive confidence in technical progress and a well-being based exclusively on the comforts of life. They are ever more deeply convinced of the paramount dignity of the human person and of his perfection as well as of the duties which that implies. Even more important, experience has taught men that violence inflicted on others, the might of arms, and political domination, are of no help at all in finding a happy solution to the grave problems which afflict them..."

You can find the full text here: http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/teach/v2open.htm

The Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years. And its learned from the past - CONDEMNING THE BELIEFS OTHERS DOES NOT IN ANY WAY SERVE TO VALIDATE THE TRUTH OF YOUR OWN RELIGION.

So its decidedly given up on "condemnation".

aidan

Another example of the Holy Spirit in action.John xxiii was only intended to be a stop gap while the cardinals groomed their man and he turned out to be one of the great reformers

Yeshua

Amen!

When he was voted into office as Pope, some of his fellow Cardinals mocked him behind his back as "King Log" because of his body-weight, and thought that he was a dotted old man who would only last a short while and do nothing of note.

And then, once he announced the Second Vatican Council, the saying amongst them became, "Gosh! King Log has actually rocked the boat!"

Vatican II was Pope John's Council and Legacy - and its rightly called the most important event in Christianity since the Reformation.

cire perdue

I have no problem with Catholicism, I would probably be one if there were no alternative. The question once again for a Baha'i is not so much, is that religion valid, because they all are valid, but are they able to transform the world, and the answer to me is that they will not be able to do this. It requires a new foundation.

arthra

There are no Baha'i sites that attack other religions.. You won't find say literature attacking Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

Yeshua

I agree 100% Amen to that brother Arthra!

As a non-Baha'i I can vouch that the Baha'i Faith is a true role model and pioneer of interreligious dialogue, mutual respectfulness between persons, love and reciperocal understanding.

aidan

The faith is anti:sectarian.racist,mysogynist,homophobic.classi sm,ageism basically anti-hatred

InvestigateTruth

It reminds me how Shoghi Effendi described the faith:

"The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is ... essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected...."

—Shoghi Effendi