"I don't want to be a Baha'i "

cire perdue · 11-05-2011, 06:20 AM

How often do we hear that? I figured out a good reason for feeling that way. It's having to deal with other people, other Baha'is, and getting out of our rose colored lives and facing reality and finding out who we are. Besides who needs other people. It's much easier to stay at home, watch TV, computer games, and the PC and have no meaningful interaction with others. Especially when they don't always agree with us and are a hassle to deal with. It's is comfortable to limit ourselves.

Do you know I do go see people and the TV stays on. I am there to see them not the "soul stealer". I LIKE to talk and visit. Are we avoiding a higher destingy? I think so.

cire perdue · 11-05-2011, 06:48 AM

The irony of avoiding people and challenges is that with a little practice we can probably be quite good at it, sincere even! You think?

arthra · 11-05-2011, 09:12 AM

I suppose you could say that people who "don't want to be a Baha'i" have made their choice..and we'll let'm be! Must be song along those lines somewhere...

"And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree,
there will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is still a chance that they will see,
there will be an answer. let it be.

"Let it be, let it be, ....."

cire perdue · 11-05-2011, 12:53 PM

I'm trying to express that it is hard to be a Baha'i. It's easier to hide. All God wants is that we make an effort to move toward Him and away from the world. He does not expect perfection, lemme tell you! We don't have to be perfect to be Baha'is, we just have to try. I can think of some rather flawed vessels that have been Baha'is who have done incredible things for the Faith. Just be, just do, just be in a process that progresses. It does not have to be hard to be a Baha'i, to join with us.

MAWillsey · 11-06-2011, 05:22 AM

I like your post. I understand your thoughts expressed in it. I have had similar feelings regarding feeling uncomfortable with associating with other folks. Even with reading the teachings that we are all different, come from different backgrounds, raised up with varied ideas, each have varied levels of maturity.

I always lived outside any Baha'i LSA and don't mind. I do have some extremely close and loving ties with other Baha'i. There are other Baha'i who I do not feel comfortable associating with. But, I feel this way about others who are not following the Baha'i faith. I feel this way in general about all people.

I have many layers of emotions associated with this basic thought which do affect my comfort level with what is going on within the faith. Right now I'm not sure if I have a single underlying issue which effects everything or if all my individual issues are relevant individually and simply combine to form what appears to be a single feeling of overwhelming apprehension.

Therefore, rather than being able to wholly jump in with the mainstream pack, I stand back and hold my ground. Picking through what I can personally use, give up on joining in with the main stream.

I ask myself, what am I trying to say here and now, what do I feel here and now, in this post. Perhaps to help others consumed as I am with being trouble over how I see others act like in the name of the faith, know that it is OK to feel this way, but to hold your ground, continue your personal growth, get stronger, then little by little, learn how to become closer to the community. As the Baha'i faith is about community, personal growth, acceptance of love, the ability to give love. Not just the Baha'i community but the entire global community.

cire perdue · 11-06-2011, 06:04 AM

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cire perdue · 11-06-2011, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAWillsey

I like your post. I understand your thoughts expressed in it. I have had similar feelings regarding feeling uncomfortable with associating with other folks. Even with reading the teachings that we are all different, come from different backgrounds, raised up with varied ideas, each have varied levels of maturity.

I always lived outside any Baha'i LSA and don't mind. I do have some extremely close and loving ties with other Baha'i. There are other Baha'i who I do not feel comfortable associating with. But, I feel this way about others who are not following the Baha'i faith. I feel this way in general about all people.

I have many layers of emotions associated with this basic thought which do affect my comfort level with what is going on within the faith. Right now I'm not sure if I have a single underlying issue which effects everything or if all my individual issues are relevant individually and simply combine to form what appears to be a single feeling of overwhelming apprehension.

Therefore, rather than being able to wholly jump in with the mainstream pack, I stand back and hold my ground. Picking through what I can personally use, give up on joining in with the main stream.

I ask myself, what am I trying to say here and now, what do I feel here and now, in this post. Perhaps to help others consumed as I am with being trouble over how I see others act like in the name of the faith, know that it is OK to feel this way, but to hold your ground, continue your personal growth, get stronger, then little by little, learn how to become closer to the community. As the Baha'i faith is about community, personal growth, acceptance of love, the ability to give love. Not just the Baha'i community but the entire global community.

I have struggled with shame and fear of exposing non-Baha'is to me, because I am often perceived as gay, I have stood back more than i should. Also I don't think I was ready. If we have difficulty with others then perhaps we should be moderate in our interactions with people. I don't think we should act like we don't have problems, to deny them, and to go on into groups of any kind and cause mayhem. However we are about unity and loving each other.

So are you really so bad you need to be taken in small doses, or are you denying us the opportunity to love you and you accept it. I don't remember all the implications of my saying, "It is easier to love than it is to receive love.", but there is that to consider as well..........

If we avoid interaction how can we improve in our personal relationships. If we need help to grow then we ought to invest in the consultation of a therapist. The purpose of a counselor is to help you do more than you have done by yourself, when you have done all you could, or even before that, because you know you alone are not enough. You know 2 heads are better than one after all........

spirit · 11-06-2011, 08:01 AM

I am not sure I agree with you cire? How about this....recently I went with a friend and attended a Christian/Catholic prayer group, fish boil, they called it. I guess it was similar in fashion to a Bahai meeting.
They went around the room and each person spoke about what they were grateful for....Now these people were of a different faith and I heard them talking and believing differently, but the underlying tone, was they wanted the same thing that we all want. To be good people and to use prayer to help individually, make better choices.
There will always be acceptance within our own faith, to some degree, yes personalities will clash, etc, but why would you avoid joining a faith because you don't want to attend meetings?
And why not attend a non Bahai event? Didn't Abdul Baha say you don't have to be a Bahai to be Bahai? I know its in some answered questions somewhere, but not sure exactly where the quote is.....

cire perdue · 11-06-2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit

I am not sure I agree with you cire? How about this....recently I went with a friend and attended a Christian/Catholic prayer group, fish boil, they called it. I guess it was similar in fashion to a Bahai meeting.
They went around the room and each person spoke about what they were grateful for....Now these people were of a different faith and I heard them talking and believing differently, but the underlying tone, was they wanted the same thing that we all want. To be good people and to use prayer to help individually, make better choices.
There will always be acceptance within our own faith, to some degree, yes personalities will clash, etc, but why would you avoid joining a faith because you don't want to attend meetings?
And why not attend a non Bahai event? Didn't Abdul Baha say you don't have to be a Bahai to be Bahai? I know its in some answered questions somewhere, but not sure exactly where the quote is.....

The title did get your attention. This is just to explore reasons people avoid the Faith. Sorry to have misled you. I do have some beach front property in Arizona however if ......

aidan · 11-06-2011, 12:44 PM

CP,I dont understand why you felt a need to stand back due to being perceived to be gay.

MAWillsey · 11-06-2011, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

I have struggled with shame and fear of exposing non-Baha'is to me, because I am often perceived as gay, I have stood back more than i should. Also I don't think I was ready. If we have difficulty with others then perhaps we should be moderate in our interactions with people. I don't think we should act like we don't have problems, to deny them, and to go on into groups of any kind and cause mayhem. However we are about unity and loving each other.

So are you really so bad you need to be taken in small doses, or are you denying us the opportunity to love you and you accept it. I don't remember all the implications of my saying, "It is easier to love than it is to receive love.", but there is that to consider as well..........

If we avoid interaction how can we improve in our personal relationships. If we need help to grow then we ought to invest in the consultation of a therapist. The purpose of a counselor is to help you do more than you have done by yourself, when you have done all you could, or even before that, because you know you alone are not enough. You know 2 heads are better than one after all........

I can only do what I can do, emotionally that is. I can only grow as fast as my strength takes me. Wasn't it said that it is ok to avoid those we find harmful? Perhaps not, perhaps I misinterpret. Those that I do find loving and healthy I express and return that love, to those that have issues, I shall call it that, I must avoid for now.

armin · 11-06-2011, 02:00 PM

I'd say surely there isn't one reason why certain people avoid the faith, which is obvious I suppose. One of the biggest reasons that we don't see a huge influx of people is the overall sentiment of this age. People mainly follow materialistic approaches to life rather than spirituality; in most cases they don't even know it or fail to acknowledge it. It's unfortunate that many people, if not the majority, see the advancement of human civilization and science in a sense a counter to religion or a separate path that they can follow in order to achieve prosperity, whatever they infer prosperity to be in their own minds.

The lessened impact of spirituality nowadays is hurtful, for me at least. Unfortunately this is taking place among all groups of people, Baha'i or not. Many acquaintances and friends of mine, though Baha'i, have no clue what spirituality is or the impact it can have on their lives (now thinking about it almost all of the people I'm talking about have been born in Baha'i families and became Baha'i by default. It pains me to see how we can take things we have for granted; it's something I was prone to as well and lead me astray for some time.) Back to my point, I know many Baha'is who, to put it simple, don't believe and are not Baha'i in any sense. Yet they never hesitate to jump on the bandwagon of bashing other religions and other peoples belief.

I don't know what to call it precisely other than saying that they are monuments of confusion. Too often they've confided in me and one doesn't have to be a psychiatrist to know how lost they are, how they struggle to make sense of life, how they desperately search for the truth and to have something real to hang onto. I was never able to make them see the truth and to change their perspective about life in general.

Spirituality has been lost. We are at an age of rapid development and advancement technologically and humanity, implicitly, has accepted the physical and material advancement as the main, if not the only, pillar for prosperity. As long as people see money and wealth as the only answer to all their problems things are going to be the same. I think humanity has to suffer a great deal more so that the emptiness of this approach will become apparent. This will surely take a long time. I'd say anywhere between 50 years to a century+. Generations have to change so that a general consensus is reached that would emphasize spirituality as the center piece and the answer to humanities struggles, not just one option that more often than not is only spoken of on the face and not taken seriously.

cire perdue · 11-06-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan

CP,I dont understand why you felt a need to stand back due to being perceived to be gay.

I also am probably shy, but I am scared of being rejected. It doesn't matter any more, and someone did post the quote from the Guardian that it does not excuse one from teaching the Faith.

cire perdue · 11-06-2011, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAWillsey

I can only do what I can do, emotionally that is. I can only grow as fast as my strength takes me. Wasn't it said that it is ok to avoid those we find harmful? Perhaps not, perhaps I misinterpret. Those that I do find loving and healthy I express and return that love, to those that have issues, I shall call it that, I must avoid for now.

You are probably doing better than some of us who could be like overly self confident bulls in china shops.........

cire perdue · 11-06-2011, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armin

I'd say surely there isn't one reason why certain people avoid the faith, which is obvious I suppose. One of the biggest reasons that we don't see a huge influx of people is the overall sentiment of this age. People mainly follow materialistic approaches to life rather than spirituality; in most cases they don't even know it or fail to acknowledge it. It's unfortunate that many people, if not the majority, see the advancement of human civilization and science in a sense a counter to religion or a separate path that they can follow in order to achieve prosperity, whatever they infer prosperity to be in their own minds.

The lessened impact of spirituality nowadays is hurtful, for me at least. Unfortunately this is taking place among all groups of people, Baha'i or not. Many acquaintances and friends of mine, though Baha'i, have no clue what spirituality is or the impact it can have on their lives (now thinking about it almost all of the people I'm talking about have been born in Baha'i families and became Baha'i by default. It pains me to see how we can take things we have for granted; it's something I was prone to as well and lead me astray for some time.) Back to my point, I know many Baha'is who, to put it simple, don't believe and are not Baha'i in any sense. Yet they never hesitate to jump on the bandwagon of bashing other religions and other peoples belief.

I don't know what to call it precisely other than saying that they are monuments of confusion. Too often they've confided in me and one doesn't have to be a psychiatrist to know how lost they are, how they struggle to make sense of life, how they desperately search for the truth and to have something real to hang onto. I was never able to make them see the truth and to change their perspective about life in general.

Spirituality has been lost. We are at an age of rapid development and advancement technologically and humanity, implicitly, has accepted the physical and material advancement as the main, if not the only, pillar for prosperity. As long as people see money and wealth as the only answer to all their problems things are going to be the same. I think humanity has to suffer a great deal more so that the emptiness of this approach will become apparent. This will surely take a long time. I'd say anywhere between 50 years to a century+. Generations have to change so that a general consensus is reached that would emphasize spirituality as the center piece and the answer to humanities struggles, not just one option that more often than not is only spoken of on the face and not taken seriously.

Well said!

MAWillsey · 11-06-2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

I also am probably shy, but I am scared of being rejected. It doesn't matter any more, and someone did post the quote from the Guardian that it does not excuse one from teaching the Faith.

You are that which you are, it is others who are mandated to see you as an equal. We all have all the aspects of God, right! I enjoy cooking, do laundry and clean, some would say would constitue a gay, I don't evev enjoy sports, I'm doomed!

cire perdue · 11-06-2011, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAWillsey

You are that which you are, it is others who are mandated to see you as an equal. We all have all the aspects of God, right! I enjoy cooking, do laundry and clean, some would say would constitue a gay, I don't evev enjoy sports, I'm doomed!

One of the things that I think one sees in gay people and knows they are gay is a great deal of internalized and acknowledged pain. My hospitalizatin and "vision" in which I think Abdul'baha told me I was acceptable to Him has been enormously life changing. I am telling people I have known for years who gave me space, but knew I had been gay that I have been in recovery for 22 years. I'm coming out of the closet. I don't need to tackle anyone else's life, but I am taking charge of mine. There is a lack of comfort with heterosexual men for gay men that under the right circumstances become very apparent. The solution to heal is to make heart to heart contact with men that we usually did not have from our fathers or need to heal from seduction, sexual abuse, or other......

Rani · 11-06-2011, 03:23 PM

Armin wrote:
'Spirituality has been lost. We are at an age of rapid development and advancement technologically and humanity, implicitly, has accepted the physical and material advancement as the main, if not the only, pillar for prosperity. As long as people see money and wealth as the only answer to all their problems things are going to be the same..'

I think it's the sex too. -Not just about a reliance on material things, although that is certainly true too. People don't want to be told to not have sex unless they marry. -Not saying everyone has a problem with it!, but it's a big one in today's western society. People rely on relationships, and nowadays a lot of people don't want to wait (for marriage), in case it doesn't work out.

I think there has to be more of a reason for chastity than just it being put forward as a benefit for the happiness of society. I think it has to be more about personal sanctification and purity. If a person relies on their relationship (b4 marriage) and the comfort it gives them, it is not putting God first, right?
Hope I haven't gone too much off topic.

MAWillsey · 11-06-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

One of the things that I think one sees in gay people and knows they are gay is a great deal of internalized and acknowledged pain. My hospitalizatin and "vision" in which I think Abdul'baha told me I was acceptable to Him has been enormously life changing. I am telling people I have known for years who gave me space, but knew I had been gay that I have been in recovery for 22 years. I'm coming out of the closet. I don't need to tackle anyone else's life, but I am taking charge of mine. There is a lack of comfort with heterosexual men for gay men that under the right circumstances become very apparent. The solution to heal is to make heart to heart contact with men that we usually did not have from our fathers or need to heal from seduction, sexual abuse, or other......

I despise titles, I'm French, I'm English, your black, we're Baha'i. these are all inventions of the mind. People give names to all other they don't feel are exactly the same as they are. We all are, no exceptions, creations of an unknowable (except through Manifestations) Creator. As soon as we issue titles then we begin to alienate and reduce each others humanity.

cire perdue · 11-07-2011, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAWillsey

I despise titles, I'm French, I'm English, your black, we're Baha'i. these are all inventions of the mind. People give names to all other they don't feel are exactly the same as they are. We all are, no exceptions, creations of an unknowable (except through Manifestations) Creator. As soon as we issue titles then we begin to alienate and reduce each others humanity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan

Which is your stongest identity Jay,being Baha'i or a recovering gay?You constantly talk about being a recovering gay but nobody cares.You are a lovely loveable man whom I am the richer for knowing

WOW! You both nailed me. Intellectually without your inputs I guess I would say it's Baha'i, but emotionally I am still reacting as if it is the recovering gay. I've had jobs where I was terrified for anyone to know especially in the psych hospital. I figured I would get persecuted for working on the Baha'i aspect. I guess I've come of the closet and yawl are teaching me that it is more important just to be me and that even if I were gay, you would love me and help me in the struggle. I feel like I just caught a golden ring for another ride on the merry go around, except this time I am not afraid to laugh.

MAWillsey · 11-07-2011, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

WOW! You both nailed me. Intellectually without your inputs I guess I would say it's Baha'i, but emotionally I am still reacting as if it is the recovering gay. I've had jobs where I was terrified for anyone to know especially in the psych hospital. I figured I would get persecuted for working on the Baha'i aspect. I guess I've come of the closet and yawl are teaching me that it is more important just to be me and that even if I were gay, you would love me and help me in the struggle. I feel like I just caught a golden ring for another ride on the merry go around, except this time I am not afraid to laugh.

Dear C P,

From what I've read on several Baha'I forums, (so a grain of salt is needed here) , I can easily see that alcohol use and some one in what they see as a committed and loving same sex relationship is handled similar. You don't flaunt it, you don't March in Gay Parades, you nuture your committed relationship. It is left up to you and God.

If you conservativly drink alcohol, in the privicy of your home, don't tell others it is acceptable to drink alcohol, don't get dui's, then, it should be a private matter between you and God.

It should not be the concern of anyone else imho, we all have issues, everyone, no one is perfect, but if your overall life and spiritualgrowth is strong,, then IMHO you are headed inthe right direction.

And yes, you would be welcome in my home as well as your partner

I'm not saying the two situations are the best, according to new teachings.

spirit · 11-07-2011, 08:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAWillsey
I despise titles, I'm French, I'm English, your black, we're Baha'i. these are all inventions of the mind. People give names to all other they don't feel are exactly the same as they are. We all are, no exceptions, creations of an unknowable (except through Manifestations) Creator. As soon as we issue titles then we begin to alienate and reduce each others humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aidan
Which is your stongest identity Jay,being Baha'i or a recovering gay?You constantly talk about being a recovering gay but nobody cares.You are a lovely loveable man whom I am the richer for knowing

i wholeheartedly agree, we get so tied up with titles! What difference does it make? We identify with these labels that society gives....
I like to think of myself as a spiritual person, who works hard at growing and failing to grow. If someone judges me for not being Bahai enough, that is their issue not mine.
If CP sees his struggles from being gay, what does that have to do with anything? Its an identity! I don't see you that way, I see the person underneath. Those are Cps spiritual growths, if that is a sentence lol!
I think life is about learning, the difference between what society says is "good" and what scripture teaches us, that we have to learn about ourselves.
I hope that makes sense?

I went to a Catholic prayer group thing, quite by accident, with a friend, and found that even though they had different beliefs, when I listened closely, they wanted the same thing we all want. To make right choices and be good people in a crazy world. It was very enlightening...
Now I'm sure not everyone is that way some do like to argue and be judgmental but again, much of that is fear, fear of letting go of old beliefs and thinking for oneself.

aidan · 11-07-2011, 09:44 AM

CP is the first gay that Ive had any kind of meaningful relationship with and he has given me cause for thought through watching his obvious pain.I am hetero sexual and to ask me to be homosexual would be like asking me not to breath.Impossible.We cannot change our sexuality,any of us.I cannot be a Baha'i and have sex outside of marriage therefore to be a Baha'i I must lead a celibate life.Celibacy for me is very very hard,I make no bones about it.I do feel an intense sexual urge at times.But I chose to remain celibate as I could not live with my conscience if I was to profess the Baha'i faith and have illicit sex at the same time.I do believe that celibacy is as important and valuable as marriage.It gives me multiple opportunities to study and to pray and participate in activities without having to consider the needs of a wife.On the other hand I do also suffer from loneliness but I chose to remain celibate and therefore avoid one sin.To reiterate my original point,I fully accept my sexuality and realise that it will be with me til I reach the Abha Kingdom but it does not dominate my every thought word and deed.I dont allow it to have such control over me.Heterosexuality does not identify who I am.I am me.

cire perdue · 11-07-2011, 02:10 PM

I prefer not be considered gay. My recovery has resulted in more comfort with regular men and increased interest in women. I want to marry again, even at my age, but do not have to, and won't unless it fits well. I consider myself a latent heterosexual......I can't wait until someone who is gay and disagrees with me tell me that I wasn't gay. HA!

If one is a Baha'i, MA, and another Baha'i shows up with his gay partner openly then that is a problem for an LSA. I know of a extremely well known Baha'i who actually did this and it was tolerated up to a certain point, however it finally got nipped.

11-05-2011, 06:20 AM	#1
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,615	"I don't want to be a Baha'i " How often do we hear that? I figured out a good reason for feeling that way. It's having to deal with other people, other Baha'is, and getting out of our rose colored lives and facing reality and finding out who we are. Besides who needs other people. It's much easier to stay at home, watch TV, computer games, and the PC and have no meaningful interaction with others. Especially when they don't always agree with us and are a hassle to deal with. It's is comfortable to limit ourselves. Do you know I do go see people and the TV stays on. I am there to see them not the "soul stealer". I LIKE to talk and visit. Are we avoiding a higher destingy? I think so.

11-05-2011, 06:48 AM	#2
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,615	The Irony The irony of avoiding people and challenges is that with a little practice we can probably be quite good at it, sincere even! You think?

11-06-2011, 08:01 AM	#8
spirit Member Joined: Aug 2011 From: Milwaukee Posts: 62	cp I am not sure I agree with you cire? How about this....recently I went with a friend and attended a Christian/Catholic prayer group, fish boil, they called it. I guess it was similar in fashion to a Bahai meeting. They went around the room and each person spoke about what they were grateful for....Now these people were of a different faith and I heard them talking and believing differently, but the underlying tone, was they wanted the same thing that we all want. To be good people and to use prayer to help individually, make better choices. There will always be acceptance within our own faith, to some degree, yes personalities will clash, etc, but why would you avoid joining a faith because you don't want to attend meetings? And why not attend a non Bahai event? Didn't Abdul Baha say you don't have to be a Bahai to be Bahai? I know its in some answered questions somewhere, but not sure exactly where the quote is.....

11-06-2011, 03:23 PM	#18
Rani Senior Member Joined: May 2011 From: Australia Posts: 240	Armin wrote: 'Spirituality has been lost. We are at an age of rapid development and advancement technologically and humanity, implicitly, has accepted the physical and material advancement as the main, if not the only, pillar for prosperity. As long as people see money and wealth as the only answer to all their problems things are going to be the same..' I think it's the sex too. -Not just about a reliance on material things, although that is certainly true too. People don't want to be told to not have sex unless they marry. -Not saying everyone has a problem with it!, but it's a big one in today's western society. People rely on relationships, and nowadays a lot of people don't want to wait (for marriage), in case it doesn't work out. I think there has to be more of a reason for chastity than just it being put forward as a benefit for the happiness of society. I think it has to be more about personal sanctification and purity. If a person relies on their relationship (b4 marriage) and the comfort it gives them, it is not putting God first, right? Hope I haven't gone too much off topic. Last edited by Rani; 11-06-2011 at 03:27 PM.

11-07-2011, 08:24 AM	#22
spirit Member Joined: Aug 2011 From: Milwaukee Posts: 62	agree Quote: Originally Posted by MAWillsey I despise titles, I'm French, I'm English, your black, we're Baha'i. these are all inventions of the mind. People give names to all other they don't feel are exactly the same as they are. We all are, no exceptions, creations of an unknowable (except through Manifestations) Creator. As soon as we issue titles then we begin to alienate and reduce each others humanity. Quote: Originally Posted by aidan Which is your stongest identity Jay,being Baha'i or a recovering gay?You constantly talk about being a recovering gay but nobody cares.You are a lovely loveable man whom I am the richer for knowing i wholeheartedly agree, we get so tied up with titles! What difference does it make? We identify with these labels that society gives.... I like to think of myself as a spiritual person, who works hard at growing and failing to grow. If someone judges me for not being Bahai enough, that is their issue not mine. If CP sees his struggles from being gay, what does that have to do with anything? Its an identity! I don't see you that way, I see the person underneath. Those are Cps spiritual growths, if that is a sentence lol! I think life is about learning, the difference between what society says is "good" and what scripture teaches us, that we have to learn about ourselves. I hope that makes sense? I went to a Catholic prayer group thing, quite by accident, with a friend, and found that even though they had different beliefs, when I listened closely, they wanted the same thing we all want. To make right choices and be good people in a crazy world. It was very enlightening... Now I'm sure not everyone is that way some do like to argue and be judgmental but again, much of that is fear, fear of letting go of old beliefs and thinking for oneself. Last edited by spirit; 11-07-2011 at 08:33 AM.

11-05-2011, 09:12 AM	#3
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,058	I suppose you could say that people who "don't want to be a Baha'i" have made their choice..and we'll let'm be! Must be song along those lines somewhere... "And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree, there will be an answer, let it be. For though they may be parted there is still a chance that they will see, there will be an answer. let it be. "Let it be, let it be, ....."

11-05-2011, 12:53 PM	#4
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,615	I'm trying to express that it is hard to be a Baha'i. It's easier to hide. All God wants is that we make an effort to move toward Him and away from the world. He does not expect perfection, lemme tell you! We don't have to be perfect to be Baha'is, we just have to try. I can think of some rather flawed vessels that have been Baha'is who have done incredible things for the Faith. Just be, just do, just be in a process that progresses. It does not have to be hard to be a Baha'i, to join with us.

11-06-2011, 05:22 AM	#5
MAWillsey 04/04/2005 Joined: Aug 2011 From: North Carolina, USA Posts: 43	I like your post. I understand your thoughts expressed in it. I have had similar feelings regarding feeling uncomfortable with associating with other folks. Even with reading the teachings that we are all different, come from different backgrounds, raised up with varied ideas, each have varied levels of maturity. I always lived outside any Baha'i LSA and don't mind. I do have some extremely close and loving ties with other Baha'i. There are other Baha'i who I do not feel comfortable associating with. But, I feel this way about others who are not following the Baha'i faith. I feel this way in general about all people. I have many layers of emotions associated with this basic thought which do affect my comfort level with what is going on within the faith. Right now I'm not sure if I have a single underlying issue which effects everything or if all my individual issues are relevant individually and simply combine to form what appears to be a single feeling of overwhelming apprehension. Therefore, rather than being able to wholly jump in with the mainstream pack, I stand back and hold my ground. Picking through what I can personally use, give up on joining in with the main stream. I ask myself, what am I trying to say here and now, what do I feel here and now, in this post. Perhaps to help others consumed as I am with being trouble over how I see others act like in the name of the faith, know that it is OK to feel this way, but to hold your ground, continue your personal growth, get stronger, then little by little, learn how to become closer to the community. As the Baha'i faith is about community, personal growth, acceptance of love, the ability to give love. Not just the Baha'i community but the entire global community.

11-06-2011, 12:44 PM	#10
aidan Senior Member Joined: Jul 2011 From: n ireland Posts: 413	CP,I dont understand why you felt a need to stand back due to being perceived to be gay.

11-06-2011, 02:00 PM	#12
armin Senior Member Joined: Mar 2011 From: san diego Posts: 141	I'd say surely there isn't one reason why certain people avoid the faith, which is obvious I suppose. One of the biggest reasons that we don't see a huge influx of people is the overall sentiment of this age. People mainly follow materialistic approaches to life rather than spirituality; in most cases they don't even know it or fail to acknowledge it. It's unfortunate that many people, if not the majority, see the advancement of human civilization and science in a sense a counter to religion or a separate path that they can follow in order to achieve prosperity, whatever they infer prosperity to be in their own minds. The lessened impact of spirituality nowadays is hurtful, for me at least. Unfortunately this is taking place among all groups of people, Baha'i or not. Many acquaintances and friends of mine, though Baha'i, have no clue what spirituality is or the impact it can have on their lives (now thinking about it almost all of the people I'm talking about have been born in Baha'i families and became Baha'i by default. It pains me to see how we can take things we have for granted; it's something I was prone to as well and lead me astray for some time.) Back to my point, I know many Baha'is who, to put it simple, don't believe and are not Baha'i in any sense. Yet they never hesitate to jump on the bandwagon of bashing other religions and other peoples belief. I don't know what to call it precisely other than saying that they are monuments of confusion. Too often they've confided in me and one doesn't have to be a psychiatrist to know how lost they are, how they struggle to make sense of life, how they desperately search for the truth and to have something real to hang onto. I was never able to make them see the truth and to change their perspective about life in general. Spirituality has been lost. We are at an age of rapid development and advancement technologically and humanity, implicitly, has accepted the physical and material advancement as the main, if not the only, pillar for prosperity. As long as people see money and wealth as the only answer to all their problems things are going to be the same. I think humanity has to suffer a great deal more so that the emptiness of this approach will become apparent. This will surely take a long time. I'd say anywhere between 50 years to a century+. Generations have to change so that a general consensus is reached that would emphasize spirituality as the center piece and the answer to humanities struggles, not just one option that more often than not is only spoken of on the face and not taken seriously.

11-07-2011, 09:44 AM	#23
aidan Senior Member Joined: Jul 2011 From: n ireland Posts: 413	CP is the first gay that Ive had any kind of meaningful relationship with and he has given me cause for thought through watching his obvious pain.I am hetero sexual and to ask me to be homosexual would be like asking me not to breath.Impossible.We cannot change our sexuality,any of us.I cannot be a Baha'i and have sex outside of marriage therefore to be a Baha'i I must lead a celibate life.Celibacy for me is very very hard,I make no bones about it.I do feel an intense sexual urge at times.But I chose to remain celibate as I could not live with my conscience if I was to profess the Baha'i faith and have illicit sex at the same time.I do believe that celibacy is as important and valuable as marriage.It gives me multiple opportunities to study and to pray and participate in activities without having to consider the needs of a wife.On the other hand I do also suffer from loneliness but I chose to remain celibate and therefore avoid one sin.To reiterate my original point,I fully accept my sexuality and realise that it will be with me til I reach the Abha Kingdom but it does not dominate my every thought word and deed.I dont allow it to have such control over me.Heterosexuality does not identify who I am.I am me.

11-07-2011, 02:10 PM	#24
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,615	Ouch I prefer not be considered gay. My recovery has resulted in more comfort with regular men and increased interest in women. I want to marry again, even at my age, but do not have to, and won't unless it fits well. I consider myself a latent heterosexual......I can't wait until someone who is gay and disagrees with me tell me that I wasn't gay. HA! If one is a Baha'i, MA, and another Baha'i shows up with his gay partner openly then that is a problem for an LSA. I know of a extremely well known Baha'i who actually did this and it was tolerated up to a certain point, however it finally got nipped.

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