Truthseeker96

Last year i came across the zeitgeist movement, i think they might be on to somthing for a world goverment or way of rinning things. From what i inderstand the Baha'is ( please correct me if i am wrong i am still learning) want a one world goverment to help unify people , but they dont want to be the leaders of that. The zeitgeist movement could team up with baha'i faith and help unite the world. The zeitgeist could be the leaders they have great ideals that if followed could help stop hunger and give the homeless homes, it has a completely new economic system that would seemed to be better then or failing current one. Here is a mission statement i got from their offical website, please post your coments and feel free to read more if you are interested. . Latest Posts «Prev Next»

Oct 27th TZM on Russia Today
Media & Occupy
Peter Joseph appears on Russia Today to discuss The Media and Occupy Wall St.
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Mission Statement
Founded in 2008, The Zeitgeist Movement is a Sustainability Advocacy Organization which conducts community based activism and awareness actions through a network of Global/Regional Chapters, Project Teams, Annual Events, Media and Charity Work.

The Movement's principle focus includes the recognition that the majority of the social problems which plague the human species at this time are not the sole result of some institutional corruption, scarcity, a political policy, a flaw of "human nature" or other commonly held assumptions of causality.

Rather, The Movement recognizes that issues such as poverty, corruption, collapse, homelessness, war, starvation and the like appear to be "Symptoms" born out of an outdated social structure. While intermediate Reform steps and temporal Community Support are of interest to The Movement, the defining goal here is the installation of a new socioeconomic model based upon technically responsible Resource Management, Allocation and Distribution through what would be considered The Scientific Method of reasoning problems and finding optimized solutions.

This "Resource-Based Economic Model" is about taking a direct technical approach to social management as opposed to a Monetary or even Political one. It is about updating the workings of society to the most advanced and proven methods Science has to offer, leaving behind the damaging consequences and limiting inhibitions which are generated by our current system of monetary exchange, profits, corporations and other structural and motivational components.

The Movement is loyal to a train of thought, not figures or institutions. In other words, the view held is that through the use of socially targeted research and tested understandings in Science and Technology, we are now able to logically arrive at societal applications which could be profoundly more effective in meeting the needs of the human population. In fact, so much so, that there is little reason to assume war, poverty, most crimes and many other money-based scarcity effects common in our current model cannot be resolved over time.

The range of The Movement's Activism & Awareness Campaigns extend from short to long term, with the model based explicitly on Non-Violent methods of communication. The long term view, which is the transition into a Resource-Based Economic Model, is a constant pursuit and expression, as stated before. However, in the path to get there, The Movement also recognizes the need for transitional Reform techniques, along with direct Community Support.

For instance, while "Monetary Reform" itself is not an end solution proposed by The Movement, the merit of such legislative approaches are still considered valid in the context of transition and temporal integrity. Likewise, while food and clothes drives and other supportive projects to help those in need today are also not considered a long term solution, it is still considered valid in the context of helping others in a time of need, while also drawing awareness to the principle goal.

The Zeitgeist Movement also has no allegiance to a country or traditional political platforms. It views the world as a single system and the human species as a single family and recognizes that all countries must disarm and learn to share resources and ideas if we expect to survive in the long run. Hence, the solutions arrived at and promoted are in the interest to help everyone on the planet Earth, not a select group.

Fadl

I've examined this movement and found it to be what I like to call "sexed up" communism. It has a few good ideas, and lots of bad ones.

arthra

Truth seeker 96 wrote:

Last year i came across the zeitgeist movement, i think they might be on to somthing for a world goverment or way of rinning things. From what i inderstand the Baha'is ( please correct me if i am wrong i am still learning) want a one world goverment to help unify people , but they dont want to be the leaders of that. The zeitgeist movement could team up with baha'i faith and help unite the world.

My comment:

That's interesting...probably something I'll have to look into more.. The Baha'i International Community has a nongovernmental consulttaive status with the United Nations.. You might be interested in checking out some of it's position papers at

Home — Baha'i International Community -- United Nations Office | Bahá

Generally we Baha'is have been focused on the need for a world parliament at least since around 1871 or so when Baha'u'llah urged the then rulers of the planet to form a world parliament and an international court of arbitration...

LordOfGoblins

I met one of these in my travels on holiday in America. He was interesting to talk to though I must admit I was not fully concentrating. Perhaps their idea is not completely contradiction to Bahai principles. Really can we just dismiss something which does not have much to do with Spirituality but is primarily something that people use because they want to help the condition of the world?
Perhaps if the world is run by machines like this guy claims then we will have more time to spend on other things. I dont know about you guys but I feel really ground down in my job working all the time...
just a thought.

LordOfGoblins

Seriously though. I really feel as if all there is to this life is working. Does anyone have any ideas how one can overcome such an attitude since we spend most of our waking hours in work and not even serving the faith. Yes I know "work is worship" but it certainly doesnt come across as Bahai service.
And it is hard to "balance the two" as I dont have the energy to be the kind of person who is always running around.
Did anyone every think about this before?

aidan

Turn it around.Look upon work as a golden opportunity to witness the faith among those you meet.I often talk about my faith at work. wear a medallion and ring with the roundstone emblem and is a marvellous conversation piece

LordOfGoblins

You wear both of those? You are hardcore brother.

PlumbingTips02

Nice article.Thanks for sharing.

Fadl

Also, at the heart of zeitgeist movement is discrediting religion and God as mere outmoded human thoughts that we have evolved beyond. It uses some wacky theories about how Jesus never existed as a historical figure and was concocted based upon mere astroligical processes such has moving form the age of Ares (think Moses destroying the golden calf, because Taurus was the old age) and then of course Jesus being the arrival of Pices (the fish). Its all very convoluted and improbable, yet the end result is we don't need religion anymore and best do away with it.

The whole thing is part and parcel Marxist communism, with some neat things like robots doing all the work for us so we can spend our time with important things like learning painting, etc.

I hope no Baha'i would find any of this seductive, because its just fantasies. Some fantasies are dangerous though, if they get into enough heads.

LordOfGoblins

I did hear one ranting on whilst i was in NY in central park. I have to say he was interesting to listen to although I was not in a completely alert frame of mind. I didnt know that it was sortof anti-religious just thought it was more anti-capitalist. I think the minds of man come up with all kinds of ideas to better our condition and some are good and bad and a mixture but none are essentially the "solution" as Bahais know. I wish I had talked to them about the faith in hindsight but it is difficult telling people who are anti-capitalist that the faith is for capitalism. Personally I now lean towards a focus of just the faiths spiritual aspects when trying to talk with people how are strong minded in this way.
Have you had much successes with talking about these aspect of the Bahai faith with people? I would be interested if you have. I am having trouble seeing people as very receptive right now and you seem to have a good ability to talk and be eloquent in presenting the Bahai faiths ideas. THankyou for any feedback and I appreciate it.

Fadl

I love reading, and I read a lot of books on science, psychology, and what the sciences and humanities have to say about spirituality, religiosity, God, the human mind, belief and disbelief, and what how these things interact. An approach I am currently developing and have only done a little field testing, is surveying people about their beliefs on a variety of topics related to spirituality, and see how scientific their beliefs are in these matters. One thing I have found, is that while most people consider themselves 'believers' in science, that much of what they believe about spirituality is not supported by scientific research. I like to engage them at this level because that is where many people are, and there are a lot of misconceptions and inaccurate beliefs that make people closed to things that they have dismissed as superstitious, worthless, or scientifically invalid. By engaging and sharing findings of actual research, they have no choice but to at least consider what I have to say. My early efforts in this are showing some promise, but I have a lot more to do before I'm ready to share and promote this method. But in general, I think to share the faith, we need to always be informed of trends of thought and be knowledgeable of the people's current state of thinking. For example, reading the works of Dawkings and Dennet, and other popular atheist works, as well as works of Newburg that investigate spirituality at the neurological level, and naturally always reading the Holy Writings, all these things will help you engage people in the way that they need it and in a way that they can relate. I think if there is a method to share the faith, it is to always be a student about everything, and listen to people so that you know what their obstacles are, so that you can teach there.

But mainly, don't be afraid to share your faith because you think you don't know enough. Learning is important, but more important is walking the path and caring about people and wanting to be friendly, open and willing to share. You can be inaccurate and wrong about many things and be a good teacher just by having a sincere heart and a real desire to share, and in the process of teaching you learn more than any book on teaching has to say.

The mark of successful teaching is not 'converting' people. The mark of successful teaching is the act itself, and the affect it will have on your own heart and soul:

So teaching is a selfish thing. I teach because I love God and in doing so God reveals his mysteries to me. If someone recognizes Baha'u'llah in the course of my teaching, it is good, but it is not my victory in any way. When we teach our victory is there even if they should laugh at us or throw rocks! When someone embraces the faith, it is that individuals victory, and we really must learn to see it this way. When we really know that all teaching is successful, the moment we are engaged in the act of teaching, then it is easier to teach and the pressure goes away. It is a bummer to go out and 'fail' all the time, but a joy to always win. Teaching is a mystical processes, so the only losers at teaching are the ones who don't put faith in this mystical process and arise.

The thing you said about feeling you can't reach people, and maybe they don't listen, find joy in that, because abasement is the glory:



Also, if teaching were easy, think how unfortunate that would really be for us. Consider this verse:

So if we don't have difficulties in our teaching, if it is not a trial and a hardship, then what will we have to recount to those holy and exalted souls in the next world? This the way I think about it. It doesn't make teaching easy, but it makes it relevant and worthwhile, even when it seems to go badly.

LordOfGoblins

Thanks Fadl. That was a well thought out post..

Roan Carratu

As a person who came to the same conclusions and ideas as the Zeitgeist Movement 60 years ago, and who has been a member since it started three + pears ago, I think you are mistaking the original 'Zeitgeist: The Movie' as a Zeitgeist Movement video, when it is not. It is a video made by Peter Joseph when he was in collage, purely his opinions, and after he released it onto the Internet, he was undulated by people who wanted to become part of some kind of organization that might find real solutions to the problems presented.

So Peter Joseph started the website an the 'Movement' was born. It went from a few dozen to half a million members worldwide in less than 3 years, and the first video was overwhelmingly rejected by the membership for it's conspiracy theories and religious bashing, which are irrelevant to the mission of the Movement. The second and third videos made by Peter Joseph, Addendum and Moving Forward are better and have less of that irrelevant opinion.

The movement is not anti-religious nor do we care about government conspiracies and actions that are in the public discussion of such matters. We see them as irrelevant because what we see is necessary is the creation by the people of the world of a new basic paradigm to guide the actions of humanity, especially in the face of the dying of the ecology because of human behavior. The movement is not about religious beliefs, nor do we condemn them, but with half a million people joining so quickly, there are about every attitude and opinion within the movement that is possible. The education of the members is the main thrust of the movement now, based upon the scientific and technological perspectives of such people as R. Buckminster Fuller, Jacque Fresco, and Albert Einstein, among a great many more.

The Zeitgeist Movement is no more communist than it is capitalist, and frankly, they seem pretty much the same to us. They are both based upon coercion. We are against coercion, violence, and the misuse of technology to destroy the ecology, an ecology that humanity is part of and which needs to flourish for humanity to flourish, not be destroyed by a blind greed for profits.

The Movement is a giant conversation about what seems crucial to the members about that situation, not a hierarchy or power base or any of the old concepts of organization. there is no coercion or superiority among the members, by position or status. Everyone is a volunteer and nobody gets any 'special' abilities within our efforts. What organization we have is merely necessary to accomplish our goal of a sustainable, technologically sane, and peaceful world where humans blend with the ecosystem in mutual flourishing healthy life.

Nobody, including me or Peter Joseph, can speak with 'authority'. Those who see Peter Joseph as 'leader' or 'most important' are usually rapidly disabused of that idea. He is merely a visible spokesman of the general effort, and does a good job of doing that. A new peaceful paradigm is the hardest of all social basics to get across, because most people think based upon a paradigm they are often not even aware of. When they face the reality that the paradigm they have taken for granted is insane, it is very difficult to not see all paradigms as insane. That is the difficulty we face. The Zeitgeist Movement is a 'cloud phenomena', and it's direction is much like a flock of birds... while they all fly their own directions, all together we fly in mostly the same direction. The concepts we pretty much have in common are simply that we want a world that does not use money, military, or any kind of coercion, and which is ecologically sound. We commonly think that technology can find a way to help humanity blend into the ecosystem and flourish, without sacrificing 10,000 people a day to unnecessary starvation and war.

I would be happy to answer any questions anyone has, but please, no flames or 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' kinds of questions. If someone is sure that some assumption they cling to is absolute, then there really is nothing to say.

The Zeitgeist Movement is an emerging development in Humanity, a response rather than a cause, and much cannot be known or answered. There is no 'plan' or 'doctrine' or 'dogma'... there is only the heart goal of living in a sane world without war, poverty, or aristocratic rule, rather than the cultural nastiness that is symptomatic of the world's present cultural insanity.

Is it a fantasy? Yes it is. Our existing world culture is soooo immensely stupid, a practical science based fantasy might be our only choice in the future. And if we choose it on a global scale as the best option in a dying world, and if we do it peacefully, without coercion, it will no longer remain a fantasy.

Fadl

It is communism, and there is no way you can say it is not unless you abandon the definition of communism. Anyone who has studied economics and knows about economic systems who looks at the zeitgeist plan would say as much.

If the movement has abandoned its claims that Jesus never existed, this is good, because every part of those claims were based upon fallacious suppositions that are easily discredited.

As for the rest, "resource based economy" is the same as command economy, which is communism. If you want to argue that, I advise you to study Economics.

Roan Carratu

"It is communism, and there is no way you can say it is not unless you abandon the definition of communism. Anyone who has studied economics and knows about economic systems who looks at the zeitgeist plan would say as much.

If the movement has abandoned its claims that Jesus never existed, this is good, because every part of those claims were based upon fallacious suppositions that are easily discredited.

As for the rest, "resource based economy" is the same as command economy, which is communism. If you want to argue that, I advise you to study Economics."

I have studied and 'abandoned' all such definitions, since they are symptomatic of the cultural disease I call the 'current paradigm'. I cannot see any difference between capitalism and communism except in the jargon they use. I see 'economics' as a modern religion built upon a set of imaginary concepts in a self-consistent logic structure. In other words, it is a purely conceptual set of measures and values, internally self-consistent, that has little or no relationship with reality. Communism is merely another self-consistent logic structure that has the same basic assumptions but different methods for different values. Both use uniformed 'enforcers' to force populations to ascribe to and maintain the inherent insanity of that paradigm. Both, if any definition is applicable, are fascist and inherently insane. Both are based upon coercion, violence, and manipulation. They are more like a trojan, looks good but turns out pure nasty.

But I am not going to argue with you. You don't understand, you think you do, you have everything neatly fitted into rigid categories in your head, and see no reason why anything might be new and different than your categories. It is a common mindset and will not live again until reality impacts your personal life. That is happening, but not enough to 'wake up' enough folks to consider the possibility that what they think might be completely erroneous. But it will, because the current paradigms, like the religion of money, are destroying the ecology and are unsustainable. Pay attention. See what is happening in the world.

You can decide I am just raving, that my words are just nonsense strung together in incoherent strings, but you will change your mind eventually, because reality will not long accept delusion. The real law of Nature is 'adapt or die'.

Fadl

You shouldn't take offense. My attributing it to communism is not intended as an offense, it is merely categorizing it as what it is according to the normal and commonly accepted definition of communism, and according to the characteristics your movement has ascribed to itself. I and many others may hold a negative view about communism, but that is because we--let me just say I--do not believe the ideas in it are tenable or worth trying. I don't believe your movement is worth trying either, as it is based on too many of the failed and hollow assumptions of communism. That doesn't make you or your movement bad, but it makes you misguided. Naturally this is my opinion.

MAWillsey

Zeitgeist: Moving Forward | Watch Free Documentary Online

i believe it ties in with baha'i thought on science, conservation of resources. because the above noted documentary says religion has no plan to change the culture of money, they may not be educated in the baha'i faith. in my humble opinion, the baha'i faith is quietly awaiting the growth of believers to the point a non violent change happens through default, simply not enough people remaining with the old thoughts. if this movement disavows religion as an important part of life and the human spirit, sans humanism, then yes it is not going to melt with baha'i movement.

MAWillsey

[QUOTE=arthra;26573]Truth seeker 96 wrote:

Last year i came across the zeitgeist movement, i think they might be on to somthing for a world goverment or way of rinning things. From what i inderstand the Baha'is ( please correct me if i am wrong i am still learning) want a one world goverment to help unify people , but they dont want to be the leaders of that. The zeitgeist movement could team up with baha'i faith and help unite the world.
end of quotes

i beleive the baha'i goal is to eventually not rule the world per se but to unite all people then have local house's of justice which will replace old 'government' becoming self governing by default, using written guidance as well as consultation to live our mortal lives.

quote from faqs of zeitgeist website the venus project,

91. What about religion?

The concepts presented by The Venus Project are in no way inconsistent with most of the religious teachings of the world. Perhaps the major difference is that we would like actually to transform these lofty ideals into a working reality for the nations of our planet.

Eftekhar Be Khoda

I'm not sure I follow you. Economics is based on the idea that resources are scarce and thus a theory was developed to determine the best way to distribute those resources among a large human population. It's probably better discribed in ecological terms rather than the made-up bovine fecal matter that is modern economics, but I wouldn't say that economics itself is unrelated to the real world.

You are correct that adaptation is necessary, but I don't see where modern economics has ever said that the status quo was good enough. In fact, a lot of economic systems speak of "marginal utility" and other such measures that tell you how well a resource is being used.

Part of the problem is that economics describes ONLY human activity -- and thus is filled with politics. It's a problem for poli-sci as well because unlike most other sciences, the scientist may very well have a vested interest in the results of his experiment. That doesn't happen nearly so often in physics or mathematics because no one is going to "gore the wrong ox" by suggesting that the universe has a certain shape. No one is going to run afoul of Lord British by saying the Universe is square or shaped like a doughnut or oval or conical -- it isn't something that could make or break political power. Economics has that power so it's hamstrung by the politics of the day. Keyesians are basically what Americans would call liberal (can't speak for other nations) because their solution is to have the government spend money to create jobs. Joseph Smith's capitalism is much more in line with modern american conservatatism which is predicated on the idea that government intervention is bad. Politics is the leash of economic study in other words.

Fadl

I did not know that Joseph Smith was a capitalist. Was it Adam Smith then, who started the Mormon church?

Eftekhar Be Khoda

I guess. At least in my mind. Of course in my mind, I'm the only sane person.

Prodaytrader

Here is the thing: there is no master plan for how to run the world as written by Baha'u'llah. There are general statements like universal government and coin but what system will we use when everyone is a Baha'i? The reason I like this movement so much is because it is so practical. The need for food and shelter are a non religious matter thus science must rule the day on these matters.

Robots already build so much of what we consume. At this point it's just a matter of setting them to work on everything else we find menial. I'm stuck on motivation. What motivates people once all your needs are met? I find my present circumstances to be similar and little motivates me other then my child and golf.

Prodaytrader

I'll add: for weeks I have been talking about this movement as the ideas at its core strike me as utter truth. Are ownership and profit acceptable behaviors in present day society? Is it fair for a grounds keeper to work 12 hours a day cutting lawns making 100 bucks a day while the broker makes 1000 per day doing what a coin flip is just as statistically capable of doing? I could tell countless stories of lives that were drastically shaped by events in their lives when they first learned where they stood in society. My father among them. How different he would be had he been given equal access to society and the resources he needed to live his life a life which you and say is only fully realized when we come to know and worship god. If that is our job then why do most of us die from starvation? Seems to me what were really talking about is a fundamental shift to the bill of human rights. I say we add the following: you are entitled to equal access to all the earths wealth. Alaska does this. Nobody pays taxes and a fair share recieve a dividends check for oil royalties. How come I don't get a check? How come nobody pays me for the crabs and fish being taken fro my ocean? In my view if society can build the tools neccissary to feed and cloth us then why isn't it? Our protection aka our army is funded and controlled by the government and now healthcare so why not food and shelter too?

armin

The economic system we have now is definitely broken there's no doubt in that. The way I envision the ideal future is the utopia like ideas presented here and capitalism combined so that they balance each other. A safe bottom line ground is needed to be created to ensure the rights of every man and every soul. Communism/socialism provides this bedrock. Capitalism inputs the motivating force needed for innovation and growth. It creates the hierarchy, which we clearly see now in our society, and the hierarchy is a necessity it has to be there. It must not be a harsh hierarchy but be tame and just.

It really has nothing to do with religion. It's just about setting up a system that is just from ground up. We don't have such a system now because no one has tried it yet. But with the help of the Baha'i faith the world will soon realize the inevitable and unite. Mother nature has plenty to provide; it's us humans who don't know how to use it the right way.