Law as External or Internal

Xue · 11-18-2011, 10:52 PM

I went to a Christian fellowship meeting today, it was a meeting of the Local Church, which for those who may not have heard of this Church, is an interpretation of Christianity which focuses on the person and the Spirit of Christ.

One of the topics discussed was the Law of Moses, but not on the Law itself, rather, the relationship the believer has to the Law. It is somehow more abstract than the Laws themselves even though laws are also abstract entities.

The relationship the believer has to the Law, as given in Hebrews, is that the Law is not external but rather lives inside the believer. By becoming a believer we do not accept the Law, but rather God writes the Law into our being. It is a critical difference in the direction of action. Christ is saying it comes from inside the believer and goes outwards as opposed to, from outside the believer inwards. Christ further clarifies, no longer will the believers tell each other to know God. I find this point especially strong because it specifies that believers will not tell other believers what they must do.

I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
...No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ NIV

These points struck me because they are in stark contrast to what I experienced in the Baha'i Faith. As a Baha'i I remember the laws and teachings of Baha'u'llah being thrown about as external objects. The predominant experience I recall from Baha'i fellowship is being told by Auxiliary Board Members or other leaders that we must obey Bahaullah's laws, that we are ambassadors of His Name, that we must live the life, that we must set new standards for society, we must show the world we live by different rules. It was all highly externalized, and interestingly it is not external on just one level but several. It puts the laws as external to the believer, but it also considers the effect on the wider society as external: it is not the idea of self transformation that will impress the wider society but rather simply the sight of seeing these highly evolved people called Bahai's.

Looking back I have a much better understanding of my own feelings of these past Baha'i experiences. I realize that I was not receiving these admonishments from Baha'u'llah so much as I was from the Baha'i leaders only too eager to lead the meetings. These leaders were only interested in external results not internal transformation as Christ has said above. Now that is not to say that the Local Church, despite being designed to avoid the above problem of believers telling believers "to believe", will not still suffer from members trying to control other members. However I did find the Local Church fellowships thus far to be a far more convincing approach to religion than what I have experienced in Baha'i meetings.

LordOfGoblins · 11-19-2011, 12:22 AM

Friend. I am not sure about those ABM's and what they said to you, I am sure their intentions were best but what should really be emphasised is to refine and purify our characters and then our outward behaviour will naturally follow suit. There is little point in putting on a 'show' in my opinion to impress non-Bahais and come across as well-behaved religious people and exemplary members of society if those things are not done with honesty and sincerity. Therefore I am fairly certain that Baha'u'llahs laws are meant to create a slow change in our characters for the better that will eventually unveil a new generation of spiritual people who will lead the world by their example and eventually inspire others to follow suit. This is something which is done through Gods power and not the same as acting in a way like one does to please social norms at a party of aroistocrats for example.
I hope what I say is helpful and I appreciate your good post as it addresses this issue nicely.

MAWillsey · 11-19-2011, 01:52 AM

IMHO, As a Baha'i, we are taught to teach ourselves by reading and exploring. To know that we are here for a short time in this physical world, then we move on to higher level. To know that we are a spiritual individual and that while we are here in this physical state. To learn to love ourselves, to love one another, to educate ourselves as much as possible in all things but especially of being a more loving and forgiving being. it seems that change inside brings external changes. Change must start internally. To me Baha'I teachings are for changing ourselves, helping others on their path, as a way to improve the temporairy existence of those in the future, to help bring about a great peace, world wide which can only occur once the majority of beings can truly see themselves and all others as equal and actually as fellow creations of God.

cire perdue · 11-19-2011, 08:00 AM

In contrast to other religions I have not experienced much leadership like traditional religions in the Faith as you describe. As Baha'u'llah gives example in THE SEVEN VALLEYS we may be seeing things the "color" of our own globe of light. I did know Baha'is that were power seekers and it was really terrible, but when I went elsewhere there were plently who were not that way. I cannot say that we may not experience negative leadership at times, but to me it is the exception rather than the way of life for Baha'is. I can remember a time more than 30 years ago when the style seemed to guilt Baha'is into doing more. I don't see that at all now.

Having an inner locus of control is a measure of mental health. I have seen blatent examples of people who externalized the sources of their problems and the most negative poster that I have seen on this forum seems to do that. Someone who does that to that degree once an adult may never be capable of changing.

It is as severe a test as I know to be with Baha'is who seek leadership and want to be right about everything all the time. In my case it went on about 20 years before it resolved. As I said I would go elsewhere to savor the love and warmth of other Baha'is, and I held onto the Faith. Meeting the Members of The Universal House of Justice singly on Pilgrimage was the most obviously touching event to me. I began crying the first time I talked about it back home, and had not known how special I thought they were. They came to us, they hugged us, greated us, and showed sincerel interest that was incredible. I think it actually scared me. I would not let them hug me, I could not have managed that. However it was me who held them back. The love was very, very real.

Thank you for sharing you thoughts with us. I am so grateful that you felt you could. I hope there is something any of us say that can aid you in considering what you have experienced. I think it is so important to tell other Baha'is what we think and feel and I do prayerfully hope that we have given anyone the chance to reframe their ideas, ease their feelings, or warm their hearts.
Regards, CP

cire perdue · 11-19-2011, 08:10 AM

Many of the ABM's and even the members of the National Spiritual Assembly can be very different from us. They are often doctors, lawyers, judges, and successful entepreneurers whose baseline behavior is what made them successful in boardrooms, courtrooms, and large companies. They have a dignity and manner that might be easily misinterpreted. Though I can easily say I have NEVER met a haughty one, I can say I have met at least one who was mistaken, but sincere, but all of them even the one I experienced as "wrong" were sincere and loved the Faith. Until we have experienced many from the strata of successful people we may not realize what we are seeing. They have sensibilities and manners that are not general to the general public and are enviable. The Harvard lawyer (not Baha'i) that I know has the most gracious manners of anyone I have ever met. He is like Atticus in "To Kill A Mockingbird", and even has a classic genuine plantation accent. His manners alone make him worth of respect. He could be seen to be phoney, but having known him I know he is real.

LordOfGoblins · 11-19-2011, 08:18 AM

We must be patient with the friends of God and look upon them with the sin-covering eye. THis incluedes ABM's councillors etc, they are all just people like you and me.
Baha'u'llah says that the wayfarer must be patient with the friends for love of his religion. THat quote is somewhere, does anyone know? Anyway it is one thing that has stuck in my mind..

arthra · 11-19-2011, 09:55 AM

My view is that first is recognition of the station of Baha'u'llah and then obedience to the laws of His dispensation.. Actually Jesus in the Sermon n the Mount asked His hearers "You have heard it was said..but I say unto you.." so obedience was expected by Jesus as well.

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.

It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

- from the first paragraph of the Most Holy Book

Rani · 11-19-2011, 08:40 PM

For LofG, Is this the one you were thinking of?

'It is Our wish and desire that every one of you may become a source of all goodness unto men, and an example of uprightness to mankind. Beware lest ye prefer yourselves above your neighbors. Fix your gaze upon Him Who is the Temple of God amongst men..

If any differences arise amongst you, behold Me standing before your face, and overlook the faults of one another for My name's sake and as a token of your love for My manifest and resplendent Cause.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 315)

Momtazi · 11-20-2011, 01:31 AM

Xue,I agree...internal to external....if others don't agree, that does not make you wrong....follow your heart..... whichever direction it takes you, that's the path to God

LordOfGoblins · 11-20-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani

For LofG, Is this the one you were thinking of?

'It is Our wish and desire that every one of you may become a source of all goodness unto men, and an example of uprightness to mankind. Beware lest ye prefer yourselves above your neighbors. Fix your gaze upon Him Who is the Temple of God amongst men..

If any differences arise amongst you, behold Me standing before your face, and overlook the faults of one another for My name's sake and as a token of your love for My manifest and resplendent Cause.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 315)

Thats not the one. A good quote though. If i can find it I will post it but I am not having much luck so far. It was in the context of talking about the wayfarer.

Pollwr · 11-21-2011, 12:58 PM

Could this be the quotation.

I couldn't resist putting "wayfarer" through the Ocean search engine and that was a beautiful experience!

"O wayfarer in the path of God! Take thou thy portion of the ocean of His grace, and deprive not thyself of the things that lie hidden in its depths. Be thou of them that have partaken of its treasures. A dewdrop out of this ocean would, if shed upon all that are in the heavens and on the earth, suffice to enrich them with the bounty of God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. With the hands of renunciation draw forth from its life-giving waters, and sprinkle therewith all created things, that they may be cleansed from all man-made limitations and may approach the mighty seat of God, this hallowed and resplendent Spot.

Be not grieved if thou performest it thyself alone. Let God be all-sufficient for thee. Commune intimately with His Spirit, and be thou of the thankful. Proclaim the Cause of thy Lord unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth. Should any man respond to thy call, lay bare before him the pearls of the wisdom of the Lord, thy God, which His Spirit hath sent down unto thee, and be thou of them that truly believe. And should any one reject thy offer, turn thou away from him, and put thy trust and confidence in the Lord, thy God, the Lord of all worlds"

(Compilations, Baha'i World Faith, p. 108)

11-18-2011, 10:52 PM	#1
Xue Junior Member Joined: Jan 2008 From: Canada Posts: 23	Law as External or Internal I went to a Christian fellowship meeting today, it was a meeting of the Local Church, which for those who may not have heard of this Church, is an interpretation of Christianity which focuses on the person and the Spirit of Christ. One of the topics discussed was the Law of Moses, but not on the Law itself, rather, the relationship the believer has to the Law. It is somehow more abstract than the Laws themselves even though laws are also abstract entities. The relationship the believer has to the Law, as given in Hebrews, is that the Law is not external but rather lives inside the believer. By becoming a believer we do not accept the Law, but rather God writes the Law into our being. It is a critical difference in the direction of action. Christ is saying it comes from inside the believer and goes outwards as opposed to, from outside the believer inwards. Christ further clarifies, no longer will the believers tell each other to know God. I find this point especially strong because it specifies that believers will not tell other believers what they must do. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. ...No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ NIV These points struck me because they are in stark contrast to what I experienced in the Baha'i Faith. As a Baha'i I remember the laws and teachings of Baha'u'llah being thrown about as external objects. The predominant experience I recall from Baha'i fellowship is being told by Auxiliary Board Members or other leaders that we must obey Bahaullah's laws, that we are ambassadors of His Name, that we must live the life, that we must set new standards for society, we must show the world we live by different rules. It was all highly externalized, and interestingly it is not external on just one level but several. It puts the laws as external to the believer, but it also considers the effect on the wider society as external: it is not the idea of self transformation that will impress the wider society but rather simply the sight of seeing these highly evolved people called Bahai's. Looking back I have a much better understanding of my own feelings of these past Baha'i experiences. I realize that I was not receiving these admonishments from Baha'u'llah so much as I was from the Baha'i leaders only too eager to lead the meetings. These leaders were only interested in external results not internal transformation as Christ has said above. Now that is not to say that the Local Church, despite being designed to avoid the above problem of believers telling believers "to believe", will not still suffer from members trying to control other members. However I did find the Local Church fellowships thus far to be a far more convincing approach to religion than what I have experienced in Baha'i meetings. Last edited by Xue; 11-18-2011 at 10:57 PM.

11-19-2011, 08:00 AM	#4
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,615	Our vision In contrast to other religions I have not experienced much leadership like traditional religions in the Faith as you describe. As Baha'u'llah gives example in THE SEVEN VALLEYS we may be seeing things the "color" of our own globe of light. I did know Baha'is that were power seekers and it was really terrible, but when I went elsewhere there were plently who were not that way. I cannot say that we may not experience negative leadership at times, but to me it is the exception rather than the way of life for Baha'is. I can remember a time more than 30 years ago when the style seemed to guilt Baha'is into doing more. I don't see that at all now. Having an inner locus of control is a measure of mental health. I have seen blatent examples of people who externalized the sources of their problems and the most negative poster that I have seen on this forum seems to do that. Someone who does that to that degree once an adult may never be capable of changing. It is as severe a test as I know to be with Baha'is who seek leadership and want to be right about everything all the time. In my case it went on about 20 years before it resolved. As I said I would go elsewhere to savor the love and warmth of other Baha'is, and I held onto the Faith. Meeting the Members of The Universal House of Justice singly on Pilgrimage was the most obviously touching event to me. I began crying the first time I talked about it back home, and had not known how special I thought they were. They came to us, they hugged us, greated us, and showed sincerel interest that was incredible. I think it actually scared me. I would not let them hug me, I could not have managed that. However it was me who held them back. The love was very, very real. Thank you for sharing you thoughts with us. I am so grateful that you felt you could. I hope there is something any of us say that can aid you in considering what you have experienced. I think it is so important to tell other Baha'is what we think and feel and I do prayerfully hope that we have given anyone the chance to reframe their ideas, ease their feelings, or warm their hearts. Regards, CP

11-19-2011, 08:10 AM	#5
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,615	Additionally Many of the ABM's and even the members of the National Spiritual Assembly can be very different from us. They are often doctors, lawyers, judges, and successful entepreneurers whose baseline behavior is what made them successful in boardrooms, courtrooms, and large companies. They have a dignity and manner that might be easily misinterpreted. Though I can easily say I have NEVER met a haughty one, I can say I have met at least one who was mistaken, but sincere, but all of them even the one I experienced as "wrong" were sincere and loved the Faith. Until we have experienced many from the strata of successful people we may not realize what we are seeing. They have sensibilities and manners that are not general to the general public and are enviable. The Harvard lawyer (not Baha'i) that I know has the most gracious manners of anyone I have ever met. He is like Atticus in "To Kill A Mockingbird", and even has a classic genuine plantation accent. His manners alone make him worth of respect. He could be seen to be phoney, but having known him I know he is real.

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11-19-2011, 12:22 AM	#2
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,317	Friend. I am not sure about those ABM's and what they said to you, I am sure their intentions were best but what should really be emphasised is to refine and purify our characters and then our outward behaviour will naturally follow suit. There is little point in putting on a 'show' in my opinion to impress non-Bahais and come across as well-behaved religious people and exemplary members of society if those things are not done with honesty and sincerity. Therefore I am fairly certain that Baha'u'llahs laws are meant to create a slow change in our characters for the better that will eventually unveil a new generation of spiritual people who will lead the world by their example and eventually inspire others to follow suit. This is something which is done through Gods power and not the same as acting in a way like one does to please social norms at a party of aroistocrats for example. I hope what I say is helpful and I appreciate your good post as it addresses this issue nicely.

11-19-2011, 01:52 AM	#3
MAWillsey 04/04/2005 Joined: Aug 2011 From: North Carolina, USA Posts: 43	IMHO, As a Baha'i, we are taught to teach ourselves by reading and exploring. To know that we are here for a short time in this physical world, then we move on to higher level. To know that we are a spiritual individual and that while we are here in this physical state. To learn to love ourselves, to love one another, to educate ourselves as much as possible in all things but especially of being a more loving and forgiving being. it seems that change inside brings external changes. Change must start internally. To me Baha'I teachings are for changing ourselves, helping others on their path, as a way to improve the temporairy existence of those in the future, to help bring about a great peace, world wide which can only occur once the majority of beings can truly see themselves and all others as equal and actually as fellow creations of God.

11-19-2011, 08:18 AM	#6
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,317	We must be patient with the friends of God and look upon them with the sin-covering eye. THis incluedes ABM's councillors etc, they are all just people like you and me. Baha'u'llah says that the wayfarer must be patient with the friends for love of his religion. THat quote is somewhere, does anyone know? Anyway it is one thing that has stuck in my mind..

11-19-2011, 09:55 AM	#7
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,058	My view is that first is recognition of the station of Baha'u'llah and then obedience to the laws of His dispensation.. Actually Jesus in the Sermon n the Mount asked His hearers "You have heard it was said..but I say unto you.." so obedience was expected by Jesus as well. The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration. - from the first paragraph of the Most Holy Book

11-19-2011, 08:40 PM	#8
Rani Senior Member Joined: May 2011 From: Australia Posts: 240	For LofG, Is this the one you were thinking of? 'It is Our wish and desire that every one of you may become a source of all goodness unto men, and an example of uprightness to mankind. Beware lest ye prefer yourselves above your neighbors. Fix your gaze upon Him Who is the Temple of God amongst men.. If any differences arise amongst you, behold Me standing before your face, and overlook the faults of one another for My name's sake and as a token of your love for My manifest and resplendent Cause. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 315)

11-20-2011, 01:31 AM	#9
Momtazi Member Joined: Aug 2011 From: uk Posts: 33	Xue,I agree...internal to external....if others don't agree, that does not make you wrong....follow your heart..... whichever direction it takes you, that's the path to God

11-21-2011, 12:58 PM	#11
Pollwr Senior Member Joined: Jun 2009 From: earth Posts: 311	Could this be the quotation. I couldn't resist putting "wayfarer" through the Ocean search engine and that was a beautiful experience! "O wayfarer in the path of God! Take thou thy portion of the ocean of His grace, and deprive not thyself of the things that lie hidden in its depths. Be thou of them that have partaken of its treasures. A dewdrop out of this ocean would, if shed upon all that are in the heavens and on the earth, suffice to enrich them with the bounty of God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. With the hands of renunciation draw forth from its life-giving waters, and sprinkle therewith all created things, that they may be cleansed from all man-made limitations and may approach the mighty seat of God, this hallowed and resplendent Spot. Be not grieved if thou performest it thyself alone. Let God be all-sufficient for thee. Commune intimately with His Spirit, and be thou of the thankful. Proclaim the Cause of thy Lord unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth. Should any man respond to thy call, lay bare before him the pearls of the wisdom of the Lord, thy God, which His Spirit hath sent down unto thee, and be thou of them that truly believe. And should any one reject thy offer, turn thou away from him, and put thy trust and confidence in the Lord, thy God, the Lord of all worlds" (Compilations, Baha'i World Faith, p. 108)