arthra

The "Word" has an interesting background...

Gen 15:1 ¶ After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision,

You have references in the Bible to the "word of the Lord" coming to the prophets..

Of course the "Word" is commonly referred to in the Gospel of John:

λόγος

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Which had been mentioned in the writings of Philo of Alexandria concerning the ordering of creation.. The Greek word Logos also implies order per Philo:

Philo also wrote that "the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated."

In the Quran:

40. For to anything which We have willed, We but say the Word, "Be," and it is.

~ The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 16

The "Word" is the revelation ..what was revealed. Jesus taught the people the Word. It was passed down in verbal form ..later put to writing.

In the Quran:

37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord turned toward him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

~ The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2

Quran also mentions to that there were those who altered or changed the words for their own ends..

59. But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (our command) repeatedly.

~ The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2


In the Baha'i Writings are many references tothe Word of God such as

He it is at Whose bidding the standard of the Most Exalted Word hath been lifted up in the world of creation, and the banner of "He doeth whatsoever He willeth" raised amidst all peoples. He it is Who hath revealed His Cause for the guidance of His creatures, and sent down His verses to demonstrate His Proof and His Testimony, and embellished the preface of the Book of Man with the ornament of utterance through His saying: "The God of Mercy hath taught the Qur'án, hath created man, and taught him articulate speech." No God is there but Him, the One, the Peerless, the Powerful, the Mighty, the Beneficent.

~ Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 1

cire perdue

"But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (our command) repeatedly."

My immediate impression to this verse was the Sunni and Shi'ah split at Muhammad's death and the continual consequences of that during the centuries that even include the sack of Baghdad by the Khan. That plague has lasted a very long time, even to this day.

tonyfish58

This interview with Pasteur Monnier & Abdul'baha on the relationship between the Bahá'í Faith and Christianity, Paris contains some goos explanations on this subject - Link -

Abdu'l-Bahá on Christ and Christianity

Extracts

"For instance, it is recorded in the Gospel of St. John, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." The majority of Christians accept this as a matter of belief, but we give an explanation which is accepted by reason, an explanation that no one need find occasion to reject".

"We explain this subject as follows: By the "word" we mean that creation with its infinite forms is like unto letters, a letter individually has no meaning, no independent significance, but the station of Christ is the station of the word. That is why we say Christ is the word. By complete significance we mean that the universal bestowal of divinity is manifest in Christ. It is obvious that the evolution of other souls is approximate, or only a part of, the whole, but the perfections of the Christ are universal, or the whole. The reality of Christ is the collective centre of all the independent virtues and infinite significances."

Regards Tony

MichaelAW

When i read these posts it reminds why for years I shunned religion, it was the words. For most of us the Words are gobbledigoop, which has allowed teachings to be perverted and twisted to suit individuals in gain of fame and money and power.

The Word is good only if it is clear, concise and understandable by the majority of people. There are some, and many show up on forums who love words, love puzzles, love others coming to them for guidance and interpretation. Which is not mentally healthy.

Is religion to continue to be kept to an elite group of deep thinkers or is it ever going to be freed of human influence. Is religion really that complicated? I say no, and the more convuluted paragraphs there are, the more it drives people away and not to religion.

LordOfGoblins

Hi Michael.
You make an interesting point which is definately worth at least an essay in addressing.
I am not sure about how religion has been misused by those in power ie the clergy. I have no doubt that it has occured as clergy make interpretations to suit their own opinions and exert forms of control on the people of the religion. That is a form of power enjoyed by them which I am sure gives them a payoff.
In the Bahai faith however there is no opportunity for such a thing to occur as there is no clergy. Understandings are for the individual but we are not permitted to enforce our understanding on others. THe only people with such authority are the central figures of the Bahai faith and the guardian who are invested the authority explicatly in the text.

As for religion being simple versus religion being complicated. Well I would argue that complications are something which comes from man himself being complex. Faith is not complex itself. Love is not really complex is it. True religion is measured by mans faith in God. However because our lives in this material planes are somewhat complex, they require quiet a lot of different laws and writings to help in our advancement.
Nothing is beyond mans capacity should he choose to study religion and advance himself, he is quiet capable of becoming an enlightened individual and this is actually considerd a good thing. Schollarly knowledge however is not in itself a measure of ones closeness to God as such by any means in the Bahai faith.

This is my own limited undrestanding but I hope it is helpful if even in some small way.

cire perdue

I think in the earliest days of a religion there are few who grasp it, because it is unique and new. It has to be absorbed and becomepart of people's lives. I have noticed that there are intellectuals in this Faith who at times cling so tenaciously to using only their intellect that they boycott Ruhi classes for instance. It is also my experience that these are the kind of people who refuse to deal with emotional issues with emotions and then suffer for that. One cannot be only intellectual. In this Faith due to the process of concensus everyone has an equal voice fortunately and the least intellectual individual may make the most important contributions. This is one way the Baha'i Faith has been prevented from stagnation.

The Ruhi Courses are spiritual efforts that are universal in scope and really teach lessons that obviously do not satisfy everyone, but are tools for consolidation and teaching that promote service as a way of life. They are not the only tools out there.

I also think that the Faith has been in the hands of deep thinkers, but that this has been solved with a significant alternative by the Ruhi Process, and now the deep ones are struggling to understand it, rejecting and rebelling, probably failing to see anything but the lack of intellectual and academic satisfaction in the courses.

I still do not see the Ruhi Courses as elementary or not intellectual, but highly spiritual experiential events, though subtle. They create a group process that is prayerful and reverent. That affects people. That ceases to be a situation in control of intellectuals or the deep thinkers. I will say that the members of our institutions that I have personally met have in no way, NO WAY, dissappointed me as intellectuals, but as spiritual beings who have intellects that they use spiritually.

Anyone tackling the issue of faith that avoids using the affective parts of their soul is going to be challenged to develop what they lack. Many, many of us came into this Faith by an intellectual process and like I hopefully have been so grateful to learn it was no mere code of laws and social teachings, but a higher order of personal inner life utilizing our whole noble being. It has been the best surprise of my life and surprises me daily.

cire perdue

By your criteria Shoghi Effendi drives people away, and to write, consult, and/or discuss on this Forum is mentally unhealthy. Do blanket statments like that work well in a court?

There are a number of very isolated people who posts here who have developed bonds with each other. Some of us are isolated by not being able to discuss our thinking. Some of us may be practicig writing and I liked the issues you brought up and had answers. There are exhortations about the uselessness of "...sciences that being and end with words....", but also about how important it is to be able use words which are our only tool to impart the inner and outer world to each other.

One thing we learn as Baha'is is that religion raises mankind up. Without new concepts that will not happen. Thank goodness some are willing to work out those convoluted paragraphs for the rest of us.............. We are not going back to the days of Christianity when it was almost 100% word of mouth. It can still be done that way however, the Spirit can be imparted in many ways.

cire perdue

Is it within human power, O Hakim, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 200)

tonyfish58

Michael - I can understand where you are coming from, my wife is very put off by the way scripture is worded.

It seems that for what ever reason it was, that the words of scripture in the past were indeed closed to meaning. This fact is recorded in the Bible, not sure about the Koran.

Luckily the meaning of this word is unlocked as promised by Christ and is now made evident through the writings of Baha'u'llah.

But I admit there is still many writings that are hard to grasp without a full knowledge of religious tradition. This would be up to us to pursue.

I am no academic and I read what I can and meditate on a meaning to what I can not understand. In the long run the world is full of smart and not so smart people, that is just the way it is. We must still peruse the Word and get what we can from it.

In your field of work there is little different with words. A lawful interpretation of a word may be far removed from how most of us would understand it should be Lawyers have a great time stretching the meaning of words to suit a slant on a case they are pursuing etc.

Cheers Tony

Momtazi

cire perdue it's great that you believe in the Ruhi courses so much....but with respect you suggest that MichaelW is making "a blanket statement", whilst you are suggesting as a blanket statement that those who do not do the Ruhi courses are either "intellectual" or "deep thinkers"....I do not advocate Ruhi for MYSELF repeat for MYSELF.....I would like to think that I am a little spiritual and not just an "Intellectual"......Ruhi is great, I just do not accept that just by doing Ruhi is anywhere enough of a service....I am saddened to see some of the believers feel that doing Ruhi is "LIVING THE LIFE".....it is just not enough.

cire perdue

Not doing it at all is "Living the Life"? Pardon my aggressiveness, but instead of Ruhi I have to wonder what one does? One isolates? One only reads and prays? One remains in one's comfort zone?

I have trouble believing that which has been approved by our highest institution can be objectionable to anyone. However there is the grace that it is acceptable for people to object to it. Obedience is an act of faith. I will continue to have reservations about anyone who objects to the Ruhi. I am aware that the people I know who object have issues dealing with anything beyond intellectual abilities. I also suspect difficulty with authority and discomfort with anything that they do not control. My response to them is an issue for me, obviously.

I live where we do not have enough believers to have completed more than a couple of books. Anyone who has looked at Ruhi Courses and not done at least one as it is prescribed is adhering to preconceived ideas that probably cannot be remedied by anything including my rant. Can one do a Ruhi Course and not see its prayerful atmosphere?

I am certainly in other people's business and certainly into my own opinions and probably saying more than I should that will just get more defensive answers. (You are also seeing unresolved angst from years of very controlling behavior by others that was traumatic and actually abusive. As I am writing this I am realizing I guess I better work on this some more.) While saying this I will report that of the 6 available Baha'is over a 30 -40 mile area, 3 of us have read through THE COMPREHENIVE DEEPENING PROGRAM. and I found it better for our purposes than doing a Ruhi book. Especially when the other 2 had done more books than I prior to returning to the area.

My response is still to people who "boycott" Ruhi, have not done it, and judge it without having the experience of doing it. Ruhi cannot stand alone without one reading and praying and doing whatever it takes to live a Baha'i life. Not everyone in the Faith will follow a course of personal study about it.

Momtazi

cire perdue...no one has "objected" to Ruhi....It is obvious that we have a different understanding...as indeed it should be.....but "difference in understanding" is fine..."conflict" is not.....so I will leave this discussion and reflect on how I should put across a thought without antagonizing anyone.

Fadl

Momtazi,

This would depend on what your definition of "doing Ruhi" is. Of course, if doing Ruhi means going through the sequence of books and enjoying tea and cookies, then this is not living the life. However, if doing Ruhi means, well, doing it, then you are absolutely living the life, and probably to a fuller extent than the average Baha'i who doesn't practice all that the Ruhi courses entail.

If one does Ruhi, which includes making a practice of reading the word of God morning and night, keeping the Obligatory Prayer, fasting, devotional meetings, teaching, service projects, giving to the funds and paying huquq'u'llah, educating children...., I am sure I've left some things off of my list, but all of these are actionable items in Ruhi. So how is it possible to do Ruhi (ie all these things outlined above and more) and not live the Baha'i life to the fullest?

Now I am sure that there are some who go through Ruhi courses who do not do the memorization or action items or sustain them, and that is not living the life. That is hardly the fault of Ruhi, however, when Ruhi is designed to bring into being the patterns and habits which are the definition of the Baha'i life. Anyone who has "done Ruhi" and is not living the Baha'i life fully, has not done Ruhi at all, and should start again.


I would add this little bit about Ruhi too. Doing Ruhi (doing it proper) not only means living the Baha'i life, it also means being part of the plan and following the will of the Universal House of Justice. Therefore, even living the Baha'i in all aspects to a tee is deficient in a fundamental way, inasmuch as it seems an impossibility, in my mind, to truly live the Baha'i life without also being obedient to the Head of the faith, or without being unified and behind the global plan.

cire perdue

You are most kind. However I tried to make it noticeable that I had other issues besides what you brought up!

Momtazi

Fadl...very well put.

Iconodule

The word of God is Christ.

cire perdue

The Word of God for this day is Baha'u'llah.

Iconodule

And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

So Baha'u'llah was the person of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago? Why didn't he write a book clarifiying and explaining his life two thousand years ago? Or are there many words of God? And if so why don't we find this idea in any religion before bahai?

cire perdue

When Jesus appeared the earth was thought flat. Did we even have base 10 numbers? The message to man was limited to his ability and capacity of the times. God is telling us now. We have the internet and can talk to each other across the world. It's time. Shoghi Effendi made a statement that indicated we would have this instant communication. He died in 1957.

LordOfGoblins

Have you ever met two people who reminded you of eachother? Not because of their looks but their personality or spirit. They have the same spiritual essence or a similar one and you can connect with them in the same way. They are sortof the return one of the other... Likewise a king who comes and is a tyrant and kills many people is just as easily said to the the return of another tyrant king. They are one and the same in the eyes of God because their qualities were the same..

Rani

I regret that I'm not much of a 'scholar' on these matters, but I did find these quotes below from the Hadiths of the Muslim Faith. While not claiming to be actually the same person, Muhammad, according to the Hadith, referred to the prophets as brothers, and talks of the oneness of religion:


Allah's Apostle said, "Both in this world and in
the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people
to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are
paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but
their religion is one."

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 653:
Narrated Abu Huraira:


I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest
of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the
prophets are paternal brothers, and there has
been no prophet between me and him (i.e.
Jesus)."

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Iconodule

Now who on the earth at that time thought the earth was flat? I would love you to demonstrate that, Now they certaintly held that the sun and the planets revolved around the earth and that the earth was in the center of the universe, but flat? Demonstrate this please.
Now you are essentially telling me that we have misunderstood the message as Christians and that only now with out enlightened standards (which were the result of Christendom Morally and logically) can we now understand them. Okay lets play along, lets say we completely misunderstood the bible as Christians for 2000 years. The apostles not understanding their own culture or ours did not know how to write "Jesus has ascended to God in his spirit" (Oh wait Jews at that time knew completely how to say that because they differed in language between ressurection and asscension).
Saint Ignatius despite being taught by John didn't understand. Saint Polycarp also taught by John did not understand. And hundreds of more did not understand. So the question is still begged.
Now when it comes to Muhammad if we are to trust the hadith I must reject Muhammad, and if we are to reject the hadith I must reject a book I know nothing about the Muslim and the bahai are in a tight predicament with Muhammad as without the hadith or islamic history or anything explaining anything to do with the context of the quran or even who muhammad was you can't know anything. Yet by also accepting the hadith one has to (per the historical standard) accept the many embarressing accounts that no one would ever think to make up, such as Muhammad delivering the satanic verses. Historically this might be the only thing we can actually know of muhammad as there is no motivation for anyone pro Muslim pro muhammad as the Hadith writers were to make up this story.

LordOfGoblins

Well its pretty clear that you are not pro-muslim...

Iconodule

God forbid.

LordOfGoblins

And do you think such an attitude is beneficial to mankind in its current state? How the world has become global (I know you live in NZ), but Baha'u'llah says the earth is but one country and we are now seeing the evidences and truth of this statement today. So anyone at war with other religions is perhaps doing a diservice to mankind...

tonyfish58

Too right & The Word speaks for itself - Link - The Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh

Elaborating this theme, Bahá'u'lláh exhorted the people of the world to behave in a manner that will elevate their station; to "hold fast to the fear of God and firmly adhere to what is right"; to refrain from engaging in "slander, abuse and whatever causeth sadness"; to "hold fast to righteousness and truth"; to recognize that the "religion of God is for love and unity" and not to be made the "cause of enmity or dissension"; to respect those who have been invested with the power to rule or govern, and to "aid those daysprings of authority and sources of command who are adorned with the ornament of equity and justice"; "to serve all nations and to strive for the betterment of the world."

If you deny these are the Words of God, then you have to deny all religion. The Christians do today to Baha'u'llah what the Jews did to Christ.

The Word will prevail, many have tried to stop it spreading, the more they try the more it spreads.

Such is the way of God

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

Orthodox. You may find these words from our prophet helpful when considering how you view the people of other religions.

"O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! Ye were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancour. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind. Let your eye be chaste, your hand faithful, your tongue truthful and your heart enlightened. Abase not the station of the learned 139 in Bahá and belittle not the rank of such rulers as administer justice amidst you. Set your reliance on the army of justice, put on the armour of wisdom, let your adorning be forgiveness and mercy and that which cheereth the hearts of the well-favoured of God. "

MichaelAW

Good reply, I appreciate and take to heart what you are saying. Thank you

MichaelAW

This is in response to your two posts directly after my first quote, ha, ha,

You make very good points and I appreciate the depth of the two replies, good stuff for me to ponder,

It is funny that you mentioned Shoghi Effendi as it is he that I struggle with the most and often when reading some of his writings, my mind goes to the teaching, that the further away from the Manifestation the error of interpretation increases.

MichaelAW

He, he, "peruse the word", just wait until all the teachings are finally changed to English and released! We'll have to start early in life to read and take it all in!

PS, i'm not a Lawyer, my title was to point out some Word is too much legalese, I'm just an old man working in a factory. Reformed high school drop out.

cire perdue

You have trouble with Shoghi Effendi, reallllllly? I avoid his writings. I respect them, hold them as truth, but I too struggle with them. He is masterful and inspiring. When I grow up I want to read his works.

Baha'is are left a system of governance which replaces individuals having power. WHAT a blessing! I have met members of our National Spiritual Assembly and the members of the Universal House of Justice and have been vastly more than reassured that we are in God's hands. Each one has NO power outside of the convened meetings.

We are also asked to observe obdience to the extent that even though we think a decision is wrong, that we do not work against it, in order that the error may be discovered. I have seen Baha'is do this. I have been delighted to be proven wrong in these cases as well. This is the power of unity.

MAWillsey

I think I confused things, I can understand SE but I question a few of his explanations or views. I know I changed topic, the thread was about not understanding the way some things are written. I changed to content in this case. I have much more to read of SE's work in order to formulate better idea of what he was doing.

cire perdue

Okay MAW? HOW many names do you post under? Us geriatric cases with recent strokes get a little confused now and then, so do me a favor and make up your mind........

I don't believe threads are set in concrete. I can handle it.

Iconodule

Do I think my attitude is beneficial to Mankind? Yes I do, as I see islam as a terrible religion with terrible teachings from both it's Holy book and quran. Though I need not go into that. Does that mean I hate muslims themselves? No, but don't expect me to support muslims or anything they stand for (unless it is in line with Christianity).
So am I at war with other religions? It depends on what you call war, I will dialogue and debate with muslims and try to convince them as being wrong about God and religion as a whole. Am I at war with them? I really don't think so. But certaintly I would go to war to defend from islamic terrorism as i hope any sane person would.
Now I assume that is Baha'ullah speaking in that passage about love. how incredibly vague. Are you suggesting I am not acting in love? In at least some regard? I sincerely hope to debate and discuss these issues, I try not to do it for being simply right but for the love of Christ whom I worship as God.