What am I doing here? About Miracles?

cire perdue · 12-09-2011, 05:02 AM

Someone I am close to who is Catholic prayed recently about a skin ailment, that it not be severe, that it go away and/or that the vacation about to be embarked on would not be a problem as a result. After the successful vacation and going to a dermatologist it was discovered the rash was actually shingles and was even in the healing stage and there had been no nerve involvement and this rarely goes so well. This person concluded that due to that prayer God had done this and it had happened that way because of the prayer.

This is a problem for me. I feel that the person implies by telling me this that God answers their prayers "more" than other people, my Faith is better than yours, that "I should have gone on that vacation, see!", that God can be expected to be asked and grant his/her requests, and that this kind of miracle is the point of faith. If I had said the prayer my reaction would be God really might have done this, but maybe it would have turned out this way anyhow. I would not be crowing and seeing it as a confirmation of my beliefs. I would even consider that maybe it would have never gotten that bad, and due to where it was on the body, that it would not have ever gotten bad, gee, maybe God did do it. Operative word, maybe, unless it was to another Baha'i that I was close too, but I have the idea we would still not be certain/sure/positive God did this for/to me. To me if I did that my behavior would be superstitious. One part of this I agree with is that by turning to God, it did seem to be okay to go on the trip, that the intuition seemed to indicate rather than go to a doctor, it was okay to go on the trip. That I don't have a problem with, so much.....

I'm not asking for advice about what to do, I will figure what me will do myself. I am asking what do you see me doing? What does my thinking and reactions to this say? Do you agree or am I expecting someone to be like me or is that an example, maybe a muddy one of superstitious behavior? To me this is related to the focus on miraculous miracles. I think miracles are a daily occurrence. I am not sure I should focus so on any of them too much so to speak? Keep doing what I'm doing and keep my faith on this Faith. Who says I'm supposed to get what I want?

armin · 12-09-2011, 09:51 AM

I feel like you're reacting defensively and I think you know what that means yourself. In regards to the story the way that person is twisting the reality and convincing him/herself that this was some sort of miracle shows his/her lack of understanding and comprehension about religion in general and how God relates to it and us, this is my opinion of course. The best a rational person in this situation could say is a 50/50 scenario. Had that person been diagnosed with the disease beforehand and then after praying got better, then I'd say that person has the right to believe a miracle was the cause and no one else would have the right to say otherwise; of course we could doubt it but we would have no reasonable reason to say that is not the case.

Also, I think it is not right to expect miracles to happen or to look for confirmation of our faith. If an incident happens to have such effects, and this story obviously is not one, then great. I do consider this person somewhat superstitious but more so I would say the person is just irrational.

cire perdue · 12-09-2011, 11:17 AM

I need the word you used defensive. I am just stunned when this happens with this person which is does a lot. I'm having a hard time just accepting this right now.........if you say more I would be grateful........

Okay what should I do? What attitudes should I "pray" for, besides praying for this person.........

arthra · 12-09-2011, 12:13 PM

I had shingles once .. it was contagious and I had it treated at the time there was an odd pattern around the nerves and so on..

Prayer of course is always a good thing and seeing the doctor is a good thing.. You were taking care of yourself..

Sometimes our physical condition symptoms subside and then flare up again.

I think thanking the person for their prayers and concern for you is fine..accepting their prayer as a great miracle in and of itself may inflate their ego..God heals.

Pollwr · 12-09-2011, 12:40 PM

I really don't think you are likely to impact on your friend's belief's regarding healing with reason. If they are a valued friend, I am sure they will need your support when the prayed for healing to order does not come.

I had a born-again Christian friend who was part of a very enthusiastic group who believed that healing would come when prayed for. His mother got ill and he prayed, and prayed and prayed. When she did not get better some members of his group started to imply that he wasn't sincere or good enough or there was something he was doing wrong. It was so sad to see his struggle with his faith. I was able to be there and offer him Bahá'í prayers, which he seemed to be pleased to accept. I never made the mistake of guaranteeing him healing for his mother because I did not have the right to. Had I done this I think he would have become a Bahá'í there and then, only to be disappointed again. It would have been a false promise.

I remember when I was a teenager attending Church and Bahá'í class. I once went to the very dear lady at the Bahá'í class and said that I felt that all Manifestations of God were good but Jesus was the best, the main one. She smiled and said that Yes, Jesus was very important. I sort of knew that she was not in total agreement but she did not argue. Looking back, I realise that she knew that, at that point, I was not going to see any other point of view and I would learn about the station of Manifestations of God at another time.

I think that this is an interesting quotation

"O handmaid of God! The prayers which were revealed to ask for healing apply both to physical and spiritual healing. Recite them, then, to heal both the soul and the body. If healing is right for the patient, it will certainly be granted; but for some ailing persons, healing would only be the cause of other ills, and therefore wisdom doth not permit an affirmative answer to the prayer."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 161)

armin · 12-09-2011, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

Okay what should I do? What attitudes should I "pray" for, besides praying for this person.........

I don't think there's anything you need to do CP. In fact, in regards to doing something about yourself and your reaction, what you need to do is exactly nothing! The point is that nothing others do or say can, or should, affect you in a negative way. So I'd say pray for firmness and steadfastness. There will come a point and a time that nothing can upset you or make you defensive about your faith and believes. The real truth needs no defending, it shines itself

Pray for that person and take it easy on yourself, situations like this should not be an issue so work towards that goal.

MAWillsey · 12-10-2011, 03:49 AM

Cambridge or Harvard, one of them did a study of hospital patients and recovery. Using prayer groups to pray for some and not other. The conclusion was they could not find a link between prayer for others and increase of helpful results.

IMHO, prayer is for giving us the mental strength to accept what is.

It is acceptable to prayer as it is considered a form of communication or commune with God.

I imagine the other person is simply extolling the power of God. As far as healing is considered, for an example, I recently watched a program on all the people who believed that their ability to sustain humor helped cure their cancer, we believe what we want.

If prayer was as powerful as some believe than I imagine we would see many thousands year old people huddled over in prayer, staying off death.

The only beneficial prayers IMHO are ones which make us grow in maturity and fortitude in order to become more loving and forgiving.

12-09-2011, 05:02 AM	#1
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,616	What am I doing here? About Miracles? Someone I am close to who is Catholic prayed recently about a skin ailment, that it not be severe, that it go away and/or that the vacation about to be embarked on would not be a problem as a result. After the successful vacation and going to a dermatologist it was discovered the rash was actually shingles and was even in the healing stage and there had been no nerve involvement and this rarely goes so well. This person concluded that due to that prayer God had done this and it had happened that way because of the prayer. This is a problem for me. I feel that the person implies by telling me this that God answers their prayers "more" than other people, my Faith is better than yours, that "I should have gone on that vacation, see!", that God can be expected to be asked and grant his/her requests, and that this kind of miracle is the point of faith. If I had said the prayer my reaction would be God really might have done this, but maybe it would have turned out this way anyhow. I would not be crowing and seeing it as a confirmation of my beliefs. I would even consider that maybe it would have never gotten that bad, and due to where it was on the body, that it would not have ever gotten bad, gee, maybe God did do it. Operative word, maybe, unless it was to another Baha'i that I was close too, but I have the idea we would still not be certain/sure/positive God did this for/to me. To me if I did that my behavior would be superstitious. One part of this I agree with is that by turning to God, it did seem to be okay to go on the trip, that the intuition seemed to indicate rather than go to a doctor, it was okay to go on the trip. That I don't have a problem with, so much..... I'm not asking for advice about what to do, I will figure what me will do myself. I am asking what do you *see* me doing? What does my thinking and reactions to this say? Do you agree or am I expecting someone to be like me or is that an example, maybe a muddy one of superstitious behavior? To me this is related to the focus on miraculous miracles. I think miracles are a daily occurrence. I am not sure I should focus so on any of them too much so to speak? Keep doing what I'm doing and keep my faith on this Faith. Who says I'm supposed to get what I want?

12-09-2011, 11:17 AM	#3
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,616	Thank you! I need the word you used defensive. I am just stunned when this happens with this person which is does a lot. I'm having a hard time just accepting this right now.........if you say more I would be grateful........ Okay what should I do? What attitudes should I "pray" for, besides praying for this person.........

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12-09-2011, 09:51 AM	#2
armin Senior Member Joined: Mar 2011 From: san diego Posts: 141	I feel like you're reacting defensively and I think you know what that means yourself. In regards to the story the way that person is twisting the reality and convincing him/herself that this was some sort of miracle shows his/her lack of understanding and comprehension about religion in general and how God relates to it and us, this is my opinion of course. The best a rational person in this situation could say is a 50/50 scenario. Had that person been diagnosed with the disease beforehand and then after praying got better, then I'd say that person has the right to believe a miracle was the cause and no one else would have the right to say otherwise; of course we could doubt it but we would have no reasonable reason to say that is not the case. Also, I think it is not right to expect miracles to happen or to look for confirmation of our faith. If an incident happens to have such effects, and this story obviously is not one, then great. I do consider this person somewhat superstitious but more so I would say the person is just irrational.

12-09-2011, 12:13 PM	#4
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,058	I had shingles once .. it was contagious and I had it treated at the time there was an odd pattern around the nerves and so on.. Prayer of course is always a good thing and seeing the doctor is a good thing.. You were taking care of yourself.. Sometimes our physical condition symptoms subside and then flare up again. I think thanking the person for their prayers and concern for you is fine..accepting their prayer as a great miracle in and of itself may inflate their ego..God heals.

12-09-2011, 12:40 PM	#5
Pollwr Senior Member Joined: Jun 2009 From: earth Posts: 311	I really don't think you are likely to impact on your friend's belief's regarding healing with reason. If they are a valued friend, I am sure they will need your support when the prayed for healing to order does not come. I had a born-again Christian friend who was part of a very enthusiastic group who believed that healing would come when prayed for. His mother got ill and he prayed, and prayed and prayed. When she did not get better some members of his group started to imply that he wasn't sincere or good enough or there was something he was doing wrong. It was so sad to see his struggle with his faith. I was able to be there and offer him Bahá'í prayers, which he seemed to be pleased to accept. I never made the mistake of guaranteeing him healing for his mother because I did not have the right to. Had I done this I think he would have become a Bahá'í there and then, only to be disappointed again. It would have been a false promise. I remember when I was a teenager attending Church and Bahá'í class. I once went to the very dear lady at the Bahá'í class and said that I felt that all Manifestations of God were good but Jesus was the best, the main one. She smiled and said that Yes, Jesus was very important. I sort of knew that she was not in total agreement but she did not argue. Looking back, I realise that she knew that, at that point, I was not going to see any other point of view and I would learn about the station of Manifestations of God at another time. I think that this is an interesting quotation "O handmaid of God! The prayers which were revealed to ask for healing apply both to physical and spiritual healing. Recite them, then, to heal both the soul and the body. If healing is right for the patient, it will certainly be granted; but for some ailing persons, healing would only be the cause of other ills, and therefore wisdom doth not permit an affirmative answer to the prayer." (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 161)

12-10-2011, 03:49 AM	#7
MAWillsey 04/04/2005 Joined: Aug 2011 From: North Carolina, USA Posts: 43	Cambridge or Harvard, one of them did a study of hospital patients and recovery. Using prayer groups to pray for some and not other. The conclusion was they could not find a link between prayer for others and increase of helpful results. IMHO, prayer is for giving us the mental strength to accept what is. It is acceptable to prayer as it is considered a form of communication or commune with God. I imagine the other person is simply extolling the power of God. As far as healing is considered, for an example, I recently watched a program on all the people who believed that their ability to sustain humor helped cure their cancer, we believe what we want. If prayer was as powerful as some believe than I imagine we would see many thousands year old people huddled over in prayer, staying off death. The only beneficial prayers IMHO are ones which make us grow in maturity and fortitude in order to become more loving and forgiving.