MAWillsey

(Edit, removed content as it really wasn't productive, I apologize to all that I may have offended, I'm truly sorry.)

I'm sorry if this came off as I rant, I'm not angry but anxious and concerned and I strongly believe errors are being made, which will greatly slow the growth of the Unity of all people.

cire perdue

It seems that you say if only we would do things this way then we could get more people into the Faith. We could do all that you suggest and it would drive people out of the Faith and may attract fewer. What about the Persians? God has purposely designed the Faith as it is. It is happening just as Christianity did.

Bluntly, I do think you are overestimating our "worship" of Baha'u'llah. I do not worship Him, to me He is the intercession between me and God. Baha'is know that. We may blur it, but I pray to God when I say my obligatory prayers. Do you think about grandparents as much as you do your parents? Baha'u'llah is our Father in this day. That is what would be a shame to blur into accepting all the other Manifestations. It would in my opinion lead to more of people thinking they can do what they want to do and don't have to change, rather than being guided by God's purpose for them. The purpose of religion is to provide change and growth. Do you think raising children well is not a painful process? I like being in the spritual arms of my current heavenly Father, I cannot conceive of being in God's arms.

I think I have felt exactly as you have about an issue or so. It reveals the terrible angst you have about the lack of growth, people's lack of concern, the continued faltering of the world's ecology. There is fear that we have failed. We may have. However it IS possible that things could be as they are, not because Baha'is have failed, but because the rest of the world has absolutely refused to stop in their tracks and consider they might need to think about something serious for a moment.

Yesterday during the long obligatory prayer I felt like I had achieved "union with God". I said, well we don't believe in that, and it occurred to me that I was feeling the presence of God, at least I thought it was. It was not union. It was actually more than I felt on Pilgrimage. It did not last, it may have only come from me, but it was so special.

Fear is only going to stifle us and have us isolating from things. Thank goodness I don't have to run the Faith, make decisions about it, or tell people what it needs to do. That really has already been decided and is in other hands. If it is wrong, it is not my fault or responsibility. It is important to put fear, even justified fear away, because it is not the proper avenue for change. It does not help you, it will not help others. In this day I truly believe achieving true spritual contentment and serenity (I hate the word happy as is used very badly now) is the most important job we have. That will gladden our heart and it WILL attract people. I have seen more new Baha'is in the last 2 years than in the previous 30.

PS I am a Baha'i and that is important to say and more importantly it is a doing/being. Hiding the light or saying I'm a Christian to Christians seems manipulative to me.

tonyfish58

MAWillsey - Baha'u'llah has written about God

"He, in truth, hath, throughout eternity, been one in His Essence, one in His attributes, one in His works. Any and every comparison is applicable only to His creatures, and all conceptions of association are conceptions that belong solely to those that serve Him. Immeasurably exalted is His Essence above the descriptions of His creatures. He, alone, occupieth the Seat of transcendent majesty, of supreme and inaccessible glory. The birds of men's hearts, however high they soar, can never hope to attain the heights of His unknowable Essence. It is He Who hath called into being the whole of creation, Who hath caused every created thing to spring forth at His behest."

Furthermore, Bahá'u'lláh, addressing God in a prayer, says:

"Exalted, immeasurably exalted art Thou above any attempt to measure the greatness of Thy Cause, above any comparison that one may seek to make, above the efforts of the human tongue to utter its import! From everlasting Thou hast existed, alone with no one else beside Thee, and wilt, to everlasting, continue to remain the same, in the sublimity of Thine essence and the inaccessible heights of Thy glory.

And when Thou didst purpose to make Thyself known unto men, Thou didst successively reveal the Manifestations of Thy Cause, and ordained each to be a sign of Thy Revelation among Thy people, and the Day-Spring of Thine invisible Self amidst Thy creatures..."

God is unknowable, to communicate with God you must do it through the manifestation of this day.

God has appointed Baha'u'llah to be that mediator to whom we must turn to and pray through.

We are told that we can even direct our prayers through Abdul'baha.

To submit to Baha'u'llah is to submit to God and all the prophets of the past.

Regards Tony

Rani

I'm not sure why but I still disagree to an extent in saying God is totally unknowable. Yes, he is called the unknowable Essence. To me, I think that means He is immeasurably exalted, as the scripture says, for us to adequately comprehend Him in His fullness.
However the quotes below testify that we have been given capacity to know Him.

Yes, it is through His Manifestation and the Holy Writings we've been given that we can grow to know what God is like.

It may be my own little issue, but I prefer to dwell on the quotes below that talk of our capacity to know and love God.
Because if there were no chance of a feeling of connection with God, then religion would not hold much for me.
From these quotes I don't believe I need to feel that.


'Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him -

- a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation....'
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 65)


From among all created things He hath singled out for His special favor the pure, the gem-like reality of man, and invested it with a unique capacity of knowing Him and of reflecting the greatness of His glory.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 77)

'..He Who is the eternal King -- may the souls of all that dwell within the mystic Tabernacle be a sacrifice unto Him -- hath spoken: "He hath known God who hath known himself.'

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 101)

tonyfish58

That is a fair enough statement.

I think any reflection we have of God is only by knowing the attributes of the Manifestations.

Yes the essence of God is unknowable.

The Hidden Words are good to reflect on this - The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

The first Hidden word gives the criteria for the recognition of the Manifestation

1. O SON OF SPIRIT!

My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

The secound Hidden Word gives the way to achieve this

2. O SON OF SPIRIT!

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

They then go on to the how & why of the Love of God and then how to achieve this.

All in such a few words - What a great resource

Cheers Tony

MAWillsey

Rani,
'Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him' -

Thanks for quote Rani!

I like this quote, I firmly believe God is unknowable, in we cannot know what God looks like or comprehend the mind of God. But I also firmly believe that saying God is unknowable is not to say God doesn't 'hear' us if we speak to God. You cannot say God is all powerful then say, but God cannot hear you if you speak to God. IMHO, the two are separate thing's.

On the quote above, perhaps it also means we can know God in this world when are hearts soar when gazing upon the Grand Canyon, or a rainbow or know the love of a significant other!

(Thanks Jay for helping ground me!)

Regards,
Michael

Rani

Hi Michael,

I did not benefit from seeing your original post, so I'm sorry about that.

If you still have it, feel free to send it to me.

I don't mean to offend anyone, Tony included or especially, but if I can be honest, if I was told all the time that God is not knowable, especially at Baha'i meetings, then I would find it quite depressing and discouraging. Thankfully when I go to meetings, they don't seem to say that.
The whole point of religion is to have a tie of intercourse between the Creator and the created!

Again, by God as the 'Unknowable Essence' I think is meant that He is too big for us to fathom or comprehend totally, as we are the created. It does not mean that we can't have a kind of 'relationship' with Him. It does not mean that we can't know Him to an extent, as that is the very purpose for which we were called into being!

'I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee..'
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 313)

And again, 'He.. chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him'.

It clearly says we have the capacity to know Him. And God created religion, and sent His Messengers as the method by which we would have that tie. Because we are not that innately intelligent or insightful to have clear knowledge without instruction and guidance.

Baha'u'llah repeatedly directs our attention towards God, doesn't He? Trust in God, He says, call Him continually to mind, depend on Him. Does He say 'Depend on Me'? I think it is toward God that He mostly directs our gaze. Although we recognise Him as God's Mouthpiece and Manifestation.

Why else are most of the revealed prayers directed towards God?

So, I don't think Baha'u'llah is the end point if you like, God is. Baha'u'llah is the Intermediary.

I really hope I'm not offending anyone here, but this is important to me too. I don't see my impression of this as being in conflict with the Writings at all.

In that way, I think the Christians have it right.. You go to Church and you are told how much God loves you and Jesus loves you.


(Tony said:' I think any reflection we have of God is only by knowing the attributes of the Manifestations.'

From my perspective, my impression of God is based on what Baha'u'llah says about God. He is continually describing Him in the prayers that are revealed.
And when I read the Writings, I do see Baha'u'llah rebuking people a lot, so He can come across as kind of stern to me, forgive me. Sometimes it's hard for me to know if/ when those stern words are directed at me, or not. For that reason I don't feel any closer to Baha'u'llah than I do to God; As I wasn't born in Baha'u'llah's time or area, I have not seen his Person, so all I have to go on is the revealed Word, really. However I have put my Faith in Baha'u'llah and have accepted Him as the Manifestation of God for this Day for several reasons. I think mostly they are: The continuation of the upholding of certain moral principles and spiritual guidance for life,in His Writings, and my attraction to, and desire to live a certain (good) life. -Somehow I believe I need God in that way. And the inclusiveness of the Baha'i Faith, and it's recognition of both the Divine spark in all of the major religions, and the station of His Messengers.


So, I do think that the christian Fundamentalists are doing something right, as there is so much emphasis on connection to, or acceptance by God through faith in Jesus. In that sense my concept of the relationship between us, the Manifestation and God, is pretty much the same as I had when I was Christian.

I do hope that our Feasts and devotionals will increasingly reflect more joy that is born of that mystical relationship between us and the Creator, which is made possible through His Manifestation on earth.

mirose

The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah and the Holy Writings repeatedly confirm God's love for each of us in very real, practical and deeply spiritual ways.
There is not much more than that to add to this discussion and we are all absolutely right when we recognise and acknowledge this totally indisputable connection and relationship between God and ourselves.
We simply have to come to our own terms of how we each might choose to understand the words "Unknowable Essence".
One way or the other He certainly knows and loves us and asks us to love Him in return.
Nowhere, in any other religion, is this relationship more beautifully and powerfully described. Consider how blessed we are to have accepted the Revelation of Baha'u'llah which bursts with the news of this Loving relationship.

tonyfish58

RANI -I take no offense at all

Each has to find God the way they can - What is good for you is good for you

I have no issue with God being an "Unknowable Essence". I look at Baha'u'llah and His Son Abdul'baha and I can see a small piece of how Great God must be. I feel no matter how much I put these little pieces together to try to figure out what God is, I will never put them together in a way that could do any justice to God. So I do not try.

Thus I pray to God through His chosen Messenger, the One God has chosen to represent Him in this Age, to bring in the promised Day of God.

I get my appreciation of God by studying the lives of the Prophets and Abdul'baha. There lives are an amazing sacrifice for us all. When I read their stories and their devotion to God, I too share in that love for God. I have no Idea what/who God is, but my love is inspired by their attributes.

So it is a bit of an oxymoron I suppose. We see a lot of what God must posses in the virtues we see in the Prophets and we are told that these are miniscule in regards to how much bigger/greater God actually is.

I just stand in awe as to how big God must be, but am in no way worried that I can not know or fathom God as such. We have the examples of the Prophets and the life of Abdul'baha and through them I love what God must be.

I hope I am no offending you for having this conversation, as I said each has to find a path for them selves, there is no one path for all.

Regards Tony

spirit

I agree with Rani on this I don't like when Bahais say we can't Know God....our life is about knowing God, not through our mind, but when we begin to understand our mind is limited, this invites reality/God to fill the space that was consumed with itself!

Rani

Oh, no, of course I am not offended at all, thanks.. It had occurred to me that we all have different backgrounds and different religious experiences prior to becoming baha'is, and even just our own individual personalities and make-up, and all of these can affect our approach to, and our understanding of things regarding our Faith.

I remember talking with a baha'i woman years ago, and she was telling me about how she came to join the Faith. She had been an atheist, so the fact that Baha'is believe in God was initially a hindrance for her. When she came across His title as the Unknowable Essence, it helped her feel more comfortable with joining, seeing as she'd had difficulty with the whole concept of God for a long time.

Conversely, just recently while discussing something totally different, a mostly email friend had raised the fact that for a long time she actually felt a bit scared of Baha'u'llah. She had been raised in a persian baha'i family, but she said that her Mum, although very sincere in her Faith, seemed to convey the idea that Baha'u'llah was the One who did the judging. She said it was only when she read The Revelation of Baha'u'llah, and went and served at the World Centre when she was 30, that she learned more about Baha'u'llah and who really He was. Now she says, she prays to both Baha'u'llah and God, whereas before she felt more comfortable praying to Abdu'l-Baha.
So, it can be different for all of us.

But I also think it's important to look at all of the Writings, as I'm sure you do.
Which is why I wouldn't want to focus on that aspect myself, but also on the verses about our capacity to know Him. And now I'm just repeating myself, so I'll retire for the night.

Blessings and regards, Rani.

Thank you all for your responses.(!)

tonyfish58

Spirit & Rani - This topic is a lot deeper than we give it credit for - The source of the unknowable essence is Baha'u'llah, not the Baha'is - Link to topic - Bahá'u'lláh: Manifestation of God (Baha'u'llah,Bahaullah)

He, in truth, hath, throughout eternity, been one in His Essence, one in His attributes, one in His works. Any and every comparison is applicable only to His creatures, and all conceptions of association are conceptions that belong solely to those that serve Him. Immeasurably exalted is His Essence above the descriptions of His creatures. He, alone, occupieth the Seat of transcendent majesty, of supreme and inaccessible glory. The birds of men's hearts, however high they soar, can never hope to attain the heights of His unknowable Essence. It is He Who hath called into being the whole of creation, Who hath caused every created thing to spring forth at His behest.1

Furthermore, Bahá'u'lláh, addressing God in a prayer, says:

Exalted, immeasurably exalted art Thou above any attempt to measure the greatness of Thy Cause, above any comparison that one may seek to make, above the efforts of the human tongue to utter its import! From everlasting Thou hast existed, alone with no one else beside Thee, and wilt, to everlasting, continue to remain the same, in the sublimity of Thine essence and the inaccessible heights of Thy glory.

Link to Know & Love God - Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 74-76

I think you have to look into how opposites attract. For example

We are told that we are to Know and Love God - the reason for our existence.

At the same time there is ample writings that say God is an unknowable essence and we are to Fear Him... Link to quotes re fear - Compilation on the "Fear of God"

Fear & love

Unknowable & Knowledge Of

IMHO - When we learn what the Fear of God is, we are then able to increase in our Love for God. When we acknowledge that God is above our limited understanding, we gain the capacity to know more about God.

It is interesting and over the years I have given it some thought and have drawn no conclusion, but as a result here is a poem re opposites

Heartache, Happiness,
Agony, Ecstasy,
Sorrow, Joy.
Loneliness, Reunion.
Darkness, Light.
Concealed, Revealed.
Opposites attract,
negatives highlight positives.
Pain brings happiness,
tribulation brings Joy.
Oh God may this life be full of negatives,
so we can learn to appreciate the positives.

Tony Bristow-Stagg B.E. 148

Regards Tony

Rani

I actually think there's a difference between saying he's unknowable, and calling Him the Unknowable Essence.
I actually don't have any problem with the reference to Him being the Unknowable Essence, 'cos to me it means the core of Him I cannot comprehend, because it is beyond my capacity as one of the created.

However, I don't ever read (in the Writings) that He is 'unknowable', simply like that. God being Unknowable in his Essence is a different thing to my understanding.

If it sounds like I'm hair-splitting, I apologise; but the reason I don't like 'unknowable' on it's own is because it sounds to me that we cannot have a 'relationship' with Him, which I believe we can, even though that relationship might be like that of the child to the Father, or the servant to the Master; the confider to the Confidant; the dependent one to the Almighty.
-through faith in and acceptance of His Manifestation.

Baha'u'llah is a Mirror of God, but God is the source of everything; Everything was created through Him.

Thank you for the links, - I haven't referred to them as yet, due to time.

Re fear of God, again I haven't viewed the quotes as yet, but I have no issue with that. Fear is just like a very healthy respect and deference, like knowing who's boss. (!) There's more to it than that no doubt. I don't find this kind of healthy 'fear', and love toward God, which we might describe as trust, obedience and attraction toward Him, as contradictory or as having any inherent conflict between the two.

tonyfish58

Rani - Sorry for the misunderstanding - when I said this - "The source of the unknowable essence is Baha'u'llah" I meant Baha'u'llah revealed the writings not man - Baha'u'llah put this on paper as such.

Cheers & Regards Tony