cire perdue

No one dictating to me will attract me to another Faith, nor fear of Hell, or being wrong. In fact it is a guarantee that I will stay in this Faith. All that is fear. The only time I have felt drawn to another Faith was when I felt so very loved and regarded by Muslim men who were so kind and loving as to make me weak in the knees. The site of one of the men's wives in a chidur was all it took to bring me to my senses. There is not a way that I could embrace something that made me feel so good at the expense of the other half of humanity.

I went to a Baptist Student Union recently as a result of visiting friends with sons that age. The minister who spoke was dressed cool. He talked about how being saved no longer meant once saved, always saved. That it was a lifestyle and that it meant remaining in the Church. I was so impressed and heartened that afterward I went to tell him how much that meant to me. He barely acknowledged me. I naively thought that if he loved God that he would accept anyone who found joy in sharing that with him. I had no intention of telling him anything of the Faith at all. It was quite a let down. I thought how great if I could respect this man, not want to change him, and both celebrate God's love. He may have known I was a Baha'i due to the company I was in, but he had no love for me. I was too old.

That happened to me in Baptist Vacation Bible School when I was still a Christian. I must have been 10. We gathered in the sanctuary with the minister. He made the call for those who loved Christ to come to him at the altar. We all held back, but I felt so drawn. I wanted to go. I fought with myself to go. Finally another boy went first, so I was next and there was a big gap before the next and the next and then eventually all were there. However what I did even being second was a big deal. He of course was very praising as it happend, but then when it was completed he wanted to know who was I, WHO WERE MY PARENTS, DID I GO to church here. Then he lost interest in me.

Iconodule, I am sorry, but that is all I see you offering me. CONDITIONAL LOVE. Baha'is are not here for that. We will love you if your are gay or a minister. We accept your religion. The Faith would be attractive if it only, ONLY offered that. However it answers all the questions I can think of about all the religions of the world. It has made me a better person, and you want me to accept what you believe? I can't help but feel we are disdained by you and it is hard not to reciprocate with the same. However the power of this Faith which is the Holy Spirit has made me a better person, though I may fail at times. If I do it is not the Faith's fault. You demonstrate nothing I want, and fewer people are willing to want this as time goes by. Perhaps you should reevaulate your own self rather than criticize the Baha'i Faith.

Iconodule

Now I don't know where you find conditional love within Orthodoxy by any stretch I find it quite the opposite. to live in Christianity is to live the Christian life in all aspects it is to be deified into a new being, IE theosis and this involves immitating Christ in every respect. Now perhaps because of my overly critical tone you think I am not loving or indeed orthodoxy is not loving, if one wants to go to that conclusion one can, though I dissagree. I critique because I seriously think there is a huge problem with bahai. You all critique Christianity because you think theres a serious problem with it. Does that mean you hate me? By your logic, maybe. But by logic, no.
Now Do I disdain the bahai? No, but I do disdain the things taught by Bahai and find them abominable. Like you find the glorified ressurection ghastly and agree with the gnostics. Now you say you have the holy spirit. I say the church has the Holy spirit and you were never inspired by the Holy spirit. What spirit were then you inspired by? None perhaps, or maybe an angel of light who is not all they appear to be. Now if you are willing to engage in intellectual discusssion instead of these emotional games and pleading, do so. Otherwise you are simply demonstrating my point that the bahai can't handle challanges.

cire perdue

Gee that sure feels like intellectual/emotional blackmail? If you want answers there is literature on the internet for free. We can answer challenges, there is just no point in doing so with someone who does not want an answer except so he can say, "You are wrong." I have more loving kind ways to spend my time and energy. This site is not here for giving you a purpose. It is for other people and Baha'is to discuss things, not be in academic duels. You do not even have true academics here. WE are all amateurs. You are shooting fish in a barrel. The professionals don't come here very often, if at all. I do not belive I have to answer challenges. Your challenges are all, all in the intellectual realm. The answers are spiritual. No thanks. Even winning an argument with you would be a brief thing. I would rather pray.

cire perdue

Why don't you challenge God and ask God why your Faith is being treated this way when it is the only true way on earth. Why did He let all this happen? Don't ask us, we don't have any answers for you, obviously. Go write a book or paper, please. You are not going to win any of us at all. In fact I am less interested, however this discussion stuff seems addictive, I may have trouble keeping my mouth shut. Uh, fingers...fingers....stilll............

cire perdue

14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (King James Bible, John)

Disdain is what is felt by others, saying you are not disdainful does not mean you aren't. When you are careful to spell Baha'i as we do, then that could indicate less disdain.

cire perdue

Perhaps I am projecting my faults on others, but I have been arguing with Iconodule, and I am not going to do that again. This is the way the old world has done things. If someone truly wants answers they will seek them. Could Baha'is have held back on seeking Baha'u'llah?

Iconodule

Indeed like most of the internet we are all amatures, doesn't mean we can't be smart about it. So please instead of complaining about my presence, prove that bahai can actually deal with criticism and not just simply say "why can't you go away and leave us alone."

cire perdue

I do not care for the way you are treating me and others. I think it is a mistake after a certain point to dialogue.

Iconodule

The way I am treating you? Im sorry are you the bahai religion incarnate or something?

armin

One Baha'i having a certain perspective on other religions or any other subject does not mean all Baha'is share that perspective. CP may be right or wrong, but generalizing his personal opinions on all Bahai's is not right. I personally have nothing against Christians of any sect, and don't see any need to criticize them/you. Christianity is the truth and we merely believe in the continuation of that truth. You can disagree but that does not put you at odds with me. The part I do have problem with other religions in general is where humans have given themselves the right to branch out, divide, and tailor the religion according to their own believes and needs. This is about the application and the role humans have played in misleading the Christian faith, in my opinion.

You can disagree with the Baha'i faith just as you can disagree with many other sects of Christianity. In the end my point is there is no real enmity here between us and approaching any other belief system with enmity, from Baha'is and others, is just wrong. Faith is to lead us to salvation and unity and prosperity not the opposite. Speaking for myself, I don't see a reason to go to other faiths sites/forums to argue against them. I believe I know the real truth and I don't see any reason to rebuke others beliefs. Where I can I will help and if that is not the case I will hold back from causing rifts among people. To me that's how the real truth works.

P.S. this was directed at you, CP, myself and everyone else. Nothing personal here.

BruceDLimber

I do have to agree that if you'd at least have the courtesy to spell Baha'i correctly, that could indicate considerably more courtesy on your part, Iconodule!

Peace,

Bruce

Iconodule

It is no insult Bruce, thats just simply the way I have spelt it. Much like its no intended insult on your behalf when you read something of what I have said "you don't believe in the Trinity" and then say you do, completely knowing you reject how the trinity has been defined for at least 1700 years.

cire perdue

The members of this forum feel that it is insulting of you not to spell Baha'i as we do. Baha'i. You have been on this Forum much too long to continue to disregard this. If you continue to spell it incorrectly, then it is because you choose to be insulting, you will get respect if you give respect.

Of course we reject the Trinity you silly boy, we are a different religion. Gee, you expected us to accept the Trinity? That's funny. Your comparison is interesting. It is extremely erroneous EVEN to a booby like me.

LordOfGoblins

You mean to say that it is offensive to you that people do not accept the trinity? So then, you must go through life with a huge bee in your bonnet especially since surely most of the people that you meet in every day circumstances are not proud upstanding adherants of the Christian doctrines. Unless you only live and associate inside the circle of your own church??
What a bizzare comparison.

Iconodule

# Armin, there is no real emnity between us? I suppose we won't ever try to kill each other, but certiantly there is great conflict between what Christianity has always tuaght and what Bahai has always taught.
# But Cire, your own prophet said you accept the trinity.
# I mean to say it is offensive when people claim to believe in the trinity to appear to be in union with Christians (and believe me baha'i have done this) but completely reject the historic defintion and accept the mutilation by Baha'u'llah.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule It is no insult Bruce, thats just simply the way I have spelt it.

Which way is simply incorrect, as several of us have already pointed out to you--especially if you don't even bother to caplitalize it!

Quote:

Much like its no intended insult on your behalf when you read something of what I have said "you don't believe in the Trinity" and then say you do, completely knowing you reject how the trinity has been defined for at least 1700 years.

The fact remains that the trinity as expressed in Christianity is a man-made doctrine invented centuries after the time of Christ--and indeed, one which caused in the church a major split which remains to this day! I have an article detailing all this which I'll be most happy to send you if you'd like to see it; just ask me.

Peace,

Bruce

LordOfGoblins

Bruce please post your info about the trinity (essay?) in the thread I created if you wish to expound further on it. It would make things easier. THankyou.

cire perdue

IT appears that if you talk about emotional, spritual, or intuitive issues with those who are only able to be intellectual, then you are wasting your breath.

Iconodule

The fact the trinity is a man made doctrine? huh. Lets see the Bishops of the church were the successors of the apostles, they were to be caretakers of the church as Saint Paul alludes to. They had authority to decide on things (though not invent new doctrines) and since the earliest times they have attested to the deity of Jesus Christ the father and the son. So When was this man made doctrine man made? At the council of Nicaea? 300 Bishops from all over the world got together to make this doctrine on purpose? Really? Men who had suffered were willing to compromise the faith? IM sorry but this illusion of the trinity being man made is clearly misguided as even the plurality of persons within God can be seen in the Old testament as some pre Christian Jews recognised.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule The fact the trinity is a man made doctrine?

Iconodule and Lord of Goblins, as I've already posted elsewhere, I have online an article explaining all this in detail, but it's too lengthy to post here (it would be an 18-part message).

Simply send me a private message (by clicking on my name) supplying me with your email address, and I'll be most happy to send you the article!

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Iconodule

Please post your responce in the Trinity Forum establishing the trinity is man made.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule Please post your responce [sic] in the Trinity Forum establishing the trinity is man made.

Kindly try reading simple English: I JUST SAID it's far too long to post--here or in any other forum!

If you'd like to see it, simply click my name and send me a private message with your email address.

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce