Yeshua

Dear Ahanu

Thank you! An excellent and well-researched reply.

The latest possible "mainstream" date I've read for Clement is AD 96 under Domitian. This has been the "accepted" date since at least the 1960s or 70s I believe. It has only really been questioned in the 2000s, with a good number of scholars suggesting a date in the 60s or 70s as more probable. I agree with you that this issue has not - and probably will never be fully resolved - however we have a median range of at least 67 AD - 96. Regardless of whether on opts for the later or earlier date (and I have presented both in my posts) Clement is a fundamental source of knowledge on Early Christian theology.

The word used for "ancient" is at most a relative term.

Robinson made a thorough linguistic analysis of this word in Early Christian texts and his conclusion runs as follows. This text that you quoted follows on immediately upon the previous 1 in which Clement appeals to 1 Corinthians:

"...Evidently in the context the meaning of apxaíav (ancient) is determined by the phrase "the apxn of the Gospel" which is precisely that used by Paul to the Philippians of the period when he first preached to them - after an interval of only a decade. Similarly in Acts 15:7 "apxaiwv" is used at the Council of Jerusalem of the "early days" less than twenty years previously, and Manson a Christian of "from the early days" is described by Luke in the early 60s as an "apxaioc"..."


"Apxaiav" is thus a relative term.

Thomas J Herron comments:

"...The Corinthian Chrch is "apxaiav" not simply because of the passage of time, but because it is old when compared to more recently established communities. It may also be seen as old when one recalls that the entire Christian movement is not that ancient itself, whether it is circa 65 years old if I Clement is written in the mid-nineties, or whether it is only 40 years old in AD 70..."


Thus "apxiav" (ancient) does not rule out a 60s date since this phrase was used as far back as the 40s AD! The use of this word I think, with its very short time span meaning in the Early Church, I think makes it most likely that thew Corinthian Church is about 20 years old or therabouts which would give us a date of 67-74 AD. If it can be used to refer to a decade or just 20 years, and the Church at Corinth was founded by Paul in AD 50 then AD 67 would be 17 years later, which is well within the age range of "ancient" or "old" as it was used within Early Christianity - the shortest range for the phrase being 10 years and the longest about 25 years old.

Thus I find it more likely, coupled with all the internal evidence, that 1 Clement was written in the late AD 60s or in the 70s AD, as recent scholarship has seemed to "edge towards". However I am open to AD 90 odd, since "ancient"/"old" is a term so vague in the Early Church that it could be anything from 10-40 years. If I founded a tennis club in 2005 and in 2015 wanted to write a message to the original members congratulating them on a decade of service and existence for the club, would I not be justified in calling them the "old" members? Given the club's short 10 year existence, this would be justified since in the short time-span they are "old" compared say to those who came in 2014. In the Early Church in Corinth which by 90 AD was only about 40 years old, is it not reasonable to conclude that even in 70 AD with the Church in Corinth 20 years old, the Church In Rome would be referring to its as an "old" Church given the very short time span of the existence of the Church as of then? 2005-2015 is a fair time to some, and look how many changes can take place in just 10 years time.

I see "old" in this way, although I admit that the word could refer to anything from 10-40 years. Its thus not a strong footing I think to substantiate any date.

Regardless, Clement is an authoritive and early text.

I will read Carrier's thoughts when I stop studying for law and reply to you!

Yeshua

You flatter me brother! I appreciate your kind words very much!

And I agree that a loving discussion between members of different religions is to be preferred to vicious debate which is not only outwith the bonds of revealed religious charity, but is a denial of the unity which exists between human beings as brothers irrespective of our religious profession.


"...For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark...And so with loving heart We also invite to this sacred cause all who are not of this fold but reverence and worship God and strive in good faith to obey His commands...We repeat this prayer, as does the whole Catholic world in union with Us. We are spurred by a burning love for all men... Come! This long-desired unity, fostered and fed by brotherly love, will beget a great peace. This is the peace "which surpasses all understanding," since its birthplace is in heaven. It is the same peace which Christ promised to men of good will...Let all be of one mind, since--as all know well--in unity there is greater strength..."

- Pope John XXIII, AD PETRI CATHEDRAM (On Truth, Unity and Peace), 1959


“……Speaking generally of the dialogue which the Church of today must take up with a great renewal of fervor, We would say that it must be readily conducted with all men of good will both inside and outside the Church. Our purpose is merely to send you a sincere message, as between brothers and members of a common family. We do so in fulfillment of Our duty and with no other thought in mind than to open Our heart to you and to strengthen more and more and render more joyful that union of faith and love which happily exists between us. The Church can regard no one as excluded from its motherly embrace, no one as outside the scope of its motherly care. It has no enemies except those who wish to make themselves such. Its catholicity is no idle boast. It was not for nothing that it received its mission to foster love, unity and peace among men…. It comprises first of all those men who worship the one supreme God, whom we also worship. We would mention first the Jewish people, who still retain the religion of the Old Testament, and who are indeed worthy of our respect and love. Then we have those worshipers who adhere to other monotheistic systems of religion, especially the Muslim religion. We do well to admire these people for all that is good and true in their worship of God. And finally we have the followers of the great Afro-Asiatic religions…We do not wish to turn a blind eye to the spiritual and moral values of the various non-Christian religions, for we desire to join with them in promoting and defending common ideals in the spheres of religious liberty, human brotherhood, education, culture, social welfare, and civic order. Dialogue is possible in all these great projects, which are our concern as much as theirs, and we will not fail to offer opportunities for discussion in the event of such an offer being favorably received in genuine, mutual respect…These then are the lines of our dialogue. But before we engage in conversation with our brothers, we address ourselves lovingly to our Heavenly Father in earnest prayer and great confidence…A spirit of bitter criticism, defiance, and arrogance is far removed from that charity which nourishes and preserves the spirit of fellowship, harmony, and peace. It completely vitiates dialogue, turning it into argument, disagreement and dissension-a sad state of affairs, but by no means uncommon…And so We end this Our first encyclical on a note of great joy in the union of our spirits which has its origin in Christ. As your father and brother We bestow upon you, in the name of the immortal God, Our apostolic blessing, and gladly extend it to the whole Church and to all mankind…”

- POPE PAUL VI, ECCLESIAM SUAM (PAPAL ENCYCLICAL), AUGUST 6, 1964


"...I want to accustom all the inhabitants, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and nonbelievers, to look on me as their brother, the universal brother. Already they're calling this house "the fraternity" (khaoua in Arabic) -- about which I'm delighted -- and realizing that the poor have a brother here -- not only the poor, though: all men...Above all, always see Jesus in every person, and consequently treat each one not only as an equal and as a brother or sister, but also with great humility, respect and selfless generosity..."

- Blessed Charles de Foucauld (1858- 1916),
Catholic mystic and martyr

tonyfish58

Bruce - Thanks for the article

When you see the History of how the Trinity was formulated you have to wonder why it held on to so dearly these days.

You would also wonder why it would not be easy to accept Baha'u'llah's explanation of the Relationship between God, the Holy Spirit and a Prophet. All is does is weld the Bible back into context as a whole.

Thanks & lets hope more will take up the offer.

P/S I found it easier to read when I placed the Footnotes at the end of the document & not at the bottom of each page.

Regards Tony

tonyfish58

Yeshua - When I read the quotes you insert from the Popes that came after Baha'u'llah, I can not help seeing that they have indeed made a connection to the Power of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Without knowing it it is quite possible that the Power of Baha'u'llah's words are guiding this side of Christianity unto an inevitable union with the Faith of Baha'u'llah

Regards & Cheers Tony

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyfish58 Bruce - Thanks for the article. When you see the History of how the Trinity was formulated you have to wonder why it held on to so dearly these days.

Allah-u-Abha, Tony!

I'm very glad you found the article helpful! :-)

All the best,

Bruce

Yeshua

How about John Paul II


"...At the dawn of a new era, there is growing hope that relationships between people will be increasingly inspired by the ideal of a truly universal brotherhood. Unless this ideal is shared, there will be no way to ensure a stable peace...The followers of the different religions are ever more conscious…that a relationship with the one God, the common Father of all, cannot fail to bring about a greater sense of human brotherhood and a more fraternal life together...You have been given the mission of opening new paths to fraternity among peoples, building a single human family… A civilization of love and truth can only be built if openness to others extends to the relations between peoples, nations and cultures. May this appeal resound in the heart of everyone: Love other peoples as you love your own!...We must overcome our fear of the future. But we will not be able to overcome it completely unless we do so together…The answer to fear… is the common effort to build the civilization of love, founded on the universal values of peace, solidarity, justice and liberty. And the soul of the civilization of love is the culture of freedom, the freedom of individuals and the freedom of nations, lived in self-giving solidarity and responsibility…We have within us the capacities for wisdom and virtue. With these gifts, and with the help of God’s grace, we can build in the next century and the next millennium a civilization worthy of the human person, a true culture of freedom. We can and must do so! And in doing so, we shall see that the tears of this century have prepared the ground for a new springtime of the human spirit...Faith is the foundation and love the great ‘lever’ by which it is possible to construct a society that is more fraternal and united...Your efforts to construct a future more worthy of humanity, open to the hope and the richness of ideals, is always very difficult. In the love which comes from God however is found a source of irresistible power...Be in every way generous builders of the civilization of love...It is obvious that a fundamental defect… is at the root of contemporary economics and materialistic civilization...The barriers of mutual suspicion and mistrust must be broken down, in order to build a new civilization of love...To every person of good will, eager to work tirelessly in the building of a new civilization of love, I say once more: Offer forgiveness and receive peace!...The task before us...is to promote a culture of dialogue. Individually and together, we must show how religious belief inspires peace, encourages solidarity, promotes justice and upholds liberty…Yet there is a need to go further. Greater mutual esteem and growing trust must lead to still more effective and coordinated common action on behalf of the human family…Those of us who are Christians believe that this hope is a gift of the Holy Spirit, who calls us to widen our horizons, to look beyond our own personal needs and the needs of our particular communities, to the unity of the whole human family…As we gather here today, people from many nations representing many of the religions of the world…we…recall the meeting in Assisi [in 1986]…Let me repeat…what I said at the end of that day… ‘The very fact that we have come to Assisi from various parts of the world is in itself a sign of this common path which humanity is called to tread. Either we learn to walk together in peace and harmony, or we drift apart and ruin ourselves and others’...Become craftsmen of a new humanity, where brothers and sisters—members all of the same family—are able at last to live in peace..I wish to repeat to women and men of every language, religion and culture the ancient maxim, ‘Love conquers all’. Yes, dear brothers and sisters throughout the world, in the end love will be victorious! Let everyone be committed to hastening this victory, for it is the deepest hope of every human heart."


- Blessed Pope John Paul II

tonyfish58

Yes - Definitely heading in the right direction

It is a shame the world cannot give credit where credit is due.

These words would be appreciated by Millions of Catholics world wide..

Attribute the source to Baha'u'llah and well the way of the current world is known - I am glad you have recognized the source of these inspirational words and wish you all the best

Cheers Tony

Yeshua

What about the current Pontiff, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI?



"...I implore all men and women of good will to renew their commitment to building a world where all are free to profess their religion or faith, and to express their love of God with all their heart, with all their soul and with all their mind...The contribution of religious communities to society is undeniable. Numerous charitable and cultural institutions testify to the constructive role played by believers in the life of society. More important still is religion’s ethical contribution in the political sphere. Religion is a positive driving force for the building of civil and political society. How can anyone deny the contribution of the world’s great religions to the development of civilization? The sincere search for God has led to greater respect for human dignity. Christian communities, with their patrimony of values and principles, have contributed much to making individuals and peoples aware of their identity and their dignity, the establishment of democratic institutions and the recognition of human rights and their corresponding duties...In a globalized world marked by increasingly multi-ethnic and multi-religious societies, the great religions can serve as an important factor of unity and peace for the human family. On the basis of their religious convictions and their reasoned pursuit of the common good, their followers are called to give responsible expression to their commitment within a context of religious freedom. Amid the variety of religious cultures, there is a need to value those elements which foster civil coexistence, while rejecting whatever is contrary to the dignity of men and women. The public space which the international community makes available for the religions and their proposal of what constitutes a “good life” helps to create a measure of agreement about truth and goodness, and a moral consensus; both of these are fundamental to a just and peaceful coexistence. The leaders of the great religions, thanks to their position, their influence and their authority in their respective communities, are the first ones called to mutual respect and dialogue...For the Church, dialogue between the followers of the different religions represents an important means of cooperating with all religious communities for the common good. The Church herself rejects nothing of what is true and holy in the various religions...The path to take is dialogue and the common pursuit of truth in different areas of life, since, as Saint Thomas Aquinas would say, “every truth, whoever utters it, comes from the Holy Spirit”...The year 2011 marks the twenty-fifth anniversary of the World Day of Prayer for Peace convened in Assisi in 1986 by Pope John Paul II. On that occasion the leaders of the great world religions testified to the fact that religion is a factor of union and peace, and not of division and conflict. The memory of that experience gives reason to hope for a future in which all believers will see themselves, and will actually be, agents of justice and peace...Religion is defended by defending the rights and freedoms of religious communities. The leaders of the great world religions and the leaders of nations should therefore renew their commitment to promoting and protecting religious freedom, and in particular to defending religious minorities; these do not represent a threat to the identity of the majority but rather an opportunity for dialogue and mutual cultural enrichment. Defending them is the ideal way to consolidate the spirit of good will, openness and reciprocity which can ensure the protection of fundamental rights and freedoms in all areas and regions of the world... The world needs God. It needs universal, shared ethical and spiritual values, and religion can offer a precious contribution to their pursuit, for the building of a just and peaceful social order at the national and international levels...Religious freedom is an authentic weapon of peace, with an historical and prophetic mission. Peace brings to full fruition the deepest qualities and potentials of the human person, the qualities which can change the world and make it better. It gives hope for a future of justice and peace, even in the face of grave injustice and material and moral poverty. May all men and women, and societies at every level and in every part of the earth, soon be able to experience religious freedom, the path to peace!"

- Pope Benedict XVI, "RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, THE PATH TO PEACE"; 1 JANUARY 2011


We do have a lot in common morally and in terms of the future of humanity I think

tonyfish58

That is great - its gives us hope that humanity is starting to get the message. We all need to pursue the one God and come together in one common Faith. All Faiths of the Past were laying the Foundation stones for this to happen.

Unfortunately I now think that it will not be until another world wide disaster occurs, either man made or natural, that humanity will act upon this necessity.

When this will happen? Given the decline in Morality & the pursuit of Materialism in the world today, with a background of increasing catastrophes around the world. It would appear that it could be expected that if an event was to happen, that it could be very soon.

Regards Tony

Yeshua

Tony, I agree with you 1000%

Brother, humanity will not learn to change its ways until its hands are tied.

Catholic prophecies predict a confrontation between two "mighty ones", that will begin in the second half of the twentieth century, following a world war. Out of this crisis which will extend into and reach its climax in the 21st century, a "new mankind" will come into existence. The 20th century has come and gone, and the Catholic prophecies were right in my opinion. After world war two in the 20th century, the conflict between East and West emerged both in the form of Communism vs Capitalism (China is still Communist and ever-growing) and between the Islamic world and the West, which started with the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 and the birth of militant Islamism. Would you like to read one of these prophecies? I'm going to be blunt: They predict a massive world conflict, essentially. But it won't end in tragedy, although the road will be painful.

I know your Baha'i, but these prophecies pre-date Baha'u'llah so from a Baha'i perspective they could still be inspirations of the Holy Spirit predicting the Coming Age.

Barthalomew Holzhauser was a parish priest and an ecclesiastical writer. He was born in 1613 at Laugna in Bavaria, and died in 1658. Holzhauser came from a very large, poor family, but eventually he managed to gain an education and became a theologist. He served as a pastor and a dean, and founded a religious community.

Holzhauser was renowned for his extraordinary cures. He wrote several books, including his Visions (1646). Several of the ten visions have been fulfilled. He was declared "Venerable" by the Catholic Church and is soon to be beatified and eventually declared a Saint. Pope Benedict XVI is a great admirer of Holzhauser, since he - like the Holy Father - was Bavarian.

Here is some selections from his prophecy (and remember this man said these things centuries ago in a different age, we musn't judge him by "modern standards". He was onto something but he was also constrained by the limits of his age):


"After a world war will come a new period, in which two mighty ones will face each other. The wrangle between these two will begin in the second half of the twentieth century. It will overthrow mountains and silt up rivers. A great change will come to pass, such as no mortal man will have expected; Heaven and Hell will confront each other in this struggle, old states will perish and light and darkness will be pitted against each other with swords, but it will be swords of a different fashion. With these swords it will be possible to cut up the skies and split the earth. A great lament will come over all mankind and only a small batch will survive the storm, the pestilence and the horror. And neither of the two adversaries will conquer nor be vanquished. Both mighty ones will lie on the ground, and a new mankind will come into existence. God possesses the key to everything. Blessed is he who will then be able to praise him, having obeyed all his commandments. And the great monarch of the world will create new laws for the new mankind and will cause a new age to begin, in which there will be only one flock and one shepherd, and peace will be of long, long duration, for the glory of God in heaven and on earth...

"When everything has been ruined by war; when Catholics are hard pressed by traitorous co-religionists and heretics; when the Church and her servants are denied their rights, the monarchies have been abolished and their rulers murdered... Then the Hand of Almighty God will work a marvelous change, something apparently impossible according to human understanding. There will rise a valiant monarch anointed by God. He will be a Catholic, a descendant of Louis IX, yet a descendant of an ancient imperial German family, born in exile...Persecution will cease and justice shall rule. Religion seems to be suppressed, but by the changes of entire kingdoms it will be made more firm.

"He will destroy the rule of [militant] Moslemism. His dominion will extend from the East to the West. All nations will adore God their Lord according to true teaching. There will be many wise and just men. The people will love justice, and peace will reign over the whole earth, for divine power will bind Satan for many years...

"The reign of the Great Ruler may be compared with that of Caesar Augustus who became Emperor after his victory over his enemies, thereby giving peace to the world, also with the reign of Constantine the Great, who was sent by God, after severe persecution, to deliver both the Church and State.

...

The Great Monarch will have the special help of God and be unconquerable.

The Fifth Epoch of time dates from the reign of Charles V until the reign of the Great Monarch. The fifth period of the Church, which began circa 1520, will end with the arrival of the holy Pope and of the powerful Monarch who is called "Help From God" because he will restore everything…

The fifth period is one of affliction, desolation, humiliation, and poverty for the Church. Jesus Christ will purify His people through cruel wars, famines, plagues, epidemics, and other horrible calamities... It is a period of defections, calamities and exterminations. Those who survive the sword, plague and famines, will be few on earth. Nations will fight against nations and will be desolated by internecine dissensions…

During this period, many men will abuse of the freedom of conscience conceded to them. It is of such men that Jude the Apostle spoke when he said, ‘These men blaspheme whatever they do not understand; and they corrupt whatever they know naturally as irrational animals do… They feast together without restraint, feeding themselves, grumbling murmurers, walking according to their lusts; their mouth speaketh proud things, they admire people for the sake of gain; they bring about division, sensual men, having not the spirit.

During this unhappy period, there will be laxity in divine and human precepts. Discipline will suffer. The Holy Canons will be completely disregarded, and the Clergy will not respect the laws of the Church. Everyone will be carried away and led to believe and to do what he fancies, according to the manner of the flesh…

They will ridicule Christian simplicity; they will call it folly and nonsense, but they will have the highest regard for advanced knowledge, and for the skill by which the axioms of the law, the precepts of morality, the Holy Canons and religious dogmas are clouded by senseless questions and elaborate arguments. As a result, no principle at all, however holy, authentic, ancient, and certain it may be, will remain free of censure, criticism, false interpretation, modification, and delimitation by man…

These are evil times, a century full of dangers and calamities...Bishops, prelates, and priests say that they are doing their duty, that they are vigilant, and that they live as befits their state in life. In like manner, therefore, they all seek excuses...

The Sixth Age of the Spirit commences with the powerful Monarch and the Holy Pontiff... This will be an age of consolation in which God will console His Spirit of the affliction and the great tribulation of the preceding age. All the nations will be united...The sacerdocy will flower more than ever, and men will seek the kingdom of God in all solicitude.

"The Lord will give good pastors to the Church. Men will live in peace and this will be granted because people will make their peace with God. Men will live in peace, each in his own field. They will be reconciled with the one God. They will live in the shadow of the powerful Monarch and of his successors. They will live under the protection of the Great Monarch and his successors.

"Many saints and doctors will flourish in the earth. Men will love reason and justice. Peace will reign in all the universe, because the divine power will bind Satan for many years, until the son of perdition will rave anew.

"The Sixth Epoch of the World, which commences with the emancipation of the people of Israel and the restoration of the Temple and of the city of Jerusalem, will endure until the advent of Jesus Christ.

"For likewise, in this epoch, the people of Israel will be consoled to a very high degree by the Lord, our God, who will deliver them from the captivity of Babylon. The kingdoms, the nations, and the people will submit to the Roman Empire [new world order], furiously vanquished by the very powerful and very illustrious monarch who will govern during fifty-six years, rendering the peace of the universe...Thus, in the Sixth Age, God will delight his Church with the greatest prosperity.

"For, although, in the Fifth Age, we saw everywhere the most deplorable calamities: whereas all is devastated by war; that the Church and its members are rendered tributaries; that the subjects are tormented and that all men conspire to erect republics: man himself will be so astonishingly changed by the hand of God, such that no one can imagine humanity. For the powerful monarch, who will come like an envoy of God...will subdue all to his will and will employ his zeal in favor of the true Church of Christ. All the false teachings will be relegated to hell. The empire of the Turks will be broken and this monarch will reign in the orient and in the occident. All the nations will come and adore the Lord their God...

The “angel” is the Great Monarch: “from heaven” means he will be a catholic: “clothed in clouds” implies he will be humble and modest; “rainbow” he will bring peace to the world; “sunshine” refers to his wisdom, talents and title; “feet” refers to his power and zeal; “Open book” he will rule with justice “Right and left foot” he will exercise power over all the world; “Lion Voiuce” he will put fear into the wicked. The “Golden Crown” refers to his Holy Roman (German) Empire; “Cutlass” means his victorious army; the other “angel” refers to the pope (Angelic pastor). “Other angels” are the other helpers of the Great Monarch who will help him crush the Turks...

"Now the Great Monarch also will dominate over all the beasts of the earth, that is to say over the barbarian nations, over the rebellious peoples, over the republics and over all men dominated by their evil passions.

"It is in that age that the relation of the sixth Spirit of the Lord will be known, that is to say the Spirit of Wisdom that God diffuses over all the surfaces of the globes in those times. For men will fear the Lord their God, they will observe the law and serve it with all their heart. The sciences will be multiplied and complete on the earth. The Holy Scriptures will be unanimously understood, without controversy and without the errors of heresies. Men will be enlightened, so much as in the natural sciences and in the celestial sciences.

"Finally, the Sixth Church, the Church of Philadelphia, is the type of this sixth age, for Philadelphia signifies friendship of brothers, and again guarding the heritage in union with the Lord. Now all these characters convene perfectly in the sixth age, in which they will have love, concord and perfect peace and in which the powerful Monarch will have to consider almost the entire world as his heritage. He will deliver up the earth, with the aid of the Lord his God from all his enemies, of ruin and of all evil."

- Venerable Bartholomew Holzhauser, Catholic prophet and visionary, 1646


PS Notice the line which predicts, "...the Spirit of Wisdom that God diffuses over all the surfaces of the globes in those times..."

"GLOBES" as opposed to "globe". It seems to imply space travel, which spreads the message of unity promulgated on earth by the Great Monarch out into the Cosmos at large.

Lunitik

Father - unmanifest - beloved - object
Son - manifest - lover - subject
Holy Spirit - totality - love - transcendence

What does "Holy Spirit" mean?
Holy comes from hal, meaning whole.
Spirit is a mistranslation of pneuma - meaning breath.
Thus, whole breath, or more sensibly "One Life".

The Holy Spirit is the truth of God, Father and Son is the duality of God.
Thus the trinity does not contradict any monotheistic faith, it just upholds the perspective of the mind as well as the reality.

Man is naught but love subjectified.
God is naught but love objectified.
All that exists is love.

tonyfish58

[QUOTE=Yeshua;28051]Tony, I agree with you 1000%

Brother, humanity will not learn to change its ways until its hands are tied. [QUOTE]

Yes they are very interesting writings, there have been over the years many inspired people that have seen these future events.

It is hard to get the true meaning of all this prophesy until the event actually unfolds.

As a Baha'i we are told not to dwell on what is to be, but to ready humanity for the day they have to turn to their God. All of Humanity will have to face these upcoming events and out of this will come the race of people who will eventually usher in the Most Great Peace.

It is a shame that mankind can not let go of past superstition and come to the realization that mankind is indeed one and that there is only one God.

Even if as the Pope said above, recognise the good in all Faiths and come to some agreement would be a start. I do not know why people need to have an exclusive Faith.

I wish all in the world the best of luck in the future, we will all need it.

Regards Tony

Lunitik

What is funny is that you both are actually doing exactly what you think humanity needs to stop: you are identifying yourself as Christian and Baha'i, attaching to Jesus or Baha'u'llah.

Neither of these men matter at all, without "God", neither matter in the slightest - it is through "God" that these men are important. It is through giving up free will and recognizing they are one with "God" that they have been able to do His Will. Creating a distinction between your experience and reality - between the ego and true self, man and God - is the nature of this problem.

Any and all identifications which form the "I" are sinful, they energize the notion of the little self, they form the ego. Find out what this "I" has arisen in, who is the one who asserts "I"? Realize what is not you, all phenomenon you can observe - whether mind or body, feelings or outside events - none of these are you. Nothing you have conceptualized is you either, for you are the one who has conceptualized them. Find out what that is, the one who has given power to these beliefs...

In this, you will assuredly realize truth, that man and God are also one - in fact these are merely concepts in and of themselves: only existence is, all life is an expression of the true life.

Lunitik

You must not choose this or that, in choosing you give power to your ego - what grounds do you have to choose what was already here before your birth? Become choiceless, simply permit whatsoever is and be open to reality. This looks like a choice, it is not, it is merely a state of let-go although it must be practiced before it is so.

Take all the enlightened ones advice on how to realize this as it seems important to you - your being knows truth already, it is just to provide the grounds for trust which empowers the leg-go. Do not concentrate on a single expression of the divine, seek the divine in yourself.

You too are a manifestation, you too are the only begotten Son of God - the only reason you do not know it is because you deny it. You do not think you are worthy of this, you think only those chosen for it are able to take such roles, it is not so. They are merely flowers where you remain a seed... they are your potentiality, there is nothing different other than they have actualized it.

It is because there is only ever one being, how can it be possible that you are not the only?

Lunitik

You are sure that you are, that is fine.

Are you sure the other is?

It is possible to feel their emotions, to know their thoughts - even to see these things entering and leaving people. You can feel them yourself, you can observe the thoughts yourself... then how can they be distinctly other? There are instances of this for Baha'u'llah, where he has seemed to know the others intent, but throughout history, Buddhists describe the same thing - this is not unique at all. This is what you too are capable of, stop considering yourself something so small and realize what you are!

They too are, but they are not separate at all. They are merely another arising just as what you identify with is a mere arising.

Find out what you are, and you will know what they are... then it is impossible to consider distinction.

In this is true compassion, true love... if you insist you are distinct, it is naught but egoistic love - just hate turned on its head.

arthra

Trinity as this thread has been discussed has I think been defined. In the case of Baha'i concept it is mentioned by Abdul-Baha:

Let us, free from past tradition, investigate the reality of this matter. What is the meaning of the father and the son?

This fatherhood and sonship are allegorical and symbolical. The Messianic reality is like unto a mirror through which the sun of divinity has become resplendent. If this mirror expresses "The light is in me" - it is sincere in its claim; therefore Jesus was truthful when he said, "The Father is in me."

The sun in the sky and the sun in the mirror are one, are they not? - and yet we see there are apparently two suns.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 152

And in Some Answered Questions:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality -- that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes -- became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied -- for the Sun is one -- but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 114



As Yeshua has cited a Catholic view above:

To say that Jesus merely reflects God perfectly like a mirror or water reflecting the image of the sun, is subtly but crucially different from saying that God actually became man, that God actually took on a body of flesh and entered into his creation as a human person, while remaining at the same time wholly transcendent from it. Christians do not believe that Jesus reflected perfectly the attributes of God, like the sun analogy presented, we believe that he was fully God and fully Man - not simply a reflection or copy of the transcendent, unknowable image or essence of God but actually the essence and very being of God made man, becoming human flesh for our sake.

This is I think representative of what you'd find on a Christian forum.

Baha'is I think do not say and would never suggest that God "became" man or "took a body" and became incarnate...


The human temple that has been made the vehicle of so overpowering a Revelation must, if we be faithful to the tenets of our Faith, ever remain entirely distinguished from that "innermost Spirit of Spirits" and "eternal Essence of Essences" -- that invisible yet rational God Who, however much we extol the divinity of His Manifestations on earth, can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in the concrete and limited frame of a mortal being.

Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá'í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God -- both of which the utterances of Bahá'u'lláh emphatically repudiate and the fallacy of which they expose.

~ Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 112

You will find Jesus described as a "Manifestation" of God in the Baha'i Writings..and this concept I would suggest is found in the following:

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

It is "through" Jesus we believe that the "light of the Glory of God" can be seen or was seen when Jesus walked the earth.

2Cr 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

"That life also of Jesus might be made manifest" in our body.. not that we are "incarnate".

The Greek word Phanero is "manifest".

to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

a) make actual and visible, realised

b) to make known by teaching

c) to become manifest, be made known

d) of a person

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you..

In Hebrews first chapter:

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

(The Word is "spoken" through the prophets and by His Son..through Him)


Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Brightness apaugasma means:

reflected brightness

a) of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God

Note He ..Christ "perfectly reflects the majesty of God" per

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

This is the concept of the Mirror.

Glory is "doxa" splendour and brightness

(doxa is the splendour, brightness....which is the title of Baha...)

How is the Holy Spirit used in Baha'i Writings?

"In reality thou art spiritually hungry and athirst for the Water of Life. Therefore I send thee spiritual food and bestow upon thee the Water of Life Eternal. That food is the divine advices and exhortations revealed in the Tablets and the spiritual outpourings of the breath of the Holy Spirit.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1)

Verily, the perfect and divine power will breathe in you with bounties from the Holy Spirit and enable you to accomplish a thing the like of which hath never been seen by the eye of existence.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 1)

The Guardian feels sure that the contribution which has been made by your friend who has not been active in the Cause for a short time will be the means of stimulating her to renewed service. There is nothing that brings success in the Faith like service. Service is the magnet which draws the divine confirmations. Thus, when a person is active, they are blessed by the Holy Spirit. When they are inactive, the Holy Spirit cannot find a repository in their being, and thus they are deprived of its healing and quickening rays.

(From a letter dated 12 July 1952 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 23)

Enter ye the battlefield with the Confirmations of the Holy Spirit.

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 213)

But I would close with this ... While creeds and doctrines tend to be ingrained in the past dispensations, this is not so much the case among Baha'is.

LordOfGoblins

Unfortunately what you say does not reflect reality.
That whole seed analogy is exactly that, an analogy.
It is true that manifestations of God are still men who have attained a higher state, however their attainment is not through their own exertions.
Jesus did not go and meditate on a mountain to attain his state, nor did Baha'u'llah or the Bab. Muhammad was meditating but Gabriel came him to suddenly thrusting his mission upon him. So as you might see, it is just about about telling yourself "I am a manifestation of God. I must let go and stop thinking and then I will see that I am one." Does not work like that.
It is a divine bounty sent from God to man. God raises man up to that state. You can meditate for 10000 years in the most lofty way, it wont do nothing friend, it wont do nothing...

Yeshua

I agree Goblin! Well said!

tonyfish58

It is God who chooses the Name of the prophet & this is recorded in the scriptures. When you accept Baha'u'llah the latest name revealed by God, you accept all the names of the past and it becomes a whole.

Abdul'baha says "Regarding the station of this servant: My station is Abdul-Baha, my name is Abdul-Baha, my qualification is Abdul-Baha, my praise is Abdul-Baha, my title is Abdul-Baha. All the friends of God must declare this word, in order that all of them become united and harmonized upon it. No difference must arise. Collect, translate, print and spread all the Tablets written by me regarding this question." Links - Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, Pages 466-468 - Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 55-56 -

and

My name is `Abdu'l-Bahá [literally, Servant of Baha]. My qualification is `Abdu'l-Bahá. My reality is `Abdu'l-Bahá. My praise is `Abdu'l-Bahá. Thraldom to the Blessed Perfection [Bahá'u'lláh] is my glorious and refulgent diadem, and servitude to all the human race my perpetual religion... No name, no title, no mention, no commendation have I, nor will ever have, except `Abdu'l-Bahá. This is my longing. This is my greatest yearning. This is my eternal life. This is my everlasting glory. Link - 'Abdu'l-Bahá: the Center of the Covenant

Regards Tony

IndependentInvestigator

Iconodule,

So far as I can see no traditionally-believing Baha'i could affirm the doctrine of the Trinity as defined in the standard Christian creeds. Rather, it could only be understood and accepted by Baha'is in another, less precise (i.e., non-creedal and perhaps metaphorical) sense.

That said, the Trinity doctrine isn't contained in the Bible. Rather, the Trinitarian doctrine was formulated by Christians in the second, third, and fourth centuries AD in order to reconcile biblical data that seemed in some places to attribute divinity to Christ and to the Holy Spirit while in other places saying that there is only one God.

Since the creedal doctrine of the Trinity isn't itself spelled out in the Bible, there's no particular reason that Baha'is should feel the need to embrace it. More problematic for Baha'is, imo, is that the New Testament does attribute a unique divinity to Christ (which admittedly is one of the pillars of Trinitarianism), calling on the Resurrection in witness of his unique Sonship and absolute Lordship. To place Moses, the Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah on par with him seems, to say the least, odd....

In connection with discussion of the Trinity per se, I'd be interested in hearing how someone could read, say, the Gospel of John and not think that it ruled out the coming of another divine manifestation equal or superior to Christ (e.g., one self-identifying as "the Father").

Don

InvestigateTruth

The Baha'is don't consider the station of Baha'u'llah superior to Jesus. Only, we believe, Baha'u'llah's teachings is for this age.
To Baha'is, He is the spritual return of Jesus. That is the second comming of Christ, in the Glory of the Father, which is promissed in the Bible.

armin

Baha'is don't believe in the trinity as most Christians do. Baha'is are not trying to affirm the trinity, we are merely having a discussion and explaining our point of view. Personally speaking it is a purely man made idea as you pointed out yourself. The lack of understanding of the truth behind what one finds in the Bible lead the early believers on a quest to define it's meanings according to their understanding.

Christ does have a unique divinity as do all prophets and manifestations. Not all manifestations are equal in their station. This, however, in my opinion, is best left alone. We can't understand their true station. One point I tried to make earlier about the sense of entitlement that some believers have is precisely this (this is not pointed at you I'm just trying to make a point.) Rather than focusing on the teachings of each religion and what God has given us, there seems to be some sort of rivalry as to who's prophet is the best and greatest. This is my own personal experience but like the examples I gave earlier, it seems like (some) Christians think they are God's best followers on earth because Jesus is God's son and last manifestation just as Muslims hold fast that Muhammad is the latest and last prophet.

We believe Baha'ullah is the second coming of Christ. I'm not sure if you are familiar with our related concepts and answers but we don't explain such matters physically. We say Jesus has come again but this time his name is Baha'ullah. To me personally this is a much more sound understanding than expecting Jesus to appear in his original physical body.

The rest of what I have to say are just ideas in my head and how I see the whole thing. These are not necessarily Baha'i ideas or things that most Baha'is believe.

Jesus is God's son on earth, in this physical world. God has been and remains singular and free of any relationships of any kind. Jesus came to us through a miracle and thus the Bible speaks of him as he appeared to us, as God's son. Binding God's essence and realm to this physical world and explaining it as such is erroneous. It's somewhat difficult for me to understand why most Christians insist on explaining everything in physical/literal terms from creation to resurrection and Jesus' station. Isn't it a universal religious belief that this world is just a stepping stone to the next, a prison if you will, and that the real world and life is the afterlife!

This is just to give what you mentioned some perspective and something to think about. Look at it from the Jews perspective for a moment and how they were to fathom that God's son has come as their savior. This is of course unprecedented and had I been a Jew in those times I really think I would have had a hard time accepting/getting over this. As Baha'ullah points out, this and similar situations like the circumstances surrounding Moses and who he was are all in themselves a test for believers. Now believing that God's son has come is it that unfathomable that the father himself has come, even metaphorically!?

LordOfGoblins

Just came across this thread on IMDB.
These people gave some truly educational analysis of the trinity. I dont know if some of them are schollars but it seems to me that there are people out there who are really knowledgable even on boards such as a movie database board. It blew me away!
I hope we at Bahaiforums.com can attract more people like this eventually.

have a read of some of the explanations.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335345/...&p=1#193784140

ahanu

Okay. Can you share with us what you learned about the Trinity?

LordOfGoblins

You dont really end up learning a great deal mind blowing things about the trinity. Well... that wasnt my point. It was the fact that such intelligent discourse can be had about the topic on a website like IMDB which shows to me people are really questioning these things- is what more blew me away. But I can give a small example. One of the posters for example.

"The way that I have seen it explained in simple terms is that god is basically like a plant, and the father, the son, and the holy spirit are like leaves. Each is a separate thing of its own, and yet each is also a part of one entity"

Even this statement I had not seen here before but I may have missed someone post it. Other statements arguing against it were equally as effective and educational to me from what I read there. Even the first reply post which I dont want to repaste because it might seem like I am wanting to debate the trinity here again which is not my intention.

ahanu

How does this differ with Abdu'l-Baha's image of the sun and mirror when he explains the Baha'i trinity? What are some practical applications of the Christian Trinity and the Baha'i trinity?

BruceDLimber

I quote Bill Sears:

"The Writings of the &Bahá'í Faith explain that, in one
respect, each of the great religions has a Trinity. It is
found in Hinduism, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism,
Christianity, Islám, and the Bahá'í Faith. However, this
Trinity is merely the outward symbol of an inward truth. It
should never be interpreted as meaning that God can be
defined, divided, or limited in any way.

"God is One, single, unknowable, indefinable, indivisible,
and infinite, Bahá'u'lláh tells us. There is no
exception to this truth.

"The Trinity is to be understood in the following
manner: In every revealed religion there are three essential
actors, (1) the Giver, (2) the Gift, and (3) the Receiver
of the Gift.

"Almighty God is the Giver. The Messenger of God is the Receiver of the Gift. The Holy Spirit is the Gift.</p>

"In the case of Judaism, God was the Giver, Moses the
Receiver of the Gift, and the Holy Spirit revealed in the
symbol of the Burning Bush was the Gift. In the case of
Christianity, God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit in the
symbol of the Dove. This Trinity composed of God,
the Messenger, and the Holy Spirit, has existed in each
of the great religions. For example:


'1. God, Moses, the Burning Bush.

'2. God, Zoroaster, the Sacred Fire.

'3. God, Christ, the Dove.

'4. God, Muhammad, the Angel Gabriel.

'5. God, &Bahá'u'lláh, the Holy Maiden.'
[11. God Passes By, p. 101]


"These are all the outward symbol of the same inward truth. They represent the moment when the Holy Spirit or
Wisdom of God became directly associated with the
One Who was to be His Messenger."
--The Wine of Astonishment, pp. 103-104.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

LordOfGoblins

More on the trinity from Abdul'Baha...

O thou seeker after Truth!

The question of the Trinity, since the time of His Holiness Christ until now, is the belief of the Christians, and to the present time all the learned among them are perplexed and confounded. All have confessed that the question is beyond the grasp of reason, for three cannot become one, nor one three. To unite these is impossible; it is either one or three. If we say the Essence of Divinity is divided, even in some aspects, division is one of the necessities of the contingent world and of generation, but the Ancient is holy (i. e., whole and indivisible). If we say that the Trinity was originally one and was later divided, change and transformation will be necessarily applied to the Essence of Oneness, and change and transformation are necessities of the contingent world and not of the Essence of Divinity. If we say this number is Ancient, three Ancients become necessary, and among the three some are distinguished which are also Ancients. In this wise five Ancients are the result, and among the five are those who are distinguished and thus nine Ancients become necessary, and so on ad infinitum.

Thus considered, Trinity is made a necessity, although the falsity of Trinity is evident. furthermore, the signs of oneness are evident and plain in all existence. If thou shouldst gather all existent beings, thou wouldst be unable to find two alike in all states and qualities; of necessity there is difference. Thus the signs of oneness are manifest and evident in all things. How much more is the Creator of all things!

But there are, in the Gospels, clear expressions indicative of Trinity; among them : "The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father." As Christians did not understand the meaning of this expression, their thoughts were scattered.

The reality of this question is as follows: Divine Oneness is proven and He revealeth Himself in the Holy Essences. The sun is one sun but manifesteth itself in different mirrors. If thou lookest into the mirror and seest the manifestation of the sun, thou wilt say, the sun is in the mirror and this sun manifest in the mirror is the same sun of the heavens; although two suns, yet in reality they are one. The sun hath not descended from its high and lofty station, it hath not taken up its abode in this mirror, but hath manifested itself therein.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 512)

LordOfGoblins

cos one says the sun does not descend into the mirror. Baha'u'llah is a reflection rather than literally God. Wheras the leaf is literally a part of the tree (God)...

jimhabegger

Iconodule, I'm not sure I understand what your point is, but if you're looking for a Baha'i to admit that Baha'i teachings about the Trinity are contrary to what you say have been the true Christian teachings about it from the beginning, I can help you there. I'm a Baha'i and what Abdu'l-Baha says about the Trinity looks to me like it's diametrically opposed to what I see you presenting here.

On the other hand, I don't see any more support for your view in the Bible, than I do for what I see Abdu'l-Baha saying. Actually, I see a lot more support in the Bible for what I see Abdu'l-Baha saying.

You raise the question of whether Jesus's teachings could have been corrupted immediately after His crucifixion. The gospels themselves give dozens of examples of how His apostles corrupted His teachings, even before He was crucified. Again and again and again He had to correct their misunderstandings. Numerous examples make it very clear that they had no clue what He was talking about most of the time.

If the gospels themselves testify that Jesus's own apostles continually misunderstood His teachings, then I can't see any reason, apart from wishful thinking, to imagine that they, or anyone else, understood them better after He was gone.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

1 Corinthians 13:9-13.

Emilia

Long years of tradition, I expect. It's just what dogma does after enough time. I haven't had much luck convincing many Muslims the texts were not intentionally corrupted either. Oh well.

Did Bruce include the letter about Arius? That's a fascinating study in "it's better to be unified than right."

tonyfish58

No I did not see the Letter about Arius. Just quotes about.

Tradition is the issue I would say as well.

Regards Tony