Napkin

Hi everyone,

I am wondering why people think they have souls? Or maybe I just dont have one? I've been asking every Baha'i I know why they think we have souls and no-one is giving me an answer that makes sense to me!

The one answer I hear allot is "because bahaullah said so"
But he also said do your own search for truth.

So this is my own search......Why should I believe I have a soul? How is it possible that humans have souls and animals dont?

Essence of GOD

it all eventually comes down to trusting bahaullah?
was he truthful or not?
you decide

armin

Looking at it the other way around, we can ask why do you think we don't have souls? And if the best answer you can come up with is because you can't see it or feel it then there's a lot to think about here I think. To be fair to both sides of the argument it's a 50/50 scenario; no evidence exists to back it up or to deny the claim ... Besides we don't have faith because we've been given proven facts similar to what science gives us, we have faith that something bigger than what we can comprehend or ever prove can very well exist, and that's a noble idea.

Sboyce

YOu dont have a soul
you are a soul, you have a body

Rani

Excellent response Sboyce.

arthra

Probably a review of what was said about souls by Abdul-Baha would be appropo:

Now concerning mental faculties, they are in truth of the inherent properties of the soul, even as the radiation of light is the essential property of the sun. The rays of the sun are renewed but the sun itself is ever the same and unchanged.

Consider how the human intellect develops and weakens, and may at times come to naught, whereas the soul changeth not.

For the mind to manifest itself, the human body must be whole; and a sound mind cannot be but in a sound body, whereas the soul dependeth not upon the body.


It is through the power of the soul that the mind comprehendeth, imagineth and exerteth its influence, whilst the soul is a power that is free.

The mind comprehendeth the abstract by the aid of the concrete, but the soul hath limitless manifestations of its own.

The mind is circumscribed, the soul limitless.

It is by the aid of such senses as those of sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch, that the mind comprehendeth, whereas the soul is free from all agencies.

The soul as thou observest, whether it be in sleep or waking, is in motion and ever active.

Possibly it may, whilst in a dream, unravel an intricate problem, incapable of solution in the waking state.

The mind, moreover, understandeth not whilst the senses have ceased to function, and in the embryonic stage and in early infancy the reasoning power is totally absent, whereas the soul is ever endowed with full strength.

In short, the proofs are many that go to show that despite the loss of reason, the power of the soul would still continue to exist. The spirit however possesseth various grades and stations....

The animal is the captive of nature and cannot transgress the rules and laws thereof. In man, however, there is a discovering power that transcendeth the world of nature and controlleth and interfereth with the laws thereof.

For instance, all minerals, plants and animals are captives of nature.

The sun itself with all its majesty is so subservient to nature that it hath no will of its own and cannot deviate a hair's-breadth from the laws thereof. In like manner all other beings, whether of the mineral, the vegetable or the animal world, cannot deviate from the laws of nature, nay, all are the slaves thereof.

Man, however, though in body the captive of nature is yet free in his mind and soul, and hath the mastery over nature.


~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablet to August Forel, p. 8

Napkin

Thank you

Napkin

Soul is another name for sub-conscience?!

Parsa

No. Conscience, consciousness, sub-conscience, etc. are all aspects of the mind, which is physical. The soul is our essential existent self.

Please read the following tablet by Bahá'u'lláh:
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh — LXXX
This is from Bahá’u’lláh's Tablet to Abdu'r-Razzáq.

You may also wish to read the next sections from Gleanings, 81, which is from the Tablet to 'Abdu'l-Vahhab:
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh — LXXXI

And section 82:
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh — LXXXII

Steve

spirit

I don't think this question is easy because it is based in belief. People that answer it say because so and so said so! How is that an answer? Then they will say, well that is faith believing in something you don't have absolute proof of.

Baha'u'llah said, independent investigation of truth! Investigate truth for yourself. Don't just believe what someone tells you!

But then people on this forum post things and expect someone to believe what they say. Or just read the writings and thats it! No thats not it! You have to read the writings yes, read scripture, get as much spiritual knowledge as you can. But knowledge is not the SOUL.

Taking that knowledge and living it, proving to yourself, the reality of it, bringing the SOUL to the surface, so to speak. Learning that we live from our minds, but our minds aren't the whole of us, is part of learning and seeing and feeling the soul.

I can't tell you if there is or isn't a soul! You have to have Faith and prove it to yourself, you have to feel the rightness of it and proceed from there.

IndependentInvestigator

Napkin,

I wonder similar things!

A few thoughts...

Have you heard of the book Ancient Faith and Modern Physics by Stephen M. Barr? Barr is an accomplished quantum physicist who looks at how quantum physics relates to ideas like God, free will, and the soul. He doesn't do this in the sloppy, "pop" spirituality way one will often see, but in a more careful, scientifically informed way.

Anyway, one of the arguments he lays out, building on other thinkers, indicates that the wave-collapse observed in quantum physics requires a non-material mind to make it happen, because otherwise--if the observer is only physical--the observer itself can be described within a wave function. I'm not doing this justice, because I can't remember it well enough and my grasp of quantum physics isn't the best (and it's after 2 AM). BUT the book and its arguments are well worth reading. His explanation is much clearer and more cogent than what I can explain.

Another reason to believe in a soul is what's called in philosophy "the hard problem of consciousness." It boils down to basically this--there is no way that we can really conceive by which matter could give rise to consciousness. Perhaps it can, and that it does is frequently asserted. But when people try to explain *how*, they usually just end up tying their head in knots, and nothing more.

Yet another reason to believe in the soul is that people around the world who have explored within themselves have arrived at some consistent conclusions about reality--one of these being that we have--or are--souls. On this, see Aldous Huxley's book, The Perennial Philosophy, which explores what conclusions the great prophets and mystics around the world have shared. If there's a core of reliable spiritual truth, surely it's what the worlds spiritual traditions can all agree on--and the existence of the soul is one of these things.

Finally, you may want to check out the book The Soul Hypothesis, which is also on my reading list:

http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Hypothesi.../dp/1441152245

BTW, regarding animals, perhaps they do have souls of some sort. Who knows?

Don

MichaelAW

According to current quantum theory you may in the future say, they say I have a body but prove it. Apparently whats inside the universe may be a type of hologram image of sorts.

The Empire State building fits inside less than one tablespoon if you remove all the empty space between its, what we call particles. At everythings simplest form, everything in the universe is made of the same stuff and even what we think of as empty outer space is made of this basic material, so in essence, we are gathered clumps of particles in a sea of particles. All interconnected. Now what were you saying about souls?

Dabbi Taylor

I recommend, if you haven't already, to do book 1 of the ruhi institute courses. This book helped me, through discussions, to answer these questions for myself.

If I may suggest;
Try asking different questions. Like someone noted before, to prove the existence of the soul is similar to try and prove the existence of God. Impossible.
But if you'd try and direct your questions elsewhere and explore concepts such as life after death, prayer, why do we pray, what/why is it that I benefit from implementing things like this to my life:
'O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.'
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

If you find the answer to these, through studying and discussions, the answer whether you have a soul or not will become quite obvious.

Have an amazing journey. And remember to always keep an open mind and never to stop asking questions

wolverinebiker

well here is a way i look at it scientifically at the moment of death we loose 7 grams and animals don't i think that is our souls leaving. but after all said and done it is not just bah'u'lah who says it. i am native and in the native belief we have a soul EVERYTHING else has a spirit.

Sen McGlinn

I think the soul is the the part of us that sees humour in things. It has other capacities, but that one is undeniably present in all, and cannot be explained in terms of our animal natures.

EternalStudent

Many will say 'Prove you have a soul!'
I say 'Prove you don't have a soul!'
They will tell me the burden of proof rests on me, because I am saying something is, while they are saying something isn't.
I will tell them the burden of proof rests on them, because they are saying something isn't that has been believed to be by billions of men and women over the generations. If we all still believed the Earth was flat, and I said it wasn't, who would the burden of proof be on? Me.
They will say those were primitive peoples, and we can't trust their theories.
I will point to the Pyrimids. 200,000 lb stone blocks were used to build them. *WE* cannot do that yet.
They will say that's only one example.
I will say it is an example found GLOBALLY, just like the belief in a soul.
They still won't believe in a soul.
I still won't believe there isn't one.
Our time would have been wasted in debate. Neither would be able to prove the other wrong.

On a slightly more practical note, I've heard some say Zen can be used to discover the soul.

rushdy

I salute you for doing your own investigation and not falling into the whole "Baha'ullah says so" dilemma.

Baha'ullah was a man on intellect and one of the things that helped me answer many of the questions was the tablet of wisdom.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 137-152

The tablet of wisdom states a couple of philosophers that you might want to check out. Socrates/Plato, Aristotle, and Kant do provide great arguments about the existence of the soul. You should also read some arguments against the existence of the soul, then make up your own argument! I would also suggest reading PART III of some answered questions by Abdul-Baha.

I was in your position not so long ago and i promise you, the answer will be clear to you as long as you don't have a bias towards a specific answer.

Napkin

Thanks Rushdy, I will look into the documents you recommended and yes I try not to be bias towards either side, especially my own, I know how people tend to be solipsistic.

There is one thing Bahaulla said that I believe without question, and that is where he said dont believe anything without questioning it