LordOfGoblins

Hello.
I thought I would start this new thread cos the forum has been mostly debtes with Christians recently (not that theres anything wrong with that?).
Anyway..
I Was just at a Bahai fundraiser in our community and this Bahai lady who I know and like well was saying how she saw this documentary on TV about a man who was against capitalism and how coorperations are bad. Eg for the credit crunch in America not to long ago, noone was willing to own up and everyone was passing the blame. eg banks passing the blame to consumers etc.
Anyway then she quickly jumped from that to how capitalism is Bad in the Bahai writings and Baha'u'llah makes it quiet clear that this will be quote "The last thing to die" before the new world order.
Now I am just sortof trying not to argue but I cant stop myself sortof piping up and saying "Well there is nothing wrong with capitalism".
I see that very soon she is becoming upset and offended and I dont know how to handle this situation. She says is what Bahai writings have I been reading and I try to just be nice and water the conversation down.
Anyway have you experienced other Bahais with different conceptions from you who get upset if you dont agree ith their view? It seems particularly women are so sensitive.
Anyway, finally. Is capitalism bad in the Bahai faith??? She says its bad cos its all about consumerism. So then she left the table and went outside cos I think I upset her
I never thought of myself argumentative at all and I was trying to be peaceful

Thank you for listening...

LordOfGoblins

Now after writings this thread and reflecting on it.
Perhaps when a lady becomes sensitive and passionate when they are talking men should just keep quiet and nod politely???

Rani

For a very short and sweet answer:

There is nothing in the teachings against some kind of capitalism; its present form, though, would require adjustments to be made.

(19 November 1945, on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

Rani

However, I can see where she's coming from, because I think we can all see that the Governments have allowed a system where we have dependence on constant production of goods to make profit.. Nothing wrong with profit, we need that; However, there is too much being produced that we don't need, which leads to junk, and waste and excess pollution.
- Not to mention spending on some things that are a waste of money, which could be better spent elsewhere.
Example, I really don't like the fact that one niece of mine has five Barbie dolls, or so. (There's that number, again). What is happening to our society? Why isn't one enough? It was back in 'my day'. lol.

She did mention consumerism, so maybe that was the emphasis she intended.

Maybe next time, if you are given a good opportunity to speak, mention the parts that you agree on. Continue to be patient. Abdu'l-Baha says we should concentrate our efforts on making others happy. Sounds like you tried hard to make it peaceful. : )

arthra

Anyway then she quickly jumped from that to how capitalism is Bad in the Bahai writings and Baha'u'llah makes it quiet clear that this will be quote "The last thing to die" before the new world order.
Now I am just sortof trying not to argue but I cant stop myself sortof piping up and saying "Well there is nothing wrong with capitalism".
I see that very soon she is becoming upset and offended and I dont know how to handle this situation. She says is what Bahai writings have I been reading and I try to just be nice and water the conversation down.

Whenever there's an issue about what the Writings say.. It behooves whoever is involved to go ahead and cite them!

I find that a lot of tese issue are under the theme of what's called the "economic question":

Among them are (the teachings) concerning the question of economics that all the members of the body politic may enjoy through the working out of this solution the greatest happiness, welfare and comfort without any harm or injury attacking the general order of things. Thereby no difference or dissension will occur. No sedition or contention will take place. This solution is this:

First and foremost is the principle that to all the members of the body politic shall be given the greatest achievements of the world of humanity. Each one shall have the utmost welfare and well-being. To solve this problem we must begin with the farmer; there will we lay a foundation for system and order because the peasant class and the agricultural class exceed other classes in the importance of their service. In every village there must be established a general storehouse which will have a number of revenues.

The first revenue will be that of the tenth or tithes.

The second revenue (will be derived) from the animals.

The third revenue, from the minerals, that is to say, every mine prospected or discovered, a third thereof will go to this vast storehouse.

The fourth is this: whosoever dies without leaving any heirs all his heritage will go to the general storehouse.

Fifth, if any treasures shall be found on the land they should be devoted to this storehouse. 40

All these revenues will be assembled in this storehouse.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 39

The Bahá'í Cause covers all economic and social questions under the heading and ruling of its laws. The essence of the Bahá'í spirit is that, in order to establish a better social order and economic condition, there must be allegiance to the laws and principles of government. Under the laws which are to govern the world, the socialists may justly demand human rights but without resort to force and violence. The governments will enact these laws, establishing just legislation and economics in order that all humanity may enjoy a full measure of welfare and privilege; but this will always be according to legal protection and procedure. Without legislative administration, rights and demands fail, and the welfare of the commonwealth cannot be realized. Today the method of demand is the strike and resort to force, which is manifestly wrong and destructive of human foundations. Rightful privilege and demand must be set forth in laws and regulations.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 238

You could say that there is a form of communalism suggested for agrarian societies..maybe profit sharing for companies..and voluntary sharing of wealth...

Profit Sharing Recommended to Solve One Form of Economic Problems

"No, Bahá'u'lláh did not bring a complete system of economics to the world. "Profit-sharing is recommended as a solution to one form of economic problems. "There is nothing in the teachings against some kind of capitalism; its present form, though, would require adjustments to be made."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 19, 1945: Bahá'í News, No. 210, August 1948, p. 3)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 550)

LordOfGoblins

Hi Arthra.
Yes I agree people should cite their writings. Go ahead and do it. But some people get emotional when they talk and they dont want to "hear another view"?
Besides this is not the first time she said something when I asked "Where in the writings does it say that?"
So i cant just keep saying "Where in the writings does it say that"? cos it starting to come off sounding rude of me. I dont know how to say that in a very sweet voice Or I would have no problem doing that.
And My quote was from Abdul'Baha where he says that giving people the same reward for different measures of work is not feasible. I will find the quote and past it here when I can...

Rani, thanks for the responses too. I was trying to be peaceful but sometimes people get emotional from 0-10 so fast its like there is no precedent for trying to not end badly if they are going to do that...
Even my mum disagrees with me on this when I discuss with her and would not back down so I had to let it go... hahhahahaha

LordOfGoblins

Also she is a good deal older than me about 15 years.
So perhaps is just a matter of not wanting to told another view that is credible in the writings by a younger person.

Prodaytrader

My guess is that your discussion partner is ignorant and I mean that politely with respect to the understanding of fundamentals of capitalism. My first thought is that she is confusing capitalism with material consumerism. Capitalism is too to date our most effective means of providing goods and services to society. No other form of economic policy works as efficiently as capitalism to fulfill this essential need of society. At one point in my studies I held a similar view as your partner but have come to a much different philosophy. I studied economics and have a business degree so I'm slightly educated on thee matters. Baha'u'llah insists that everyone must have a trade and must contribute to society so with that in mind it becomes clear that some form of economic policy must exist. Utopia does not mean that all needs are provided for us without effort on our part so no system is valid in Baha'u'llah's vision where we get something for nothing. From a physiological stand point I know first had that the drive to exist, that is to say, our need for food, clothing, housing as so forth are a fundamental part of our lives. At least at this point in history these driving forces to feed our selves and our family our a great source of motivation. And since Baha'u'llah says that God allows work to be a form of worship it's easy to see how for the majority of the populace the drive to exist plays a huge role in our happiness as individuals. Without the struggle to exist much of our identity and purpose diminishes. People who no longer struggle to survive tend to be unhappy and without a purpose as full filling as such they tend to get lost and sometime are led astray. Work really is worship in the same way that service and prayer are.

However as some others have pointed out our particular form of capitalism has gone off the deep end and this does need to be straightened out. There most likely will always be extremes in wealth and poverty. Some of us through luck or birth are born with fewer skills and knowledge and thus will never be able to make ends meet. Others through blessings, drive and chance are given opportunities for greater wealth. This is capitalism at its root. The problem becomes when the haves refuse to share with the have nots which creates extremes of wealth. No system is perfect when one party can get rich while another party can't even eat. This happens because of greed. Let's take bill gates for example. Had bill decided to price his product line at a more reasonable cost more people would have the ability to purchase his goods, become more educated and had a greater shot of securing his financial comfort. Instead he priced it way high making it harder for everyone to buy his product lines and now people suffer from lack of experience with computers. Just because you have a great idea or product that doesnt give you a right to be greedy and create vast sums of wealth at others expense.

Another issue at play here is found in consumer driven capitalism. This is what America is so proud of. This comes about when a society exists for no other reason then to buy. Usually these are luxury items like iPads, TV's, jewelry..etc. this type of system serves little to serve man or God for that matter. We buy, products are made, wages earned and those who are in the system can exist just fine. What if instead of Apple investing so much of its time developing the iPad mini, it's coming, they instead worked on a cure for aids. People could be helped far and wide, employees could work with a purpose and apple could sell their cure for a profit to pay the employees. The system needs a refocus is all but that will only come about by teaching the CEOs of today and tomorrow what's a better bet for the future of their company. Instead of spending millions of dollars on lobbyist to help keep minimum wage where it is these companies should want to spend that money on paying higher salaries to their employees which would allow all to prosper, not just a few. Society needs ton decide that what's not important is the latest iPad but what is important is making sure all people have access to food , education and housing.

MAWillsey

Food, Health, Education and leisure time, time to ponder, reflect, to spend time with our loved ones. To have fun! Too much work when not needed is an illness. Balance, it's all about healthy balance.

LordOfGoblins

erm. Whats this got to do with my OP??

arthra

Lord of Goblins wrote:

Besides this is not the first time she said something when I asked "Where in the writings does it say that?"
So i cant just keep saying "Where in the writings does it say that"? cos it starting to come off sounding rude of me. I dont know how to say that in a very sweet voice Or I would have no problem doing that.

Some of this might be some personal issues you have with this lady.. but let's look at the Writings and see what they say..is never inappropriate. It provides all of us with deepening on various subject..

What happens is that we assume we know what's in the Writings and begin spouting off about it without referring to them..this happens on public forums too often sadly enough.

Age really has nothing to do with it..

LordOfGoblins

NOOO. Its not personal at all trust me. I really like this lady, I even take her to a weekly Bahai activity in my car.. But if I hurt a Bahai like that when just discussing ideas it hurts me not to sound cliche I dont want to be the cause of sorrow to other Bahais!

LordOfGoblins

Thank you for your comments though it has helped me..
I really appreciate it. This forum is the only place I can go to get help with these troubles I have.. psycologists are expensive.

spirit

I think the point has been missed in this thread....woman/man, right/wrong, what ever the case, its the ego! The ego thinks it knows best. You can't speak to the ego because you will run into resistance, as you did with this woman.

That is why other faiths have disharmony/disunity and everyone feels they know the "right" meaning of scripture! It happens in all faiths including this one and that's a fact! Where there is ego there will always be error.

How could you respond? Use this experience as a mirror, how do YOU act like she is acting? Are you thinking you know more than this woman? That doesn't make you different, it makes you the same. See what you can learn in the moment. That is Love! Then...maybe you can give the correct response.

Which isn't...I know the right answer! It might be, lets see if we can find the answer together rather than argue.

LordOfGoblins

Spirit you are right. Your reflection is really good.
You must know however that I did try to bring another Bahai into it.
I said "<insertName> do you know what the writings say about capitalism? Its not bad in the writings is it?"
And he was like "ermm umm. Well I dont read that" (mumble walk away)
so As you can see, I got no support from him!
and hes on the LSA.
lol

arthra

Turn it around and maybe have a deepening for the community on economic questions..encourage discussion and sharing issues. Quote from the Writings.

Sharing some of these issues can be very important..because of the economic stresses that affect many of us..

A few years ago we had a Baha'i in a nearby community..who lost his wife and his house went into foreclosure later.. He more or less stuck to himself and didn't really particpate in anythiing.. He became depressed and committed suicide. Peopel are losing their homes and all sorts of things are happening..being unemployed for a long time .. all kinds of issues.

So having a focus where people can share these things is important.

spirit

LOG
yes unfortunately many people don't want to get involved when they see disunity, they see avoidance as a easy way out. Dealing with difficult people is part of life and is very difficult because one...we don't think we are anything like them and two...often times we get drawn into the arguments and don't like ourselves afterwards.

You don't have to handle the situation right, in your eyes lord of goblins, you just need to see you are both two sides of the same coin. Watch the emotions she stirs in you! For her emotions bring up yours, whether you want to admit it or not.

Thats all! that is what is in your power to do, "see" if she doesn't want to see and just wants to argue, thats her stuff! The best thing you could do, is respond how you believe and walk away because you can't talk sensible to strong emotions.

I think you handled it fine!

Yeshua

What do you guys think of this Catholic prophecy in this regard?


PERE LAMY, FRENCH PARISH PRIEST, Mystic and Founder of the Religious Congregation of the Servants of Jesus and Mary (1855-1931):

“Peace will be given back to the world, but I shall not see it, … War is big business. The manufacturer of the aeroplane, the exploitation of the mines, the iron works, all that will dwindle. There will no longer be those great factories where morality withers and disappears. The working class will be bound to turn back the land.

“When peace is given back to the world, big business will shrink to smaller proportions and will stay there. Everything will grow less. …When peace is given back to the world, plots of [farm] land will rise to more value than they have now. Even if the old workmen insist on dying in towns, that will come to pass…”

“The world will have to be reevangelized over again and that will be work for a whole generation. … The spiritual state of the first Christians will come back"