Noexalt

I guess I really want to post here in the even that someone can really talk me out of dis-enrolling. But wow, there are so many things that make me feel that way I don't know where to start.

I think that the current direction of the Faith has really got me down. I mean, I have no problem with Ruhi, per say, but I have a problem with that being the only option. If there was a catalog of different curricula to choose from, then that to me would be better. I severely question the reasoning and motives of really why there is only one option.

Secondly, is it just me, or have others noticed a large focus on the Institution of the Learned over the Assemblies? My understanding is that the Learned are not a "Divine" institution, but are functional to replace the guardianship/hands institution that could not be continued once Shoghi Effendi died.
The whole sort of vertical top down heirarchy thing bothers me intensely. I feel like it is actually dangerous and breeds a culture of aristocracy vs. proletariat. (The proletariat actually being the community members, not in the IOL who are doing the "sacrificing" and "re-doubling of efforts") The Institution of the Learned would be fine with me if they would not be defined in terms of "rank above" the assemblies and individuals, and would serve their job in terms of advising and assisting instead of outright leadership, rank, and title. It also bothers me that these are "appointed" rather than "elected" positions. Why can't we elect them like everybody else?

I have not been active in my current Baha'i community in four years, because I notice how there was a single "leader" in the community that called the shots, and everyone else was supposed to do the work. Then I got a call from the ABM wondering why I wasn't active. (Wow..) I sent a long letter, and instead of even acknowledging any validity to what I had to say, took the position that I need to "accept a different view". Very interesting choice of words, usually reserved for those who are on the verge of being inimical. Wow..

My feeling is that yes, I am very much a Baha'i in my heart, but the way the organizational/administrative structure is being executed, sorry, I just can't share those values.

Noexalt

cire perdue

I have abuse issues. I know where my problems with authority figures comes from. I think it is especially particular with Americans to have issues with authority. I have had counseling and currently attend Al Anon. However my "spiritual mother" was an ABM in the 1970's. She carefully nutured me and I think help me see some of the pitfalls or else just help me have a strong spiritual connection, so I could get through the pits.

You might want to see if you can hold a group that wants to go throught THE COMPREHENSIVE DEEPENING PROGRAM that can be had from Special Ideas. We are 3/4 finished reading through it. There is no reason individuals can't have deepenings. I happen to think Ruhi is divinely inspired and a God send, and prior to that there was nothing because the CDP was abandonned when its author died.

I just met one of our National Spritual Assembly members and found her to be precious. However she was "aristocratic", she has degrees and worked in levels of business to which I would only see the outer offices. The people that become members of our bodies are august people who are achievers. They are not people who have held one job for 35 years and go home after work and watch TV. However they ARE approachable and have Heart with a capital H. I was glad she had her job at National, I doubt I could do it whatsoever.

I am sorry, but I agree, you need a different view. If you stay at home and do nothing, then your view will NOT change. It is a view that sounds depressed and negative. IF you believe in Baha'u'llah then go on Pilgrimage. I did not know how moved I was by meeting the members of the Universal House of Justice, but the first people I told about it once I was home were really not interested, but there I was telling them and crying. I did not know how moved I was by meeting these men, but they were so, so special that to remember being in their presence brings me to tears. I trust them absolutely.

I can only reccommend to read and pray 2 x daily, and read the Writings 2 x daily if only a sentance. Keep this as a goal until it is part of your life. Then find Baha'i Books that interest you and read them. Get a copy of THE RISE OF CHRISTIANITY by Rodney Stark which our publishing trust had at one time and he is not a Baha'i. Listen to RadioNur. You are not necessarily "wrong", but you are stuck. I don't think you want to be, but when things outside of us cannot be changed, then we must change how we think. Prayer is a fabulous way to do that.

tonyfish58

It is something you have to come to terms with, it is your journey, as we all have to face our own tests.

By diss-enrolling you are saying you no longer believe in Baha'u'llah? Is this the case or is it you just do not agree on the Faiths direction?

The learned arm of the Faith is not a Rank above other believers, that is your perception IMHO. You ask any that have served in this capacity and I am sure none thought they were superior in doing so.

The only way to overcome the way you feel is to immerse yourself in the ocean of Baha'u'llah's words and prayer.

By doing this you will find answers to all your issues. Only you can do this, so I wish you well.

Just remember, Baha'u'llah warned us that the Baha'is are not exempt from the decay affecting humanity, we can dwell on the decay or put in the effort and work towards the unification of mankind.

The answer to your woes is - What would Abdul'Baha do?

P/S I have also been inactive...This is what adds to our woes...It is us not making the effort.

Cheers Tony

Noexalt

This is a question worth a long treatise. I don't think that by unenrolling one is rejecting Baha'u'llah, in fact, I believe it's Kitab-i-heresay that one has to say they don't believe in Baha'u'llah to unenroll.

Much like the declaration card itself is nothing more than a formality; The opposite would also be true. Does the card really say where one's heart is?? Does the absence of it say anything different? However being "enrolled" you are more subject to the direction of the administration, unenrolled, you have no such obligations.

However, some Baha'is will argue that because the administration itself is a part of the Covenant, you ARE by default, rejecting Baha'u'llah (and the Central Figures, and all of the Messengers of the past) by unenrolling. I totally disagree. The only thing I am doing is saying "Hey, I'm not subjecting myself to the fallible human understanding of certain "higher ups" just because they are "higher up"". I think my understanding is just as valid as theirs and my points and thoughts and ideas have just as much truth as theirs. I don't think they have inherited infallibility from the UHJ. Therefore, how can I always be "wrong" and they are always "right". Heirarchy is the problem. We somehow think automatically, that their way is better, because they are within a rank.

Of course, they would deny any sense of their own superiority. I would too. I do think they are considered a rank above, if they are a rank above an assembly, then they are above individuals too.

What would Abdu'l-Baha do? In my understanding none of the Central Figures had any use for this kind of superiority/exaltation/power hungry stuff. There were a number of approaches they took. Baha'u'llah went to the mountains of Kurdistan rather than to cause any disunity. Abdu'l Baha came to the US when things were not going so well administratively... I think I can only take Baha'u'llah's approach.

Noexalt

I don't think having problems with Authority is a bad thing. Isn't this where making a better world starts? All of the Manifestations of God had problems with the "Authorities" of their day too be they religious, political, or both..Where they out of line? I don't think so.

It IS a depressed and negative view. What can I say except what my experiences have led me to. The problem I have with your quote there is that I don't think we should be so enamored with the "men" of the UHJ. They are, in fact, men, and gossip or not, I have knowledge of some things about a few members of the UHJ that most would not believe..of course, the only way such things could be told would be under the guise of "gossip" since there is no way to authenticate such stories. Trust me, they are MEN and not gods. The institution is what is infallible and is not dependent upon the perfections or imperfections of the members.

However, IMHO, past a UHJ decision, all things are fallible. And, in my opinion all such things should still be open for discussion regardless of any one's "position" in the Faith.

Noexalt

This is a question worth a long treatise. I don't think that by unenrolling one is rejecting Baha'u'llah, in fact, I believe it's Kitab-i-heresay that one has to say they don't believe in Baha'u'llah to unenroll.

Much like the declaration card itself is nothing more than a formality; The opposite would also be true. Does the card really say where one's heart is?? Does the absence of it say anything different? However being "enrolled" you are more subject to the direction of the administration, unenrolled, you have no such obligations.

However, some Baha'is will argue that because the administration itself is a part of the Covenant, you ARE by default, rejecting Baha'u'llah (and the Central Figures, and all of the Messengers of the past) by unenrolling. I totally disagree. The only thing I am doing is saying "Hey, I'm not subjecting myself to the fallible human understanding of certain "higher ups" just because they are "higher up"". I think my understanding is just as valid as theirs and my points and thoughts and ideas have just as much truth as theirs. I don't think they have inherited infallibility from the UHJ. Therefore, how can I always be "wrong" and they are always "right". Heirarchy is the problem. We somehow think automatically, that their way is better, because they are within a rank.

Of course, they would deny any sense of their own superiority. I would too. I do think they are considered a rank above, if they are a rank above an assembly, then they are above individuals too.

What would Abdu'l-Baha do? In my understanding none of the Central Figures had any use for this kind of superiority/exaltation/power hungry stuff. There were a number of approaches they took. Baha'u'llah went to the mountains of Kurdistan rather than to cause any disunity. Abdu'l Baha came to the US when things were not going so well administratively... I think I can only take Baha'u'llah's approach.

cire perdue

I don't see anything that can be said to you. I feel rather naive for trying. No one changes who keeps doors shuts and does not go out of their comfort zone. You certainly have argumentative powers. However it appears that all your objections are intellectual. I do not see much hope for anyone who resides solely in the intellectual realm. I know authors of Baha'i books that have been in demand as speakers who have fallen away due to intellectual tunnel vision. It takes a heart connection to be firm in the Faith. Anyone can find objections, it is the easiest thing in the world to be critical and to find fault. Real understanding is being able to put those things into perspective. That is what wisdom is.

Your analysis of my being enamored by the members of the House is rather short sighted. I was enamored later after the fact, because of their humility and the character that I perceived. I am NOT easily impressed. As I said however I am not sure I can say anything that you can hear and I won't argue with you. However it is obvious that you are making the choice.

Noexalt

Well Cire Perdue, you tried. Thanks anyway. Of course, I apologize if I upset you in anyway. I didn't mean to point a finger at you or chastise you about the members of the UHJ. It's just something I am very sensitive to.

I have heard some well-known Baha'is come out and reveal certain things about their past or their present and it always gives me hope. Hope that we can stop perceptions and live in reality. I still have that hope, but don't know if that is reality.

Thanks again,

Noexalt

armin

The main thing is believing in God and Baha'ullah. Being enrolled is in a sense sheer formality. I guess the question you ought to ask yourself is, what are you trying to achieve by dis-enrolling? You believe in your heart and you realize what enrolling/dis-enrolling means. To me you're doing nothing constructive to anyone, including yourself, by dis-enrolling.

As far as the Ruhi classes are concerned, I'm not a big fan of them either. I don't find them tailored to my needs in any way. But looking at the big picture, I acknowledge their usefulness for others, whether they be Baha'i or as an introduction for non Baha'is. More than anything else I consider them as teaching classes and whether they suit our individual needs/wants/taste is irrelevant.

One thing that comes to my mind is Abdu'lBaha's response about disagreements with the Baha'i authorities, and institutions. Abdu'lBaha says that even if he knows the decisions made are wrong, for the sake of unity, he would accept the decisions made (I'm not able to find the quote.)

To me religion is much bigger than any of the things you mention. You have every right to disagree with many things, how things are done, where the community is headed etc, but is all of this enough reason to dis-enroll? If you are a Baha'i then you are a Baha'i; dis-enrolling does not change anything or help anyone but create misunderstandings.

arthra

I'd like to thank noexalt for visiting the forum and adding his posts..

Let me just focus on a few things:

I have no problem with Ruhi, per say, but I have a problem with that being the only option. If there was a catalog of different curricula to choose from, then that to me would be better. I severely question the reasoning and motives of really why there is only one option

I don't think it is the "only" option.. It is most encouraged though at this time for Baha'is to work together on a large scale but there are plenty of options open...

such as the Wilmette Institute

Home

Also while Ruhi is certainly offered.. The Baha'i Center near where I live also has other programs such as Fortress for Wellbeing also there are other deepening materials that are used..

So it is not restricted to Ruhi alone.

You have the option yourself to encourage deepening in an area of your choice ... It's up to you. More over the Summer Schools have a variety of programs. The one near where I live had a course in Islamic law.

You may have heard of the Desert Rose Baha'i Institute

Welcome to the Frontpage

Bosch Baha'i School also has a variety of curricula:

Bosch Bahá’í School — Retreat & Conference Center

Institute for Studies of Global Prosperity Graduate Seminar - Sahar D. Sattarzadeh

No exalt wrote:

The Institution of the Learned would be fine with me if they would not be defined in terms of "rank above" the assemblies and individuals, and would serve their job in terms of advising and assisting instead of outright leadership, rank, and title. It also bothers me that these are "appointed" rather than "elected" positions. Why can't we elect them like everybody else?

If you are familiar with the history of our Faith you'll recall that the Hands of the Cause of God were appointed by Shoghi Effendi.. It was from the Hands of the Cause that Counselors developed and they had auxiliaries.. Auxiliary Board Members. When I met Bill Sears years ago I also met Florence Mayberry one of the first Counselors.. Anyway as the Faith has grown the Counselors are now appointed by the Universal House and so we have an appointive side and an elected side.. Mirza Abul Fadl was probably the best known member of the "Learned of Baha".

On the issue of enrollment in the Faith this also has a history.. When people enrolled in the Faith in the time of Abdul-Baha they addressed letters to Him declaring their Faith and He would personally respond.. this is how the Tablets of Abdul-Baha developed.

If you want to withdraw from the Faith I would encourage you to first consult with your Local Spiritual Assembly.. writing a letter to this affect is only a way of stating your position as a matter of record..

cire perdue

Upset, yes, it's upsetting. It is not surprising however. I see intellectuals who fail to become well rounded by branching into the rest of their being. Rather than becoming conversant in their feelings and spirituality they reject it and then blame the Faith. One of the most common tasks of therapists is to teach people what they are feeling when they feel it. One of the most frequent directions is, "You are in your head, what are you feeling?" Intellectuals are the ones who criticize the Faith e.g the Talisman group/debacle. My friends who fell away boycott the Ruhi, they try even to handle depression and family issues intellectually rather than recognize their own failure to consider feelings. No this is not new, it just remains sad, that intellectuals prefer their own limits rather than to move into a spirituality. Complaining about the Ruhi is another symptom, because it is not a clean intellectual property. It is experiential and provides spirituality. It is going prove more meaningful to the most people however.

I had enough of intellectuals who dominated the LSA and community I was in 15 years ago. They weren't very good at it, but they are gone. What the Talisman group found was that all decisions were ultimately by concensus regardless of any high falutting research which implies there always remains a spiritual element.

The other most common defense of the intellectual is to externalize any issues. He is not at fault, and because he does not like something, then it must not be right. Life only makes sense when one looks internally first in all cases. It is a bedrock teaching of the Faith. Al Anon teaches spirituality, it says that being faced with the unchangeable, then we must change ourselves. I expect no one who has these traits who is not willing to change to be happy with the Faith. These traits are an anathema to honesty, self honesty which would allow one to say the fault is my view, not the Faith. I have not argued your points, because they are intellectually inarguable. There are all the faults you need to justify your position. Yes, I have seen the same issues before several times, and yes they upset me. It is sad to see people who refuse to change and blame the Faith instead.

Pollwr

Noexalt,
I have the following thoughts about your post:

Of course, it is up to you what you do with your life.

Have you lived in many different Bahá'í communities? Sometimes what seems over-emphasised in one community (that is not part of the Bahá'í teachings but the way something is done etc) can not be a big issue in another one. As my time as a Bahá'í, I have lived under 3 different National Assemblies and through through 3 decades and certain emphasis have changed with time and with NSA.

It can be wildly frustrating when you have studied and have a clear idea of how things should be and the rest of the community seems to be off in another direction. No one seems to share your perspective. I have had that happen and I have reached the conclusion that when this happens I have sometimes been right and sometimes been wrong. When I was wrong, I eventually saw it, years later. When I was right the community seemed to come round in the end. The Faith is not about owning ideas, and saying I told you so, so then it is time to get on.

As regards to the Rhui courses, there is another way - study all the writings and follow them. There is no new revelation in the Rhui course. You will be fine. Some people won't understand why you have not studied the Rhui course. So what? On the other hand they do provide a good selection of a cross-section of the writings and an opportunity to discuss them and study with others.

The Faith is an organised religion. It is for everyone. If it is to reach every receptive soul it can and if it is to impart, in a systematic way to them, enough so that they may become informed believers then there needs to be a system that is efficient. I think this is what the emphasis on study circles, childrens classes and devotionals is about. It is an efficient system. It is organised. There always used to be tales of people getting swept away with enthusiasm for the Faith at an event and declaring then not really taking things any further and learning more about the Faith. The Rhui couses do address this. I think they are also part of the system to prepare for entry by troops. I would also agree, as a number of people I have spoken to have, that in some communities some people have missed the point a little and are a bit scathing if you haven't done the course. So what? That is thier problem. The Rhui course is not the only way to learn about the writings but sometimes, even if it does not interest you, it is good to support a community effort. It just depends on the situation you find yourself in.

I have not noticed an emphasis on the institution of the learned over the assemblies. Our LSA has consulted with an Auxilliary Board Member, who did not at any time dictate anything to us. Our LSA is free to consult further and make our own decisions for our community. I did notice though that our Auxilliary Board Member, and I imagine the Councillors, devote their time entirely to the Faith and do not have another job. I could see situations where they would be a real driving force behind an initiative because they had more time and energy to devote to it than the rest of us.

Sometimes a stong personality does seem to take over a community. That is just human society for you. We all know we don't have priests in our communities and that all communities of 9 or more believers are run by an LSA. However, none of us come to this Faith perfect and the vast vast majority don't leave this life perfect either. Reading the writings about the characteristics LSA members should display and believers should have can create an exptectation amongst us. The reality is that often we fall short and that is not the fault of the Faith. We are all trying to progress and are at different stages. It is difficult to deal with over assertive people who take over. They drive me mad and I do not know a solution. I don't, personally, like to have anything to do with charismatic extroverts either. When they crop up in the Faith, I don't blame the Faith for them - I know that the Bahá'í Faith is for all and attracts all types.

Well, that is my perspective. I hope it makes sense and is of help.

cire perdue

"The whole sort of vertical top down heirarchy thing bothers me intensely. I feel like it is actually dangerous and breeds a culture of aristocracy vs. proletariat. (The proletariat actually being the community members, not in the IOL who are doing the "sacrificing" and "re-doubling of efforts") The Institution of the Learned would be fine with me if they would not be defined in terms of "rank above" the assemblies and individuals, and would serve their job in terms of advising and assisting instead of outright leadership, rank, and title. It also bothers me that these are "appointed" rather than "elected" positions. Why can't we elect them like everybody else?"

What fine intellectual discernment, that your analysis is the be all and end all, that your opinion is the right and correct one. Wow how can one argue with you? You should start your own Faith. You could advise the Institutions. I mean how could there be people who could avoid the pitfalls that you envision since the people you see are going to repeat all of the errors in history. Could God possibly be in charge? Ever?

Gee I am glad to be one of those silly people who become enamored of our elected and non-elected members, but silly me, I think we are sharing our love of God when we are smiling and crying. I guess I am just a dumb proletariat. Of course you don't want to be one of us. You might have to smile or experience joy, or Heaven forbid be moved to tears.

MichaelAW

I'm glad you are here and I appreciate your thoughts on how you feel. You are obviously quite anxious and deeply concerned about your future faith. I sincerely hope you stick around long enough to become friends here. I feel it is important that you have a safe group of friends to bounce ideas off. Its not a good feeling when you feel isolated and unable to relate to those around you. With all honesty I don't believe a single post will give you much solice and direction. What you say in your first post is I beleive a real concern. I can see your concern is real. Your struggle is not uncommon and I can say I've had struggles of a similar nature. Fornow I suggest you not turn in your card although I personally do not believe that determines if your a Baha'i in your hesrt or not. I'mtelling you this from personal experience my friend. I turned in my card in the past for different reasons but now have my card back. I still struggle, I fear I might always struuggle, and I also worry it is more a short coming of myself than fault of others or of the faith. So I implore you to stay here, with us, until you find more solid ground.

Michaelaw

BruceDLimber

You mistake quite because there is no "hierarchy" in the Baha'i Faith: EVERYONE is "just a Baha'i!" Even the House members have no special status whatever, and especially not those serving in the institutions of the learned.

And if you're in a community where one person is "calling the shots," you need to point out that everyone else should be participating equally so that no individual appears to rule.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Noexalt

I've read all the recent posts, so I'm going to try to answer everything here.
I've been a Baha'i 22 years and have served in just about every capacity possible, including one capacity that isn't even US based. and as a matter of fact, have been through the entire sequence of Ruhi courses and tutored. I think I have been quite obedient even when things don't go the way "I want" in the community. I have washed dishes and cleaned bathrooms at Baha'i Centers, and sat with committees and formulated plans.

Am I "overintellectual"? Perhaps, guilty as charged. But at the same time, let's remember that Baha'u'llah totally supported academic endeavors. "Even unto China!" including finding the mysteries that lie hidden in the depths of His words. It requires brainpower and yes, Cire Perdue, heart power as well. I have cried openly numerous times in Baha'i gatherings when I am moved, so yes, I do have my emotions. I still well up when I hear "Expectation" from the Baha'i Congress CD.

When I first became a Baha'i there was no doubt that I "FELT" it. Undeniable promptings of the spirit.

And, like I said, I am not denying Baha'u'llah, or the Central Figures or any of the Messengers of the past (despite what some might also argue).

We are trying to build the "NEW" World Order, not reinvent the wheel of the Old World Order. If one takes a look at the Dec 11 Masail Feast letter, there is an interesting quote in there that mentions rank, I'm sure all of you will "intrepret" it differently than I do, but in practice where are we at really?

I don't think the Baha'i Faith is about rank and file, heirarchy or superiority of any kind. But I think we are flirting with the Old World Order when it comes to our administration. I see a line between what the Baha'i Faith teaches, and what is being practiced. I think we have all been in conversation where we we admit that we are in an "infantile" stage, but when it comes to openly saying what problems exist, usually one can hear crickets. Although some may say, the believers aren't deepened enough, the assemblies aren't mature enough, we are too materialistic, and we need to teach more. But beyond that, no more. When I say that we are too heirarchical, it sounds like I am attacking the institutions, and attacking individuals. Which of course, is a protection issue. Scary. What I am trying to say is stop, step back, and ask ourselves, do we really think that we have everything right, right now, today? And what is really sacrosanct, taboo, or forbidden to discuss?

The argument about criticism, that is, criticism of the way things are in the Baha'i community is an assumption that the critic is "correct" is kind of puzzling. Only from the clash of differing opinions...right? So, what are we supposed to do, remain silent about everything? Where does it end?

No one likes the guy who sits back and criticizes and doesn't do anything. On the other hand, I think I have had my share of activity in the Baha'i community and have not spent my whole life sitting back by any means. I am now, because I just can't deal with it anymore. I'm trying to think, trying to put some things out there and get some feedback. (I'm getting it here for sure!). If I totally just went with what I felt, I would have withdrew a few years ago, but I choose to keep wrestling with it in hopes that I have an epiphany.

And just so we are all clear, I do not endorse or advocate any other Baha'i "movement", and have zero interest in doing so, so I am not a CB. (But some may argue...)

InvestigateTruth

From the writings of Shoghi effendi, I can think of three points regarding criticism.

1. It is quite ok to address criticisms to their Assemblies.
2. Shoghi Effendi is talking about "constructive criticism", and not just complaining.
3. After bringing the criticism to the assembly, then they must wholeheartedly accept the advice or decision of the Assembly as unity is the most important goal in the faith.

Here are some quotes from Shoghi Effendi regarding criticism:


The Bahá’ís are fully entitled to address criticisms to their Assemblies; they can freely air their views about policies or individual members of elected bodies to the Assembly, local or National, but then they must wholeheartedly accept the advice or decision of the Assembly, according to the principles already laid down for such matters in Bahá’í administration.
From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, May 13, 1945





“The spirit of frank and constructive criticism behind your suggestions must have surely impressed them, and awakened them to a fresh and deeper realization of the unique responsibilities which they have to shoulder in this day.
From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, August 19, 1938





The Guardian believes that a great deal of the difficulties from which the believers … feel themselves to be suffering are caused by their neither correctly understanding nor putting into practice the administration. They seem - many of them - to be prone to continually challenging and criticizing the decisions of their Assemblies. If the Bahá’ís undermine the very bodies which are, however immaturely, seeking to co-ordinate Bahá’í activities and administer Bahá’í affairs, if they continually criticize their acts and challenge or belittle their decisions, they not only prevent any real rapid progress in the Faith’s development from taking place, but they repel outsiders who quite rightly may ask how we ever expect to unite the whole world when we are so disunited among ourselves! There is only one remedy for this: to study the administration, to obey the Assemblies, and each believer seek to perfect his own character as a Bahá’í. We can never exert the influence over others which we can exert over ourselves. If we are better, if we show love, patience, and understanding of the weaknesses of others; if we seek to never criticize but rather encourage, others will do likewise, and we can really help the Cause through our example and spiritual strength. The Bahá’ís everywhere, when the administration is first established, find it very difficult to adjust themselves. They have to learn to obey, even when the Assembly may be wrong, for the sake of unity. They have to sacrifice their personalities, to a certain extent, in order that the community life may grow and develop as a whole. These things are difficult - but we must realize that they will lead us to a very much greater, more perfect, way of life when the Faith is properly established according to the administration.
From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, October 26, 1943

The Baha’i Covenant | The Covenant of Baha’u'llah » A Brief Compilation on Criticism

armin

Just as Bruce mentioned we have no hierarchy. Generally speaking though, some people are leaders and most are followers. The way things are meant to be and how realistically things are done in our community may not match exactly but that's how things will form and function practically. The important thing is that in our faith no one's call is superior to others.

Like you mentioned you've been active and contributed a lot and that's great. Does that mean you're right in everything you say, the way you feel about things, or give you more authority to act as a single cell rather than thinking about the whole community and our unity? The way it seems to me is that you've lost sight of the most important aspect of our faith. Again you have every right to disagree with everything and everyone but if that leads you to negativity I'd say you've gone astray somewhere. I disagree with how certain things are done but I rather not participate in those activities as opposed to cause drifts in our community. Religion is first about our own personal journey and connection with God and then about the practical day to day activities, at least that's how I see it. In the application process of any set of laws there will be imperfections because us humans are running it.

It is somewhat hurtful to me to see a member like yourself with years of service would even consider dis-enrolling. All I can say is do your best as a Baha'i to make things right the way you see them, but if you fail to do so, move on and trust that in the long run things will turn out right.

cire perdue

Expectations are a resentment waiting to happen.

Noexalt

I will just say one more thing and then I think I will close out.

I think as Baha'is we have a hard time on the one hand, that "some" forms of criticism is acceptable, and on the other, the "better to be in Unity and be wrong" argument, coupled with the "what makes you think you are more right" argument. In the end, I think the latter two cancel out any possibility of a criticism, any legitimate grievance process, or any opportunity to raise any kind of "issue" within the Baha'i community.

I'm sure many here have had the case in their community of the abused (physical, verbal or mental) wife going to the assembly and being told to go back and "make it work" scenario. I've seen it more than once myself. So in a case like that should she/we go speak to the LSA, to the ABM, to the NSA? And if they still stand by their decision should we wholeheartedly obey? What if there are children involved? Should we mind our own business? Not get involved? Give ourselves the "It's not my place/right to..." talk? Or remind ourselves that we should not even be talking about "assembly business"...all of those things??

Just something to chew on, basically, in my Baha'i life, I can't think of one single example of anyone ever going above the LSA because of any issue. Better to be in Unity and wrong I guess.

Okay, so that said, I am closing out. I can't in good conscious continue this thread any further, Cire Perdue is right, I most certainly will have an argument for everything. So I can go on and on and on. I think it's just me though, I don't mean to "argue" in the negative sense of the word, but I only wish to discuss things at different angles, and get responses to see if I can get some new insight into something that may help change my viewpoint for the better. Yea, as negative as I may appear, the hope is still there.

And you know, let's be real, another poster said that a forum really wouldn't help too much, and that is correct. Who wants to have some endless discussion string about a subject that isn't very happy and may not have a happy ending, where someone always comes back with another point. This is why in good conscious I can't continue.

In the end, I know where I stand in my heart, my mind, and my soul.

cire perdue

We are powerless over so much, and at times it has to feel that things are NOT right and futile. That is when it is time to give up on what we know and think and believe that things are in God's hands. We should resolve to set things there and leave them, and then focus on what we need to do to take care of ourselves. Our opinion is inadequate to cover and see all things, and to put things in God's hands means that there are going to be solutions that are beyond our conception. To do less may mean we are in constant worry and turmoil. One has to accept one's limitations and accept things we can't change.

After such service and activity I am baffled by your dilemna. There is plainly some process that you are in that is hurting you. I still think one will criticize the Faith rather than see one's own flaws. It is certainly NOT a conscious choice and it is obviously not an easy thing. I think the answer is inside. I can only wonder what really hurt and discouraged you. I seem to be past anything that could hurt me about the Faith, not that I don't think that I can't be disappointed at times.

jimhabegger

Noexalt, I've studied what you wrote, and I think I see all the problems that you see.

I've been practicing and promoting some ideas about what anyone can do to help improve the situation, and I'm not talking about campaigning against the House of Justice. I also have some ideas about how to decide if you want to give up your membership, if you are really undecided. Let me know if you're interested.

In the US, it used to be impossible to withdraw from the membership without saying that you don't believe in Baha'u'llah, but it isn't like that any more.

cire perdue

I find the above attitude to be the antithesis of the unity that I find in happy Baha'is. I feel its basis is intelletualism and one who touts such ideas would seem to be comfortable with many who have been disenrolled or left the Faith i.e. The Talisman Group. The Faith requires a turning away from self, and the above would be the epitome of the opposite of that. I find it to be very chilling. Each person is responsible for his own sprituality. The person who has complaints about the Faith needs to look at himself first. That is the very essence of spiritual life. How interesting that Baha'is who are enamored by the elected members and learned are pictured as somehow naive and foolish. I don't think I would miss someone who is superior enough to characterize me as such, because I was in tears about meeting the Members of The Universal House of Justice. Not at all.

It is so interesting to see the intellectuals who again and again try to put everything into a neat "paper" and leaves out emotional and spiritual knowledge and experience. Some intellectuals would rather disenroll than be wrong, would rather die than feel or acknowledge a spiritual feeling. I am so glad I am not "smart" enough to be one of them. Though I assure you I had to be taught what feelings were!

spirit

Baha'u'llah said independent investigation of the truth. In order to understand truth we first have to gain the knowledge intellectually. Then we take that knowledge and apply it because we have FAITH that it is the answer to life. Jesus means knowledge and Christ means truth so when you put Jesus Christ together, you have knowledge working together with truth bringing the reality/light into existance. As humans we of course have a ego that is in the way or a veil if you will that has to be seen through.

Disunity is ignorance...unity is the coming together of knowledge and truth, or knowledge and spirit, if you will.

Abdul Baha said you can study any faith to be a Bahai...and I have spoken with other Bahais who say yes to this BUT, they say, you should really just study the Bahai Faith because it is for our time. TRUTH IS TRUTH WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? I investigated and saw with my own eyes what I can do and what feels right. I can study the bible for the rest of my life if I want and still be Bahai.

Bahais tell other Bahais the wrong things because they are disunited in their hearts. They don't realize what real unity is. Real unity is not our idea of what it is.
I don't see anything wrong with questioning something you are confused about! Why wouldn't you? If something feels wrong, perhaps it is? I don't see you as causing disunity, quite the opposite, you are trying to unify the knowledge and truth that you know and for you it feels wrong....its intuition. Don't ever deny yourself when you feel something is wrong! You are going against your spirit.

I think you know the answer to your question Exhalt, its in your heart.

MichaelAW

i feel many feel are chased off by some good intentioned repiles. Some of you don't seem to see how long and wordy posts seem to come at you from all sides and poster feel overwhelmed and with draw. reading one posts many assumptions seem to be made and i feel most times people need not calculated words but a shoulder to support them as they come to term with their emotions and thoughts, yes even man.
michaelaw