LordOfGoblins

I have a question regarding the bible where we are told false prophets shall arise and decieve people.

“Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. For false christ’s and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. If therefore they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go forth, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them." Matthew 24:23-26

I am just going to cut to the chase. When I do a search on the internet and see who has claimed to be Jesus to decieve people esp before the time of Baha'u'llah, the number is very small and even of those they are so obscure and never had a following of more than a thousand. Does anyone then have ideas what this verse could mean? It just doesnt seem there are all that many people claiming to be "false prophets" aside from the odd obscure cult leader and often in their case they do not claim prophethood even though they do decieve people. And also. Where are the great signs and wonders??
All I can think of really is scientology and the person who started that did it sortof out of a joke. So do we expand the definition of false prophets and false Christs to understand this verse?
thanks.

BruceDLimber

Bascially, false religions--most of them, at least!--tend to die out fairly soon, whereas true religions thrive and endure over the years.

Further, scriptures state that a good tree can't bear bad fruit, and vice versa.

And the Baha'i Faith, for example fulfills many prophecies in earlier scriptures as well as matching proof verses there; see this site for the details:

Click on one of the following to navigate further down this page Religious Unity

Peace, :-)

Bruce

arthra

Lord wrote:

All I can think of really is scientology and the person who started that did it sortof out of a joke. So do we expand the definition of false prophets and false Christs to understand this verse?

My comment:

"We" don't "expand the definition" of false prophets or "think" of scientology..

Yes plenty people do that but as Baha'is we don't throw the term around like some of our Christian friends.. The term "False prophets" is practically worthless because many Christians throw it at each other..so we don't need to be involved in that at all...

Lord wrote:

What does the verse mean?

There were many claims of Messiah around the time of Jesus..and some were noted by Josephus... One would be Simon bar Kochba who led the revolt against Rome..so you could say this verse was historiclaly fulfilled in the first century or so after Jesus walked the earth...but many Christians don't know their history.

The other application of the word prophet comes from an order in the early church itself..Certain individuals would stand up in the church and prophesy.. and some were false so the church had a problem within itself to correct.

There were also many different kinds of Christians at the time.. and the church was not all that united..so there were Gnostics, Docetists and others ...

Fadl

Ever watched Trinity Broadcast Network?

LordOfGoblins

Hi Fadl.



Go to 1:30.
lmao

Yeshua

"I RELEASE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO THIS MAN'S LIFE?" JESUS CHRIST - THE SPIRIT OF ENTREUPREURSHIP?

That's just sick. What a corruption of Christianity, what a corruption of religion.

I've never heard of this channel but oh boy that was completely ANTI-CHRISTIAN!

Ugh. Its repulsive.

LordOfGoblins

lol.
It is repulsive but i cant stop watching it!!!
Aaaaaaahahahaha

Yeshua

I also would find it hilariously funny but for the chilling prospect that people actually believe in a such a materialistic "prosperity gospel". Its truly shocking.

Fadl

The point is, if it's false prophets you seek, you need look no further than TBN to find plenty of examples of them. Sometimes people think the idea that the false prophets mentioned in the Bible might actually be "Christians" (rather than Muslims, Baha'is, etc.) is an odd idea, but think about it: Why should it be someone from outside Christianity?

A 'wolf in sheep's clothing" means a wolf that looks like a sheep but isn't, right? It seems logical that the "sheep" in danger of being deceived by "wolves in sheep's clothing," are the followers of Jesus, the Christians. Therefore, a "wolf" resembling a "sheep" (following the same logic) ought to be someone who looks like a Christian but isn't. It's an insider, not an outsider job. That's how I see it, anyway.

Fadl

This guy is one of my fav's:





Is anyone else picking a distinctive dog-like scent coming from this 'sheep'?

Yeshua

Dear brother Fadl,


I don't think its odd at all. We've had many false prophets from within Christianity - Valentinus, Arius, Montanus and of course the antipopes who rivalled the power of the authentic Popes, to name only a smidgeon. We also had the legitimate (in terms of sucession alone) but truly awful Borgia popes during the pornocracy (it doesn't mean the same thing as the modern word lol). Time would fail me to write out a comprehensive list for you of all the others.

Jesus in fact predicted that false prophets would arise from within the Christian movement, explicitly, in the following passage:


"...Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’..."


And in this passage:


"...I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..."


Initially, in the context of the situation at hand, Jesus was referring certainly to the Jews as "sons of the kingdom" but in retrospect many Church thinkers have applied it to Christians since after all it was Jesus who preached that the "kingdom of God was at hand" and so sons of the kingdom is surely a fitting name for all his followers!

The Church Father, St Gregory Nazianzus, explained this perfectly when he said [at the funeral of his father, a convert to the Catholic Church late in life from paganism]:


"...He was ours even before he was of our fold. His way of living made him such. For just as many of ours are not with us, whose life makes them other from our body [the Church], so many of those outside belong to us, who by their way of life anticipate the faith and need only the name, having the reality..."

- St. Gregory of Nazianzus, <Oration> 18.5 (c. 374 AD)


Yes you read that right, and from an Orthodox Church Father too - there are many non-Christians who are actually true Christians and many Christians (formally members of the Church) who are in fact false Christians. This is completely in line with what Jesus said above in the Gospel of Matthew: Its not those who say "Lord, Lord" but those who do the "will of the Father".


As Saint Augustine wisely remarked:


"...How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!...When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body.... All who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark..."

- Saint Augustine, Church Father (354–430 AD), Baptism 5:28:39

Fadl

Dear Yeshua,

Wow! I had not seen some of these things before that you posted. I had even forgotten the verse:
"...Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’..."
I am glad you reminded me of it.

Thank you for supporting my hunch on this. And yes, while what these men do can make us laugh for the sheer absurdity and outrageousness of it all, that so many are deceived and led astray by these spiritual circuses is no laughing matter at all.

Beware the false prophets indeed.

Yeshua

Amen!


Whenever I come across such people, in whatever religion I find them, I always make sure that I keep close to my heart the words of the Book of James in the Bible, the verses which state:


"...Be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves. For if any are hearers of the word and not doers, they are like those who look at themselves in a mirror; for they look at themselves and, on going away, immediately forget what they were like. But those who look into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and persevere, being not hearers who forget but doers who act—they will be blessed in their doing. If any think they are religious, and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world..."

- James 1.22-27


BTW I think that you have raised some really important points in this thread. Your "hunch" is confirmed if you take the entirety of this portion of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7) and reflect on it as a harmonious whole:


"... ‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”

- Jesus, Gospel of Matthew 7:15-21


It should thus be apparent to any careful reader that the "false prophets" Jesus is warning his disciples about are from within rather than from without the Christian religion.

This is reflected in the Writings of the Church Fathers. In no single place that I know of does any Church Father ever refer to a non-Christian religious figure as a "false prophet". They might condemn false "idol-worship", false gods, false forms of worship - but you never see the term "false prophet" applied by the Fathers to anybody outwith the Christian movement. Rather we find that schismastic leaders such as Montanus who became heretics by breaking away from the authority of the Episcopate and founding splinter groups within Christianity are referred to as the false prophets predicted by Jesus. Thus the heretic Christian Montanus is referred to by St Jerome as, "Montanus, that mouthpiece of an unclean spirit" - that is a false prophet. And Origen in his Homilies writes, "And even today there are in the true Israel, that is, in the church, certain false prophets and false teachers to whom these words are making an advance" - again we see that the Fathers understood Christ's prophecy of false prophets to refer solely to fellow Christians within the Church. Moreover, in his work “Against Heresies,” St Irenaeus, like Justin, recognizes the existence of false prophets in his day, and once more they are within the Church not outside of it. An example of the workings and character of a false prophet in those days is given in Chapter XIII in Irenaeus' work, headed “The Deceitful Arts and Nefarious Practices of Marcus" - who was a Christian who formed his own group in schism from the Catholic Church.

And so we find that the Church Fathers never once used the term "false prophet" in reference to anybody outwith the Christian movement. Rather their opinion of non-Christian religious figures was very positive.

For example St Clement of Alexandria, in the 2nd century CE, had high praise for Buddha:


"...Among the Indians are those philosophers who follow the precepts of Buddha, whom, on account of his extraordinary sanctity, they have raised to divine honours..."

— Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies), Book I, Chapter XV


The story of the birth of the Buddha was also not unknown: a fragment of Archelaos of Carrha (278 CE) mentions Buddha's virgin-birth, and Saint Jerome (4th century CE) said that he "was born from the side of a virgin... Queen Maya came to bear the Buddha after receiving a prophetic dream in which she foresaw the descent of the Bodhisattva (Buddha-to-be) from the Tusita heaven into her womb."


And of other belief systems:


"Thus philosophy, a thing of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity among the barbarians, shedding its light over the nations. And afterwards it came to Greece. First in its ranks were the prophets of the Egyptians; and the Chaldeans among the Assyrians; and the Druids among the Gauls; and the Sramanas among the Bactrians; and the philosophers of the Celts; and the Magi of the Persians, who foretold the Saviour's birth, and came into the land of Judaea guided by a star. The Indian gymnosophists are also in the number, and the other barbarian philosophers. And of these there are two classes, some of them called Sramanas, and others Brahmins."

— Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies)


Clement of Alexandria, two thousand years ago, wrote that pre-Christian philosophers were often inspired by God.


St Justin Martyr (103–165) lauded and reverenced the great Greek philosophers as genuine prophets:


"...We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them..."


Of Plato Justin wrote:


"...Well done, Plato! Thou hast touched on the truth...Whence, O Plato, is that hint of the truth which thou givest?...let it not be this one man alone--Plato; but, O philosophy, hasten to produce many others also, who declare the only true God to be God, through His inspiration...For the knowledge of God, these utterances, written by those we have mentioned through the inspiration of God..."


Yes, Plato is described as being inspired by God. From his writings we learn also that Clement of Alexandria came to faith after a personal search for philosophical truth that had led him on a good many travels. Clement led the catechetical school and many believe his writings were used in the training. It is clear that Clement followed in the philosophical mindset of Philo. He quotes or alludes to Plato hundreds of times. For Clement, Plato was the Moses of the Greek world, revealing the truth of God through his philsophical insights.

As you can see the Church Fathers regarded the "prophets" and "holy figures" of religions outwith Christianity as being genuinly inspired by the Holy Spirit and not as "false prophets", a term reserved only for heretic Christians who formed schisms.

And so we find that the Fathers highly praised the prophets of a great number of religions and proclaimed them as being inspired, including:


- The philosophers of the Buddha and Bactrian Buddhists (Sramanas)

- The Buddha himself

- The great Greek philosophers Plato, Aristotle, Socrates and Heraclitus (among others)

- The prophets of the Egyptian faith

- The prophets of the Chaldean people

- The Druids of the Gaulic people

- The philosophers of the Celts

- The Magi of the Zoroastrian faith whom Clement says had genuine prophecies about the birth of Christ

- The Sages and Prophets and priests of the Hindu religion (Brahmins, Gymnosophists)


This is why Pope John Paul II once said, "You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions...From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties."



What are your thoughts on this brother Fadl?

Sen McGlinn

A little parallel for your pleasure:

LordOfGoblins

Gosh. I just dont get how ppl can buy into this stuff. It is not even convincing a little bit. Not the healing or the wonders that they do. Then if one goes around and parades their donation money with a private jet and fancy cloths, it becomes too obvious. Are humans getting dumber???
ah well you dont have to answer that. THanks for the information...

Yeshua

Wow! A fantastic Qur'anic parallel Sen! Definetly speaking from the same hymn sheet.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fadl Ever watched Trinity Broadcast Network?

Never.

(Just lucky, I guess . . .)


Bruce