LordOfGoblins

It is clear to me that the writings do not cover a lot of topics that are to do with how we can have the correct mental attitudes to cope with troubles in this life. There are certain statements eg to be thankful in times of trouble etc, but in terms of practical things we dont have a lot.

One approach that seems to be helping me is to adjust my thinking according to the sitation to look to the future with hope at times and at other times to stop looking to the future and just take things day by day live in the present. The trick is to know when exactly to do this. Has anyone experienced a similar thing?? Which approach works better for you? To look to the future or just ignora the future and live in the present.
Any thoughts is welcome even not directly relating to the question..

tonyfish58

Funny is it not Boy we are all so different

I think exactly the opposite. I think the only source for what you have asked "to have the correct mental attitudes to cope with troubles in this life," is the writings.

I think the key may be to accept that nothing happens to you that is not a bounty from God to help you on your spiritual quest.

To do this we have to learn to completely submit to God...how we do this? This page offers an explanation and mentions Fasting.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 336-338

This is a way to look at each situation life throws at you

“Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility.” ― Bahá'u'lláh

The link to above also has many other gems - Bahá'u'lláh Quotes (Author of The Kitab-I-Aqdas)

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

Tony if that were the case then the topic of psychology would be redundant and Bahais would not need to seek answers to their problems from pyschologists or mood-management courses. I dont believe the writings describes all those things.
Do you believe all books written by Bahais about such topics are redundant because of the writings of Baha'u'llah? Bahai pychologists have written a fair bit. I am not one to be keen on pyschologist self-help books by nature as a lot does not correlate to how I see things, but I dont think the writings cover these topics in the way that I am talking about.
For example. Be thankful in adversity is something that is an overarching aspect that one should have about their life. However when one is truly suffering I dont see how in the moment they can always FEEL thankful. Are we not human?
Baha'u'llahs writings do not cover everything... Have you read lights of guidance? That is Shoghi Effendi being practical about the writings..

Pollwr

I sort of agree with you both. I think that the writings tell us what we should be doing but for many things we need help on understanding how to put this into practice. I think that is where the psychologists and motivators come in.

I think it is easy to recognise when someone is thankful in adversity but when you are heavily burdened with problems understanding how to adopt a thankful frame of mind is the challenge.

Eric

One thing that crosses my mind is the dynamics of prayer, Shoghi Effendi wrote about how to use prayer when dealing with about anything. I reckon that it's posted before.

Dynamics of Prayer (Shoghi Effendi)

Another thing that crossed my mind is the 'Miracle Question', which is a method in the field of social work. You ask the cliënt to imagine that he or she wakes up and that a miracle has happened. The world is exactly like what the cliënt wants it to be. Then you ask him or her to describe that world. Then you ask which steps have occured for this miracle to happen, thereby linkin the (possible) future to the present and having them describe the steps needed to get to the point they want to. We can ask ourselves the 'Miracle Question' aswell.

arthra

LOG wrote:

It is clear to me that the writings do not cover a lot of topics that are to do with how we can have the correct mental attitudes to cope with troubles in this life. There are certain statements eg to be thankful in times of trouble etc, but in terms of practical things we dont have a lot.

My comment:

I feel though you will find encouragement when needed to seek the help of competent physicians and that includes therapists!

Resort ye, in times of sickness, to competent
physicians; We have not set aside the use of material
means, rather have We confirmed it through this Pen,
which God hath made to be the Dawning-place of His
shining and glorious Cause.

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 60



The other point I think is important is that we as Baha'is recognize the spiritual side or emphasize that..so the soul or spirit is something that is not affected by say mental or emotional conditions:


Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 153

Little is Known About the Mind and its Workings

"Very little is as yet known about the mind and its workings. But one thing is certain: Bahá'ís can and do receive a remarkable help and protection in this world, one which often surprises their doctors very much!"

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, April 9, 1948: Extracts from the Guardian's Letters on Spiritualism, Reincarnation, and Related Subjects, p. 4)

948. Mental Illness Does Not Affect Our Spirit or Our Inner Relation to God

"It is very hard to be subject to any illness, particularly a mental one. However, we must always remember these illnesses have nothing to do with our spirit or our inner relation to God. It is a great pity that as yet so little is really known of the mind, its workings and the illnesses that afflict it; no doubt, as the world becomes more spiritually minded and scientists understand the true nature of man, more humane and permanent cures for mental diseases will be found. "The Guardian, much as his heart goes out to you in your fear and suffering, Cannot tell you whether electric shock treatments should or should not be used, as this is a purely medical question, and there is no reference to such details in our Scriptures. The best scientists must pass upon such methods, not laymen.

"You must always remember, no matter how much you or your others may be afflicted with mental troubles and the crushing environment of these State Institutions, that your spirit is healthy, near to our Beloved, and will in the next world enjoy a happy and normal state of soul. Let us hope in the meantime scientists will find better and permanent cures for the mentally afflicted. But in this world such illness is truly a heavy burden to bear!"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 12, 1948: Selections from Bahá'í Writings on Some Aspects of Health and Healing, a compilation of the Universal House of Justice, June 1974)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 281)

armin

Just to add to the conversation ... I think everyone agrees that we all see the world through our own eyes. We all have our own unique perspective and outlook about what life is, who we are, and what is the purpose of all this.

The one unifying power that brings all of us, all these different worlds in a sense, together is God. Us humans have our own independent will and power of choosing what to do with our lives, but the ultimate will is God's. And by that I mean, everything happens for a reason ... Like Abdul'Baha has said, humanity can not fly but with two wings! Everything has two sides to it like a coin. When the two sides come together and work together then humanity can fly like a bird and be free.

So yes, I'd say like Pollwr said earlier, both of those view points are valid and true. We need to rely on God through what we have mainly but at the same time seek knowledge from this world also and pursue all the sciences and everything man has amassed till today.

LordOfGoblins

Yes he says seek a competant physician. To me tHis says that the answers to all your problems are not always dealt in a practical way by Baha'u'llahs writings on tests and suffering.
I am sorry to everyone, that is just how I feel.
SEcondly. 'Competant physicians' dont always know what they are talking about in relation to psychological problems. That is why I have had to adapt and try to come up with my own stratergies help me work through this life. Not saying they are worthless physicians, there is much that is useful as well..

arthra

'Competant physicians' dont always know what they are talking about in relation to psychological problems. That is why I have had to adapt and try to come up with my own stratergies help me work through this life. Not saying they are worthless physicians, there is much that is useful as well..

Why not be more specific?

LordOfGoblins

Who is Baha'u'llah talking about when he says competant physicians? WHo do you think he is talking about in relation to mental problems that arise for us when we undergo severe tests. You gave this quote afterall in relation to the original topic which was how to have the right mental attitudes to get through this life. Now if Baha'u'llah is talking about doctors then I think that is irrelevent dont you think because doctors treat physical illnesses. So he must be talking about either psychologists or gurus or self-help people? Are there any number of categories one might think of?
Anyway the point is I dont think these people fall under the competant physician category that Baha'u'llah is talking about in relation to people who know how to treat such things. Psychology is very limited at the moment and does not even include an understanding that we have a soul.
So the so-called competant physicians dont really exist at the moment in my opinion.
Self-help books are all about "be positive, look on the bright side" it is the same theme rehashed over and over more or less with a few variations.
Thats all I am really saying.

LordOfGoblins

For example if I am faced with a sever test that gets me down how do i pick myself up again? Is it just a matter of saying 'put it behind you get on with it'. In my case such light-hearted nonsense is of no use nor has it ever been to heal the sorts of wounds i had.

Xue

Yes I agree with the original post that the Writings do not give direct or accurate methodology on how to live except for some small exceptions. Open-ended descriptions of situations are often given but never methodology as far as how to achieve such open-ended states such as happiness and forgiveness etc. I think that was what Arthra was getting at when he quoted the point about seeking physicians. Certainly therapists would be included in any general sense of the word physician, and thank you to Arthra for making that explicit. I have not heard many people make that point.

Regardless, each person is free to interpret the term 'physician' as they see fit and so if your definition includes therapists then that is what it includes. As for gurus, and other holistic spiritually inclined healers, why can't they be included in the category of physician? And if not, I do not think one would need to go far to find passages which could include gurus.

I gather the main point is an observation that the Scripture lacks solutions to our real world problems. As was mentioned, vague statements about being steadfast in the Holy Spirit, saying prayers, and reading the Writings does not really help. Of course saying that might set off a fire storm of opposition but I think that would be all for wrong-headed reasons. Just because Scripture lacks in certain areas does not detract from the overall quality of the Writings, and to expect Scripture to contain everything that one would ever need is absolutely ridiculous.

Eric

Perhaps this quote from the Guardian can give some comfort...

10 February 1951

"Whenever you see tremendous personal problems in your private lives, such as those the parents of ... have been called 460 upon to face, you must remember that these afflictions are part of human life; and, according to our teachings one of their wisdoms is to teach us the impermanence of this world and the permanence of the spiritual bonds that we establish with God, His Prophet, and those who are alive in the faith of God. You must always remember that the Manifestations of God, Themselves, were not immune to suffering of the most human nature; and that from the hands of their relatives, they drank the bitterest potions, Bahá'u'lláh even being proffered poison by His half-brother, Mirza Yahya. Beside their afflictions, our afflictions, however terrible for us, must seem small in comparison.

Regarding your personal affairs, the Guardian will pray that your cherished hopes may be fulfilled; and that the way may open, if you both desire it, for you to serve together the Faith you are so deeply attached to. Never lose heart, and always remember that the power in this Cause is of a nature not understood or accessible to those who have not our faith in Bahá'u'lláh."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, p. 459)

LordOfGoblins

I may have exhausted this topic. What my emphasis was is not so much that the writings are deficient. Not at all. I believe the writings give us the TOOLS to gain the ablity to gain insights to become these so-called competatnt physicians. I would not trust a psychologist as being a master of knowing how to deal with pain unless he has dealt with pain himself.
What I dont believe is that someone can take a statement from Baha'u'llah and apply it across the board as a general solution to all psychological problems without a great deal of further insight that builds upon the statement or from the persons own insights.
I completely acknowledge and believe in Baha'u'llah as being who Bahais claim him to be. My follow up posts are not intended to be harsh. But I dont like is when Bahais think that all insight is encapsulated in face-value of statements from his writings. Unless we can interpret what a competant physician looks like, the statement has no direct ability to influence us.

tonyfish58

Yes I was not real clear with my answer I suppose. Each person has there own issues in life and will need what they need to see it through.

Ultimately I do see the writings containing all we need (The ideal world)

But we are not in an ideal world, we have messed it up quite a bit. I am fully aware of depression and its effects, we all suffer it time to time.

I was married to a Manic Depressant for 22 years who was a Baha'i. The writings could not help Her unfortunately. But in saying that, Her condition lead Her away from pursuing the writings. I have no idea how you get a person out of a depression spiral. I know Drugs do not work. I would still tell my ex wife that with prayer and reading the writings, it could do no harm to try.

In the future the true physician will have medical science on one hand and spiritual guidance on the other. With both they will be wonderful healers.

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

1. No such thing as an ideal world. IS there? Can you explain what you mean by this...
2. You cannot possibly be"I am fully aware of depression and its effects, we all suffer it time to time." For that level of understanding one needs to be a manifestation of God. That is the acme of understanding all reality and only then can you say you fully understand a disease. Sorry thats just how it is. I am of the opinion that if someone can fully understand a disease they also would have the ability to cure it.
You like me are just human and you see with a limited ability to understand what depression really is.
But even then I would trust a persons understanding of something less who has not been through it, unless God gives them their knowledge.
3.
"Each person has there own issues in life and will need what they need to see it through."
thats a really "helpful" observation....

Sorry I am not having a go at you. But I feel you are not considering some of these comments.
If you dont realy know about something it is better to be silent then claim knowlwedge.

arthra

I don't think anyone is saying

'put it behind you get on with it'

That's why we have prayers.

But wouldn't it help to simply say what you mean when you wrote:

"In my case such light-hearted nonsense is of no use nor has it ever been to heal the sorts of wounds i had"

What sort of wounds have you had? If you don't come out and articulate it how can others respond?

You will only feel more isolated if you keep it inside...

cire perdue

Tony, Bipolar is a physiological condition that cannot be helped without medications first, then counseling. I became bipolar in Oct when I had a stroke. It's been loads and loads of fun, lemme tell ya'. Talk about a booby prize for old age. If this had happened at an earlier time in my life I am not sure what shape I would be in, perhaps like your ex. I am so sorry. I find this is much more devastating that I could have realized. The depression is MUCH worse than for which I had been treated. Without the right medications there may not be any, ANY intervention. We are still working on me. I am incredibly grateful to have had a lifetime of working on myself and having the Faith.

Anyone who relies solely on the Writings is going to be cheated sorely of knowledge that may be necessary to flesh out a life. The Writings made what I found in Al Anon valid to me, because the 12 Step Programs had spiritual truth in them, and AA is approved by the Faith for alcoholics. IF one is grounded in the Faith other knowledge can make sense. The Faith is like the foundation for things, but if you are depressed and cannot handle things get help. The Writings are like goals to reach for, not necessarily where one should already be. We are meant to go out of ourselves if we fall or are hurt. It takes knowledge to deal with things we don't know how to cope with. It can come from friends, Baha'is, professionals, and/or loved ones, but we are not to just expect to pull ourselves up when we fall. That's unfair.

arthra

So are we talking about manic depressive disorder on this thread?