Fadl

I'm not talking about Hollywood's idea of demonic possession. I'm not talking about cases of mental illness. I'm not even talking about the beliefs about demonic possession common among our Christian brothers and sisters. I'm talking about demonic possesion that would be defined by the the Baha'i understanding of demonic the Baha'i understanding of evil, and the Webster's definition of possession. With all this in mind, is demonic possession not something that we should be concerned about?

What say ye?

LordOfGoblins

Ummm...
What?
Your post has me mystified.
Can you explain your position a little more?
The Bahai understanding is that it actually does not exist. It is the vices in man..

Fadl

Let me see if I follow your logic.


it (demonic possession) is vices of men.
it (demonic possession) does not exist.
vices of men do not exist.

Would you like to reconsider your position, my brother?

LordOfGoblins

Demonic possession literally doesnt exist. Vices do exist. But what was the initial discussion supposed to be about? Demonic possession or vices?
I draw a distinction to reduce confusion. Vices exist. Demonic possesion doesnt...

Fadl

Actually, if you read the sacred scriptures, you will find that demons and demonic possession do exist, at least as ideas. So my question is, what do these ideas signify? It is fashionable these days to be in one of two camps: demons are indeed entities lurking in the fires of hell or in the shadows, who can get people to do things seemingly against their will and even control them, and those of the camp who write it all off as superstion, or perhaps due to ignorance of mental diseases, etc.

As a Baha'i I find both positions unsatisfactory since, firstly, the sacred scriptures (including the Bible) are divine and I am not inclined to believe that God has revealed superstition or falsehood to us, and secondly, if it were merely a word for mental illnesses before modern science, there are too many examples where that would clearly not be the case.

In our writings and others, we are warned of the Evil One. We are also warned of our bestial and satanic inclinations. Might not these very things become so chronic, severe, and dangerous, that demonic possession is the most applicable term? And I would posit that these 'vices' as you called them, can indeed possess an individual and destroy his life and possibly imperil his very soul. Is that not demonic possession?

I don't like the idea at all that those concepts in the sacred books are merely dismissed as superstious and therefore irrelevant ideas of an ignorant by gone day. In fact, when I look at the world, I see the legions of the Evil Whisperer basically running amok and possessing more than a few unfortunate souls.

LordOfGoblins

I dont know if you would want to use the term demonic possession because its reinforcing ppls idle fancies. In this revelation darkness is changed to light and superstition changed to knowledge.
The refined understanding sees it is a symbol of mans ego. Now I am currently struggling to find the reference and I dont have time to explore the writings too much but I thought it was Abdul'Baha who said this.
As for the books of the past being wrong. We shouldnt worry about that. People apply their undertandings over time and often what is taught in the past is taught to their capacity anyway. Like Baptism causing purification of the soul which Abdul'Bahas says is no longer needed. So thats not an issue because it comes under the banner of 'progressive truth'...
You might see everyone subjected to the 'evil whisperer' but that doesnt affect what Baha'u'llah intended when he wrote that which is essentially also a symbol.
Vices are very powerful. In fact it is because of vices that the manifestation of God comes... As we know to put us in the fire and make us heavenly rather than satanic..


"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
Matthew 3:11

Essence of GOD

there is a One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge.
just in-case anyone catches a demon lol

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

"To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests."

Fadl

It's a pity how they've set this up! I could show them proof of demons but they are looking for the super natural and, alas, demons are completely natural. Talk about rigging a result!

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fadl Actually, if you read the sacred scriptures, you will find that demons and demonic possession do exist, at least as ideas.

Not in the Baha'i scriptures!

And as LG pointed out, these scriptures update and do away with many of the "demonic" superstitions prevalent in various older scriptures.

So God being One, Supreme, and without equal or rival; and satan merely referring to our own lower (animal) nature when we choose to give it control istead of our higher (spiritual) nature, from our POV there is no basis whatever for your statements about "demons."

Peace, :-)

Bruce

LordOfGoblins

__________________________

You have asked why it was necessary for the soul that was from God to make this journey back to God. Would you like to understand the reality of this question just as I teach it or do you wish to hear it as the world teaches it? -- for if I should answer you according to the latter way, this would be but imitation and would not make the subject clear.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm. The world of nature is defective. Look at it clearly, casting aside all superstition and imagination. If you should leave a man uneducated and barbarous in the wilds of Africa, would there be any doubt about his remaining ignorant? God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 76)

_____________________

Abdul'Baha ftw!!

Fadl

Bruce,

Have to disagree with you, my friend. Demons, satan, evil spirits, exist in some form or other in all the scriptures, including ours. It is true that we have, or at least should, have a different understanding of these things than the superstitious interpretations that exist, but that doesn't mean the phenomenon that has been described in various ways in all the religions is now a non-phenomenon in the Baha'i faith. We do not believe that evil spirits and satan are ethereal entitities floating about trying to trick us and do us harm. However, demonic attributes being the absence of angelic ones, and satanic attributes being the absence of Godly ones, is an existent phenomenon attested to in our writings. The fact that the evil whisper who whispers in men's breasts is the manifestation of our base animalistic natures, that fact that it is this not villain with a pitch fork, does not mean it doesn't exist. When talk about the nonexistence of evil it does not mean there is no such thing as evil it means that it is a negative existence not unlike darkness or emptiness. I'm sure none of us would say that there is no such thing as darkness, cold, or a void simply by saying that these are negative existence and the absence of something else.

Now, if satanic and demonic things are those associated with our base animal selves, i.e hatred, anger, fear, etc. then clearly demonic possession would be the condition where one of these satanic or demonic influences have a hold on are present in an individual in a high degree. Since any human being is susceptible to such things and the ramifications are actually quite serious, then it is not so that we are talking about superstition and myth. I don't think that the prayers we have that ask for our protection from satanic fancies, or the evil one are merely beling literary.

LOG posted a very appropriate quote of the Master. I think if you read it, then you will see that the Master explains the reality of these things quite well and does not at all suggest as you seem to, that it is all based on superstion. It seems unlikey that God revealed superstions to his messengers and now he "tells us straight" because we've become so advanced. Rather, the truth was always there as we have it but people understood it wrongly and in a superstitious way.

LordOfGoblins

"Regarding your question relative to the condition of those people who are described in the Gospel as being possessed of devils; this should be interpreted figuratively; devil or Satan is symbolic of evil and dark forces yielding to temptation."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 2, 1938: Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects, p. 4)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 513)

Well there is no point in debating IMO.
In terms of saying "demonic possession" in the Bahai view.
It is not vocabulary I would use as a Bahai (Other than to elucidate past references) cos it is misleading as well as the atrocities in the past commited under the excuse that their victim was 'demon-possessed'.
But anyway..

cire perdue

Quote: "In fact, when I look at the world, I see the legions of the Evil Whisperer basically running amok and possessing more than a few unfortunate souls."

There is safety in numbers and people get drawn up into things from fashion to war. I don't blame you for thinking this way, but consider collusion as a human practice and the number of governmental bodies that practice collusion as they "govern" their countries. There are legions running amok figuratively possessed by the Evil Whisperer, but it is of their own making by giving into temptation. They are naturally attracted to each other.

Fadl

I'm with you, CP.

And of course I am being figurative when I speak of the masses being "posessed." I should be clear in stating that I do not think that the masses are twitching, convulsing, and levitating above their mattresses uttering profanities in latin....or I certainly hope not! :-o But it is strange to me, how, when we read the Master's explanation of these things that we go from the extreme that demons are like evil ghosts to the other extreme that demons were ever only fairytales of the "less perfect religions" of former times makes little sense. The fact there are not thousands of vapory demons and that such supernatural entities do not exist does not make me feel safe and at ease because I have learned that in reality there is a demon potentially chained to each and every soul that breaths on earth due to our animal nature and capacity for evil. So the reality of the situation is actually much more dangerous and horrifying than the fanciful one previously imagined and requires all seriousness and diligence to keep ourselves safe from the crafty and all pervasive evil one that lurks in our very breasts.

arthra

1731. Evil Spirits

"As to the question of evil spirits, demons and monsters, any references made to them in the Holy Books have symbolic meaning. What is currently known among the public is but sheer superstition."

(From a Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá: Spiritualism and psychic Phenomena, p. 3)


1733. Evil Spirits Refer to Lower Nature of Man

"The reality underlying this is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature of man. This basic nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions; One is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm. The world of nature is defective. Look at it clearly, casting aside all superstition and imagination... God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil: it is simply the lower state and basic product of nature.

('Abdu'l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294-295, 1982 ed.)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 512)

In answer to those who may ask you what the stand is of your religion on the subject of demons, you can say without hesitation that the concept of Satan or the Devil as an actual being opposed to God is rejected by the Bahá'í teachings but that the term is understood by Bahá'ís to mean the promptings of self and desire and the dark side of human nature.

(13 February 1974, from the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer) [33]

(The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Dec 16, Traditional practices in Africa)

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fadl LOG posted a very appropriate quote of the Master. I think if you read it, then you will see that the Master explains the reality of these things quite well and does not at all suggest as you seem to, that it is all based on superstion.

On the contrary, 'Abdu'l-Baha himself states it's pure superstition, as Art quoted in the post just above and which I repeat here:

"1731. Evil Spirits

"As to the question of evil spirits, demons and monsters, any references made to them in the Holy Books have symbolic meaning. What is currently known among the public is but sheer superstition."

--(From a Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá: Spiritualism and psychic Phenomena, p. 3)

Peace, :-)

Bruce

cire perdue

I comprehend what you are saying Fadl. We never know when the test that will overcome us may appear. I fear I have not worked hard enough on myself in this life. I don't fear it, I believe it.

People who follow current fashion and ideas do so together for it feels like there is safety in numbers. How can one be wrong if there are so many doing the same thing?

Fadl

Bruce,

The master has not said that evil spirits and demons are "pure superstition," as you've suggested, he has said what the people believe about them is superstition. If the fact of them were made up superstition we would have a problem since all the holy books speak of them, and we would need to resolve why God's messengers were only spinning yarns. The Master has said they have a symbolic meaning, which means the reality of them is an abstraction. This is much different than being "nonexistent" or "superstitious." I don't think you are suggestion that symbolic meaning is equivalent to superstition, are you?

ahanu

The Bible is divine? You might want to clarify what you mean when you write "the sacred scriptures (including the Bible) are divine." The Bible contains a lot of contradictions . . . so how can it be divinely authored by God, a perfect being? The Bible is confusing!

Okay. Your modern definition of demonic possession now differs from what the Gospels state. Matthew, for example, has this to say:

"Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, 'If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.' He said to them, 'Go!' So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water" (Matthew 8.30-32).

You can't reconcile Matthew with your definition of demons (which you define as our "base animal selves").

Demons--evil, independent entities--are clearly described as having the ability to speak, although they inhabit another person's body. This means they have their own consciousness. They can enter a body, mainly one receptive to evil spirit(s), and they can submit to the command of Jesus.

I haven't read all of the holy books, but Matthew's prescientific mind was clearly superstitious. His account of this incident also contradicts Mark, who states there was one demon possessed man, not two of them:

Compare Mark with Matthew's version:

Here are some characteristics of the demon possessed that I noticed:

(1) "cut himself with stones"
(2) cry out night and day
(3) people tried to bind him (because he attacked others?)
(4) lived in the tombs (I wonder what type of people lived in tombs back then)
(5) according to Luke, he doesn't wear clothes

I have no clue why Mark and Matthew include this story in the Gospels. I mean, yes, it is to show Jesus' authority over demons, but their culture and language are so far distant from my own that this story has no meaning for me.

cire perdue

"(1) "cut himself with stones"
(2) cry out night and day
(3) people tried to bind him (because he attacked others?)
(4) lived in the tombs (I wonder what type of people lived in tombs back then)
(5) according to Luke, he doesn't wear clothes"

This sounds like psychosis! I'm sure schizophrenia was impossible to comprehend!

armin

In my understanding there's quite a difference between what we understand as 'demon' and 'evil spirits'. I do not recall any mention of demons in the writings of Baha'u'llah or the Bab. However there are numerous mentions of 'evil ones' or 'the Evil one'. The Evil one refers to a specific evil minded, evil spirited person. Regardless, I'd steer clear of such terms as 'demonic possession'. Though to us, as a whole, or individually, it may mean something more along the lines of our own evil spirit, the basic nature of man, which can take over individuals as they follow their own idol fancies, to many others it may suggest an entirely independent being, a singular Demon, or many demons which can take hold of us irrespective of our own will.

Fadl

Ahanu,

The Bible is certainly divine:


Inscription in the Old Bible Written by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian:


"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God."


‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás.

The difficulty with resolving what you've quoted below with Baha'i understanding is not settled by casting it out of the Bible as some fantastic tale. It seems to me that you have read the narrative of the pigs and demons literally, and when you say the Baha'i definition of possession differs from that of Mathew, I am confused. I know our writings have explained demons and their symbolic meaning, but where does Mathew give an opposing definition? I suppose if I must read Mathew literally and from it infer a definition of demons then you may have a point. But why is it that I would believe that a literal reading is the best and intended reading, when the Gospels are full of parables?

When the Bible is read as a factual, historical narrative, it is contradictory and confusing. Why read it that way? The Bible is not a book of facts. It may very well contain some facts, but the Bible is a book of truths, not a book of facts, and there is a difference. It is no different for the Qur'an, and as Baha'is we hold the Qur'an in a slightly higher category than the Bible.

In the Qur'an the ants talk to Solomon. So I must either believe that ants can talk, or reject the divinity of the Qur'an. Of course, there is a third option...


Cheers

LordOfGoblins

THis is what I was getting at earlier.
I want to give an explanation as to why I think this is so.
If the nature of Baha'u'llahs revelation is to lead mankind to all truth, considering how often susperstion and idle fancy is stressed in the writings as a veil or vien imaginings; it is my understanding that the Bahais are trying to lead mankind into an age of enlightenmeant. IN this new age almost all superstitions will be eradicated.
I dont have anything against the concept of 'demon posession' as it pertains to people who have many vices but even in light of that, the concept makes little sense to me. Whose to say WHO is possessed with many vices??
WHo has the ability to judge another mans spiritual character and say "Yep he has 12 demons inside of him. Hatred, apethity, laziness, impatience etc".
We are not really in a position to do that IMO.
All we can do is try to educate man. The holy books of old elude to these things, the "seven devils that resided in Mary magdelane" But to be totally honest with you, this level of understand is preschool in comparison to the level that Baha'u'llah was trying to drive man towards.
In the days to come we will see spiritual people guided with divine insights giving man more and deeper insight into the nature of man and what these vices are and how perfection relates to his imperfection etc.
To go back the the dark-ages language of demons and devils is nothing more than a backwards step.
Sorry in advance if I have stepped on anyones toes here, that is not my intention at all. I am just sharing part of the vision of how I see this aspect of the teachings unfold, that is all...

ahanu

Because of what other ancient people during that time believed . . .

According to some acient writers during that period, demons are defined as the souls of dead people.

The Jewish philosopher Philo writes:

"The souls of dead men are called demons.”

The early Christian apologist Justin Martyr writes:

"...there are those who are seized and tormented by souls of the dead, whom all call demons and madmen."

Note that Justin Martyr says "all" call demons the "souls of the dead."

Josephus called demons the "spirits of the wicked":

". . . demons, which are no other than the spirits of the wicked, that enter into men that are alive and kill them, unless they can obtain some help against them."

According to Wikipedia, Philo lived from 20 B.C. to 50 A.D., meaning that his beliefs about demons show us what some believed during the time of Christ. Josephus reflects the views of some Jews during the latter half of the same century Christ died. As for Justin Martyr, he lived during the second century. All three show no indication of an advanced view of demons (as defined by Abdu'l-Baha).

This is shooting in the dark. I don't know if the writers of the gospels would agree with their definition of demons, but I do know that this belief existed during that time period, and, therefore, the gospel writers could have the same view.

Maybe the pigs or demons in this particular story can symbolize something else, like . . . ?

ahanu

We can resolve it when we consider progressive revelation. This is assuming that Jesus believed in demons as independent entities that exist out there . . . or if Jesus did not believe in demons as independent entities, maybe he taught according to the spiritual capacity of the people during that time. It's hard to know what Jesus believed; we don't have any writings from Jesus himself.

LordOfGoblins

CAN I CHIME IN HERE???
THE question you might want to ask yourself is "what scared the pigs into running down the bank and drowning themselves in the river?"
Given that there is no reported event of demons ever leaping from bodies and causing things to suddenly run into the ocean or charge onto incoming trafic whether it be human or animal.
This being the case, I think the key to the interpretation lies in that.
Something startled those pigs, if we are to take the story of their existance as literal (demons are always symbolic).

LordOfGoblins

Here is another question? How does JEsus go about "casting devils out of ppl".
What is the modern-day equavalent of Baha'u'llah or the Bab casting the devil out?
All I can think of is someone met them and was suddenly transformed like Badi or something..

ahanu

If we're going to argue the demons are symbols for our lower nature, then perhaps a herd of around 2,000 pigs is symbolic too. What could pigs symbolize? Why pigs? Why do they drown in water?

ahanu

According to ancient belief, did demons have a tendency to seek water?

Mark 9.22: "And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him." Mark 5.13: "And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea." Matthew 12.43: "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none." The Talmud warns against drinking water "on Wednesday and Sabbath eve or from pools or rivers at night." After all, one could drink a demon!

Yeshua

Ahanu, I think we are missing a great deal of symbolism here, apparent in the biblical tradition itself rather than Philo, Josephus or any other extra-biblical authority.

The Hymn of the Pearl, a beautiful and completely extant ancient mystical-Christian parable from the Syriac (Thomasine) tradition, is an allegorical story from the second or third century AD about a Prince sent to Egypt by his father to recover a pearl, which was guarded by a massive dragon who lived in the heart of the seas. The youth makes his way to Egypt where he settles down near the serpent's lair, hoping to snatch the pearl as the awful beast lies sleeping. In the meantime he puts on Egyptian clothes so as not to look suspicious, and the locals give him food. But as a stranger to his fellow-guests in the inn, the Egyptians notice that he is a foreigner and seduce him with this food. As soon as he eats it he loses his memory. He succumbs to wordly pleasures, forgets his assignment, his royal descent and the pearl, and sinks into a deep sleep. His parents despairingly take note of all this from afar and are beset with worry for their beloved son. So they write him a magical letter to arouse the Prince from his sleep, in which they remind him of his royal descent, the pearl, his splendid robe and the promise that he should rule with his brother in the kingdom back home. The letter takes the form of an eagle and like a messenger flies to their son and speaks the message of truth. At the sound of its thrumming and its beautiful voice, the young prince awakens and remembers who he really is. He realizes that the words of the letter are already written in his heart (within him as his true nature). He then goes in to the seas and charms the dragon, taking the pearl and returning to his Father's Kingdom.

Its a parable of the soul that has become lost in its wanderings, losing sight of its bearing, and which needs a divine messenger, symbol of the divine utterances, to awaken the memory of its origin and life's meaning. Its also a metaphor for humanity. And its a clear example of how early Christians used the "sea" as a symbol for the genesis and locus of evil and suffering on earth.

The bible depicts evil many times coming up from the waters in the form of beasts. (c.f. Dan 7:1-3). Psalm 18:4 describes a life that is being lost by drowning in a torrent of water. In Psalm 69 we read: "Save me, O God, For the waters have threatened my life. I have sunk in deep mire, and there is no foothold; I have come into deep waters, and a flood overflows me. I am weary with my crying; my throat is parched; My eyes fail while I wait for my God".

Once more the Bible makes use of the imagery of drowning in a sea of water as a symbol for the agony of human suffering caused by sin.

By driving the demon's and the unclean beasts (evil) back into the ocean (hostile forces) Jesus is shown as having authority even over the kingdom of Satan. We see that the proceeding verses also tell a story of Jesus having authority over the laws of nature. This is about demonstrating Christ's authority over evil and the imbalance caused by evil within the natural world.

From the book of Revelation, we have a vision of life restored with God: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven, and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more." 'See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them...he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more."

And the sea was no more.

In this vision of newness and restoration, there is no more sea - the energies of chaos that cause human suffering and death are done away with completely.

Therefore the "sea" is an apt symbol for ancient writers to use.

Swine were of course unclean animals for Jews. Jesus tells us not to cast our pearls before swine - a metaphor thus clearly used to refer to immoral human beings.

If we read this through the lens of Ecclesiastes 1:7 "All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again" then you can get a real sense of the habitual, almost enslaved nature of people who are yoked to evil deeds - they flow back again and again into sin and are snared by "demons" ie their own vices.

The Roman Church has always understood Mary Magdalene's seven demons metaphorically as as well:

Pope Gregory the Great (c. 540-604) stated, “the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected according to Mark. And what did these seven devils signify, if not all the vices?”

I think that if Pope Gregory were alive today then he would find much resonance in what Fadl is saying in this thread.

arthra

Before modern psychiatry/psychology people used to define bizaar behaviour as well as fits and various tremors, schizophrenia and so on and defined these behaviours as demonic possession...so in the context of a thousand years or so these beliefs have somewhat carried down to the present day..

As Baha'is we don't have belief in supernatural demons or possessions, etc... including exorcism and so on.

LXXX. Thou hast asked Me whether man, as apart from the Prophets of God and His chosen ones, will retain, after his physical death, the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterize his life in this world. If this should be the case, how is it, thou hast observed, that whereas such slight injuries to his mental faculties as fainting and severe illness deprive him of his understanding and consciousness, his death, which must involve the decomposition of his body and the dissolution of its elements, is powerless to destroy that understanding and extinguish that consciousness? How can any one imagine that man's consciousness and personality will be maintained, when the very instruments necessary to their existence and function will have completely disintegrated?

Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 153)

ahanu

Greetings, Yeshua. We meet again!

One quote from Pope Gregory doesn't settle what he believed about demons. Can you provide more examples? He may have believed "demon" can mean different things in different contexts. If Justin Martyr were living, he would disagree with both Fadl and Pope Gregory, assuming Pope Gregory believed demons were vices.

This is nice, but this is just Mary Magdalene's seven demons, no? Can you provide more examples?

Yes, but, just as "heaven" can mean different things in different contexts, swine can mean different things in different contexts. I don't think this settles the question either. I would change my mind with more data.

Okay. Sea is the "agony of the human suffering."

Great. Thanks for the story. If this is the case, Christians should have no problem interpreting Moses and the Red Sea story in a different way?

Exodus 14.15-18: "The Lord said to Moses, 'Why do you cry to me? Tell the people of Israel to go forward. Lift up your staff, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, that the people of Israel may go through the sea on dry ground. And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.'”

ahanu

Around the late 90s when I was around eleven or twelve years old, I remember watching a person run up to the altar of the church, screaming! People started shouting, and the Baptist preacher announced to the congregation the person was possessed by a demon. I was scared, because the possessed man was shaking wildly. Once we walked out of the church, I remember touching a metal pole, and then a relative told me not to touch anything . . . the demon could have "went in it." I immediately snatched my hand back; I thrust them in my coat pockets.

I kid you not! True Story.

Yeshua

Ahanu

The crossing of the Red Sea has always been viewed by the Church as an allegory of Christian baptism (in both events the believers are saved by water). We have always viewed Noah's Ark the same way.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:

"...1219 The Church has seen in Noah's ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it "a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water":14

The waters of the great flood

you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,

that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.15

1221 But above all, the crossing of the Red Sea, literally the liberation of Israel from the slavery of Egypt, announces the liberation wrought by Baptism:

You freed the children of Abraham from the slavery of Pharaoh,
bringing them dry-shod through the waters of the Red Sea,
to be an image of the people set free in Baptism.16..."


The quote comes from Roman Missal. This is read out in Mass during the Easter Vigil. Augustine also compared Baptism with the crossing the Red Sea in Exodus. Just like the Israelites who crossed the Red Sea while the pursuing Egyptians were drowned, the candidates must cross the Red Sea of Baptism and their sins will be left drown in the water.


Throughout the generations, Catholic mystics have interpreted the story of the parting of the Red Sea metaphorically. As an example, here is a mystic that I quoted before on this forum, from the Eastern Christian tradition:


"...All the prophets have from the beginning cried out to my soul, imploring her to make herself a virgin and prepare herself to receive the Divine Son into her immaculate womb;

Imploring her to become a ladder, down which God will descend into the world, and up which man will ascend to God,

Imploring her to drain the red sea of sanguinary passions within herself, so that man the slave can cross over to the promised land, the land of freedom..."

- Saint Nicholai Velimirovic


So as you can see the Church has appropriated the story of the parting of the Red Sea and symbolically interpreted it to bring out its true spiritual meaning - which is man's passage through the waters of spiritual rebirth, into the liberty of the Promised Land, which is full obedience to the Will of God and freedom from slavery to sin, achieved through Christ's sacrifice/mediation.

This doesn't mean of course, that Moses didn't lead the Israelites through the Red Sea - I do believe that it is plausible that such a movement happened, despite the current lack of good archaelogical evidence, and scientists have discerned many ways that make this probable ie there are many theories that can explain why the Red Sea could have been crossed naturally but appeared to be a miracle to the Israelites. Even the Biblical narrative itself admits that it was strong gusts of wind that blew the waters apart.

I would agree that the miraculous element could very well have been purely natural. Regardless it is the timeless spiritual message which is important.

InvestigateTruth

In this age although the greatest revelation has come, the greatest satan also exist in the world everywhere to mislead mankind, the things that would attract people to else except God.

It reminds me this quote:

"Say: The Evil One hath appeared in such wise as the eye of creation hath never beheld. He Who is the Beauty of the All-Merciful hath likewise been made manifest with an adorning the like of which hath never been witnessed in the past. The Call of the All-Merciful hath been raised, and behind it the call of Satan."
- Súrih of the Temple, Baha'u'llah

LordOfGoblins

Welcome Back investigateTruth.
I missed your presence.

Fadl

Excellent quote.

I think it addresses the reason why I thought this would be an interesting thread in the first place.

In my mind, although Baha'is like to say "we don't believe in the devil or demons," (but really meaning the superstitous notions of them) to my mind, the reality of demons, satan, evil spirits, and so forth, as explained to us in the Baha'i writings, are much more dangerous and horrifying than those of myth and superstition.

The quote you brought to the discussion raises another interesting point. That is that this is the most great Day of God, and that the intensity of the goodness and truthfulness of the Revelation is so mighty and radiant, that the depth of the darknesses of evil is, necessarily so, also greater than ever before, merely by contrast to this new and most great light in the world.

Fadl

It happened more than you might think, and here is the quote giving you an idea what it my look like:

"The vitality of men's belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakim, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change."-Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 200

So as you can see, a person possessed by demons or satan, touched by Baha'u'llah, would be transformed to an individual manifesting more heavenly qualities and thus rid of manifesting evil. It may be less thrilling than the exorcism of the film "The Exorcist" but this is the real world, not Hollyworld, and this is the true battle between good and evil that is being waged in the world, not fiction.

Fadl

LOG,

In addition to asking "what scared pigs into running..." one might ask, "did any pigs run at all?"

The reason I say this is because your question, while perfectly valid and interesting, presupposes that we are reading a factual account about some actual event. It seems perfectly possible that no such event took place. The revelator of Mathew was not a contemporary of Jesus and was not a witness of any event in Jesus' time. While he may infact be giving us some historical descriptions that are factual, it is not the intent of Mathew to be a historian, it is his attempt to convey to us the greater truth that Jesus is Christ, and the good news of his great power and salvation.

Fadl

If it's a shot in the dark, nice shootin'.

I think you are right, that certainly the writers of the gospels might well have shared in what we Baha'is would call superstitious beliefs about evil and demons. Perhaps even the Apostles themselves shared in such belief. Even so, it doesn't hurt so much as we might believe since at the essence of the superstitious belief or the Baha'i belief, is the same message that we must guard against evil and that evil is a real danger in the world. The "non-existence of evil" has been somewhat misunderstood by Baha'is in my opinion. It is non-existent in the same sense that darkness is "non-existent" meaning that is the abscence of light, an "existent" thing. Light can be measured and is phenomenal, darkness cannot, and isn't. But it is absurd to think it that nonexistence of evil means there is no evil. It is just as silly as saying that night and ice don't exist for they are really the absence of light and heat.

Your question about pigs is great, and the one that I hoped someone would ask. Now to me, a westerner from a Christian background, the pig is an adoreable farm animal that makes excellent meat to accompany eggs and Christmas dinner. However, to Jews of that time, and to Jews and Muslims today, the pig clearly means something different than it does to us. I'm not saying that it isn't possible that some pigs really ran down a hill and drown, but if it is a symbol of a spiritual reality, and a symbol of Jesus' dominion over evil, then it is an interesting question, to me, why did the demons ask to inhabit pigs as opposed to sheep? Surely in such a society where pigs are not as valued, there would be a lot more sheep around to migrate demons to. Why pigs, indeed?