LordOfGoblins

In light of the fact that Baha'u'llah describes his time 'before' his reveltion as being a period where he was asleep. If that is the case and he didnt recieve his revelation until he was 37, then all the time leading up until then he is 'asleep' and when he comes awake he is the mightiest prophet mankind has seen. That is, if we compare this to normal sleep when someone sleeps more they wake more vitalized...
this is a true spiritual sign IMO.
Discuss..

arthra

In my opinion even though there are events recorded when the Manifestation "awakens" there is also a sense that they already have innate knowledge before ... One can see this in the legends and events recorded about them...

The divine teachers have the innate light; they have knowledge and understanding of all things in the universe; the rest of the world receives its light from them and through them the arts and sciences are revived in each age.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 53

Of the Bab it was said:

He is a descendant of the Prophet of God, of the family of Hashim. He is young in age, and is possessed of innate knowledge. His learning is derived, not from the teachings of Shaykh Ahmad, but from God. My knowledge is but a drop compared with the immensity of His knowledge; my attainments a speck of dust in the face of the wonders of His grace and power.

~ Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 25

Also note the spiritual school referred to in the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah:

A SECOND TABLET ADDRESSED TO 'HIM WHO WILL BE MADE MANIFEST'

May the glances of Him Whom God shall make manifest illumine this letter at the primary school.[1]

[1 In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá explains that some were misled by this statement and thought that the school referred to was a physical school for the training of unlettered children, whereas it referred to a spiritual school sanctified from the limits of the contingent world.

Bahá'u'lláh in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas also refers to this Epistle of the Báb in the following words: O Thou Supreme Pen! Move over the Tablet by the leave of Thy Lord, the Creator of the heavens.

Call Thou then to mind the day when the Fountainhead of divine unity sought to attend the school which is sanctified of all save God, that perchance the righteous might become acquainted, to the extent of a needle's eye, with that which is concealed behind the veil of the inner mysteries of Thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. Say, We, in truth, entered the school of inner meaning and exposition at a time when the minds of all that dwell on earth were wrapt in heedlessness.

~ The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 5

LordOfGoblins

Myabe the whole length of sleep is metephorical as well or something.
I wasnt talk about innate knowledge.
I was talking about why the sleep metephor is used by Baha'u'llah before he declares his mission.
But being that Muhammad was older when he declared his mission and his revelation was less intense than Baha'u'llahs, in light of that it doesnt make sense...
I have to go away and think about it..

LordOfGoblins

This is looking very hazy now.
Its a shame if my initial thought was nothing but idle fancy cos it felt like truth.
But if we look at how prophets successively came up until Baha'u'llah we see that the last one who was Baha'u'llah at the end of the cycle was the mightiest and came to propel people into the new age.
No Bahai would disagree on that point. It reminds me of something about how ancient things slowely awakening the final ones who come are always the strongest or most potent.
We are aware of 'the last shall be first the first shall be last' but Im not actually talking about that and I think it refers to something else and is not really related to this at all.
Im talking about how strength is reflected in slowness. THe strongest flood takes the longest to build up so to speak.
There is a building up of sorts that takes a long time. A tiny little river needs only a bit of rain. Consider from a distance if you are looking at the bursting of a dam.
Take superman one the movie. They had to slow everything down in order to make it look like it was real life because it was just a model.
So the stronger is more slower or comes more slowely but with more strength.
Thats what Im seeing at the moment but its not coming together..

As for innate knowledge. What does that have to do with anything.
Abdul'Baha didnt have innate knowledge as a child and wasnt a prophet yet he had it as an adult. I dont see the connection to my OP...

Eric

Perhaps this note in the Aqdas is of some use.

23. Say: God hath made My hidden love the key to the
Treasure # 15

There is a well-known Islamic tradition concerning God and
His creation: 175

I was a Hidden Treasure. I wished to be made known,
and thus I called creation into being in order that I might
be known.

References and allusions to this tradition are found
throughout the Bahá'í Writings. For example, in one of His
prayers, Bahá'u'lláh reveals:

Lauded be Thy name, O Lord my God! I testify that
Thou wast a hidden Treasure wrapped within Thine
immemorial Being and an impenetrable Mystery enshrined in
Thine own Essence. Wishing to reveal Thyself, Thou didst call
into being the Greater and the Lesser Worlds, and didst choose
Man above all Thy creatures, and didst make Him a sign of
both of these worlds, O Thou Who art our Lord, the Most
Compassionate!
Thou didst raise Him up to occupy Thy throne before all
the people of Thy creation. Thou didst enable Him to unravel
Thy mysteries, and to shine with the lights of Thine inspiration
and Thy Revelation, and to manifest Thy names and
Thine attributes. Through Him Thou didst adorn the preamble
of the book of Thy creation, O Thou Who art the Ruler of the
universe Thou hast fashioned! (Prayers and Meditations by
Bahá'u'lláh, XXXVIII)

Likewise, in the Hidden Words, He states:

O Son of Man! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee.
Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill
thy soul with the spirit of life.

Abdu'l-Bahá, in His commentary on the above-cited
tradition, wrote:

O wayfarer in the path of the Beloved! Know thou that the main
purpose of this holy tradition is to make mention of the stages of
God's concealment and manifestation within the Embodiments of
Truth, They who are the Dawning-places of His All-Glorious
Being. For example, before the flame of the undying Fire is lit
and manifest, it existeth by itself within itself in the hidden 176

identity of the universal Manifestations, and this is the stage of
the "Hidden Treasure". And when the blessed Tree is kindled
by itself within itself, and that Divine Fire burneth by its
essence within its essence, this is the stage of "I wished to be made
known". And when it shineth forth from the Horizon of the
universe with infinite Divine Names and Attributes upon the
contingent and placeless worlds, this constituteth the emergence of
a new and wondrous creation which correspondeth to the stage of
"Thus I called creation into being". And when the sanctified
souls rend asunder the veils of all earthly attachments and
worldly conditions, and hasten to the stage of gazing on the
beauty of the Divine Presence and are honoured by recognizing
the Manifestation and are able to witness the splendour of God's
Most Great Sign in their hearts, then will the purpose of
creation, which is the knowledge of Him Who is the Eternal
Truth, become manifest.

And pertaining to which Manifestation is the most mighty:

These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favoured, His holy, and chosen 104 Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others."[1] It hath therefore become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they Who are the Daysprings of God's attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty. To every discerning eye this is evident and manifest; it requireth neither proof nor evidence.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 103)

LordOfGoblins

Not sure how to reply to the other stuff you posted.
However to this statement I say this.
Our sun burns in the sky with all the qualities of a star. Its light its heat and the properties of fusion inside of it making it burn for many thousands of years.
Now not all stars are of the same size and burn with the same intensity and that is why I would say Baha'u'llah is more mighty and why he says his revelation is more potent...

cire perdue

If I am not mistaken Baha'u'llah is not a station above the previous Manifestations, BUT His Revelation is the most potent of all. Technically He is not a Prophet as the Age of Phrophecy was ended by His Revelation. All the previous revelations prophesized Baha'u'llah.

Fadl

Great point, CP. It is the revelation that distinguishes Baha'u'llah from other manifestations, and they are all equal. Any of the manifestations of the past who have ever lived could have revealed the same revelation as Baha'u'llah were it God's will, but it was timely to reveal it in this day, not in the former days, and so it was the The Bab and Baha'u'llah, who lived in this age, revealed it. Mere practical matters of the right time and the right place.

As for the being a prophet or not, this is thornier. It is certainly true that we live in a new cycle and new age which is a time of fulfillment, not of prophecy as the former age was. That being said, Baha'u'llah did "prophecy" which I guess would have to make him a prophet for who else prophecies? Also, while Baha'u'llah is in the age of fulfillment and all the other manifestations in the age preceding, they are all manifestations, and all of the same cloth. For me, the distinction lies in the fundamental change in the nature and character of the manifestation of this age. It was much bolder and much more conspicuous and much less veiled in character, and in that way, Baha'u'llah is like the first (shared with the Bab) of a new generation of "prophets" with a new garment and a new way of doing things, but under the new garment is the same soul as the prophets of old.

LordOfGoblins

There is more too it than this though. Not all the prophets have the same intensity, we already know that. In fact the prophets are not the same despite being 'equal'. In the book of John Baha'u'llah is described as being unique in greatness. Saying this person could have been that person if circumstance had provided and God had willed doestn mean much to me with (all due respect). I could also have been Baha'u'llah had it been Gods will and circumstance had provided.
He raises up whomsoever he wishes.


No. 4. There are no Prophets, so far, in the same category as Bahá'u'lláh, as He culminates a great cycle begun with Adam.

No. 5. The Greatest Name is the Name of Bahá'u'lláh. "Ya Baha'u'l-Abha" is an invocation meaning: "O Thou Glory of Glories"! "Allah-u-Abha" is a greeting which means: "God the All-Glorious". Both refer to Bahá'u'lláh. By Greatest Name is meant that Bahá'u'lláh has appeared in God's Greatest Name, in other words, that He is the Supreme Manifestation of God.

(Shoghi Effendi, Letters from the Guardian to Australia and New Zealand, p. 41)

We are going offtopic. If people want to talk in detail about the station of Baha'u'llah compared to the other prophets can you please start a new thread to do it?
thanks.