InvestigateTruth

We know there are two kind of Prophets: Nabi (Prophet) and Rasoul (Messenger).
In Quran it is said Elijah, Salih, Lot, etc. are Rasouls.
Does that mean they are Manifestations of God?

Yeshua

I would doubt it, since Elijah was a faithful Jew and did not reveal any new laws, scriptures or indeed a new religion.

One would have I think a better case at trying to suggest that John the Baptist - who was the spiritual return of Elijah - even be a Manifestation of God, given that he did reveal new practices and laws (ie immersion/baptism in Jordan) and a kind of intermediate religion between Judaism and Christianity that eventually developed into the independent religion of Mandeism.

Given that he is not recognised as a Manifestation, I doubt that Elijah is or ever could be seen thus.

InvestigateTruth

I see your point. However, it could be that a person be a Manifestation of God, but may not reveal new laws, as He would do only the Will of God.

This quote in the Book of Certitude might be relevant:

"These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favoured, His holy, and chosen Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”* It hath therefore become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they Who are the Daysprings of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty."


However in Baha'i Scriptures, there is difference between Minor Prophets and Messengers. The Minor Prophets are like the Moon. The Messengers are like the Sun, they have their own light. But the moon takes His light from the Sun. So, the Minor prophets, in my understanding are not the Manifestations of God.
For example, Imam Hussain, might be a Manifestation of God, eventhough He was functioning only as an Imam, but not as a Messenger, and Baha'u'llah is His return.

armin

Your quote is exactly that which I intended to include in this discussion. In my understanding there's a difference between the station of Manifestation of God and Prophethood/Messenger. But as the passage you quoted suggests in terms of the truth of their being and their word no difference exists among them. In a sense they are all Manifestations of God whether in their essence in the supernal realm they hold the station of Manifestation, Prophet, Messenger or a minor Prophet etc.

They have all been manifested to humanity to bring the message of God regardless of whether they had a new Revelation and started a new religion or not. From what I recall John the Baptist is considered a minor Prophet/Messenger. I would certainly consider Elijah as such, though I personally have not read the passage pertaining to Him in the Quran.

arthra

I hadn't heard of Elijah as a Manifestation of God but he would be a member of the Supreme Concourse...

"The faithful are ever sustained by the presence of the Supreme Concourse. In the Supreme Concourse are Jesus, and Moses, and Elijah, and Bahá'u'lláh, and other supreme Souls: there, also, are the martyrs."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 97

Elijah was a prophet...

"Thereupon God sent Elijah the prophet who redeemed the people, renewed the law of God and established an era of new life for Israel"

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 95

The Qur'an mentions him as "one of the messengers":


Verily Elijah was one of the messengers. When he said to his people: "Will you not fear God? "Will ye call upon Ba'al and leave the Best of Creators, God, your LORD and Cherisher and the LORD and Cherisher of your fathers of old?"

—Qur'an, chapter 37 (As-Saaffat), verse 123–126


The Arabic word is "l-mur'salīna"

Of course the cave of Elijah is on Mount Carmel...and the Master Abdul-Baha visisted that cave:

"Several days ago He retired to the Cave of Khidr,[1] and that verdant spot has been blessed by the steps of our Master, 'Him round Whom all names revolve'. He intends to stay there for a while, so that He may have some respite from His countless concerns and cares."

[1 Elijah.]

(Compilations, Bahiyyih Khanum, p. 98)

Baha'u'llah visited the Cave of Elijah

It was also in the course of this three-month-long visit that Bahá'u'lláh went to the cave of Elijah, over which a Christian monastery stands.

(H.M. Balyuzi, Baha'u'llah - The King of Glory, p. 375)

Of course there are different Caves of Elijah on Mount Carmel.



The Bab fulfilled the prophecy of the return of Elijah...

He the "Qá'im" (He Who ariseth) promised to the Shí'ahs, the "Mihdi" (One Who is guided) awaited by the Sunnis, the "Return of John the Baptist" expected by the Christians, the "Ushidar-Mah" referred to in the Zoroastrian scriptures, the "Return of Elijah" anticipated by the Jews, Whose Revelation was to show forth "the signs and tokens of all the Prophets", Who was to "manifest the perfection of Moses, the radiance of Jesus and the patience of Job" had appeared, proclaimed His Cause, been mercilessly persecuted and died gloriously.

~ Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, pp. 57- 58

Abdul-Baha also explains Who are the Universal Manifesatations:

The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 164

Further consider the following:

Know that the attributes of perfection, the splendor of the divine bounties, and the lights of inspiration are visible and evident in all the Holy Manifestations; but the glorious Word of God, Christ, and the Greatest Name, Bahá'u'lláh, are manifestations and evidences which are beyond imagination, for They possess all the perfections of the former Manifestations; and more than that, They possess some perfections which make the other Manifestations dependent upon Them. So all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 149

So Elijah would not be considered a Universal Manifesation if we consider the above in my view.

LordOfGoblins

My opinion is that they are all prophets, messengers and manifestations with different intensities and qualities even though generally speaking they all manifest the same light and promote the same cause of God and possess all general spiritual perfections to a great degree. (such as wisdom kindness patience etc)
One of the signs of Gods greatness is bringing forth things with infinite variety so I dont think the manifestations are any different to that rule.
Baha'u'llah is the biggest sun. He shines the most!!
THe most potent revelation belongs to him!!
Its an undeniable fact supported in the writings and the reason why the greatness of this day is always talked about!

Fadl

If we are to understand the Bab as the return of Elijah, and at the same time that the Bab is a manifestation, then it seems to me Elijah is a manifestation even if he didn't bring a new religion or revelation (but it isn't clear to me that he didn't).

This is my reasoning:

A.The Bab is a manifestation.
B.The Bab is the return of Elijah.
1.Elijah is a manifestion of God in the station of the Bab (his return)
2.Elijah was a manifestation prior to returning as the Bab.
3.Elijah might not have always been a manifestation.

If we except propositions A & B then 1 through 3 are all logical conclusions, however the last conclusion would be against the Baha'i teaching that a manifestion of God is always so.

Edit: I should have said that my choice is conclusion 1 that Elijah (and John the Baptist) is a manifestion of God. ;-)

Yeshua

Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe that Elijah was the greatest prophet of the Old Testament after Moses, which is why he appeared in a vision beside Christ at the Transfiguration - with Moses standing beside Jesus representing the Torah and Elijah representing all the prophets of the Tanakh.

We believe, nonetheless, that John the Baptist had an even higher station than Elijah and was the greatest of all prophets. We even place John the Baptist above Abraham and Moses. This would appear to be a point of divergence with the Baha'i Faith, since Elijah and John the Baptist are traditionally viewed as "minor prophets" whereas in Christianity they are anything but minor.

Don't forget John the Baptist was also the return of Elijah. The Bab was also the return of John the Baptist

"...The Bab is said to be Emmanuel, the most exalted Word and the return of both Elijah the prophet and John the Baptist...."

- Examiner


As John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd that John was Elijah's spiritual return:


Quote:


In fact the three of them are inseparably linked across the ages in terms of spiritual characteristics, as far as I can tell from the Baha'i writings.

In the Qu’ran, 6:85, “And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elijah, all in the ranks of the righteous”.


"...Christ announced that John the Baptist is Elijah, who was to come before Christ. And the likeness of this station is as that of lamps kindled: for these in respect to their glasses and oil-holders, are different, but in respect to their light, One, and in respect to their illumination, One; nay, each one isidentical with the other, without imputation of plurality, or diversity or multiplicity or separateness.This is the Truth and beyond the Truth there is only error..."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, BWF 370-371


"...He (the Báb) is the “Qá’im” (He Who ariseth) promised to the Shí’ahs,the “Mihdí” (One Who is guided) awaited by the Sunnís, the “Return of John the Baptist” expected by the Christians...With the transference of the remains of the Báb--Whose advent marks the return of the Prophet Elijah -to Mt. Carmel,and their interment in that holy mountain, not far from the cave of that Prophet Himself,the Plan so gloriously envisaged by Bahá’u’lláh, in the evening of His life,had been at last executed..."

Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 57-58 & 276-277

Yeshua

Arthra quoted above:

It was also in the course of this three-month-long visit that Bahá'u'lláh went to the cave of Elijah, over which a Christian monastery stands.

(H.M. Balyuzi, Baha'u'llah - The King of Glory, p. 375)


I also found this:


"... The third visit took place in 1890 when He again stayed in the German colony; and the fourth visit, about a year before His ascension, took place in 1891 when He spent about three months in that area.

It is believed to be on this occasion that Bahá'u'lláh went to the Cave of Elijah on Mount Carmel. Centuries before, a Christian order had built a monastery over it in the expectation that Christ, returning in the glory of the Father, would bless it with His presence..."

- Adib Taherzadeh, "The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh" The Charter for the World Centre: Lawh-i-Karmil

http://www.peyman.info/cl/Baha'i/Oth...1-367Ch23.html


"...Bahá’u’lláh stayed in various places during his visits to Haifa, including this spot at the foot of Mount Carmel. He also visited the cave of Elijah where centuries before, a Christian order had built a monastery in the expectation that Christ, returning in the glory of the Father, would bless it with His presence..."

- The Life of Baha'u'llah: A Photographic narrative

http://www.bahaullah.org/haifa/bahaullah-mount-carmel



I am glad that Baha'u'llah chose to go to the Catholic one - under the Catholic Carmelite monastery of Stella Maris The patron 'father' of the Carmelites is Elijah the prophet.


"...At the western edge of Mount Carmel is Stella Maris Monastery, the world headquarters of the Carmelites, a Catholic religious order.

A small cave under the monastery is held by a Christian tradition to be a place where Elijah occasionally lived — as people on Mount Carmel have lived in caves since prehistoric times.

Opposite the monastery, a footpath down towards the Mediterranean leads to another grotto called Elijah’s Cave. Here the prophet is said to have meditated before his encounter with the priests of Baal. The cave is also thought to be where Elijah established a “school of prophets”.

Mount Carmel’s most spectacular religious memorial, however, is the Baha’i Shrine of the Báb, which runs in manicured terraces up the northern slope. The site is a sacred place for Baha’is around the world..."

- "See the Holy Land", Caves of Elijah


The small cave where, according to Carmelite tradition, Elijah has stayed has an inscription which reads: "Hanc aliquando speluncam incoluit Maguns illa Prophetarum Dux et Pater Elias Thesbites", which is in Latin for "in this cave stayed occasionally the great leader and father of the prophets - Elijah the Tishbite".

This of course demonstrates the great reverence which the Carmelites as Catholics have for Elijah "the FATHER of the prophets" of the Tanakh, according to our understanding.

According to pious Carmelite lore, the monks have an unbroken succession line going straight back to the prophet Elijah whose "school of prophets" remained there after his death, succeeded by Jewish hermits and then the Carmelites themselves.

"...The Bible tells us that the Prophet Elijah fought on Mount Carmel against prophets of the Baal (Canaanite deity). From then to this day, Carmel Mountain retains its religious significance. According to tradition, Elijah hid in the cave at the slopes of the sea star ridge. Nonetheless, the Carmelite Christians sanctified an additional cave at the top of the ridge and erected a large monastery above, which today constitutes their world centre...During the late 12th to 13th centuries, the Carmelite Order was established on Mount Carmel but had to leave the Holy Land toward the end of the 13th century due to severe pressure by the Muslims.

During the Ottoman reign, the return of the Carmelites to the Holy Land was sanctioned. An agreement between the Vatican representative and Emir Turbai (local ruler of the Carmel region) concluded that the Carmelites would be given the cave of the Prophet Elijah and the holy summit.

Finally in 1836, the monastery was inaugurated and became Haifa's most important and splendorous establishment. It included a medical center and pharmacy which was of great help to the local population.The most beautiful pilgrimage inn in the country also operated as part of the monastery project.The large monastery known as the Stella Maris monastery was destroyed and rebuilt several times until its final establishment in 1836. It serves as the world center for Carmelites. The symbol of the Order is mounted above the entrance to the monastery: a symbol of a cross on top of Mount Carmel and above it, the sword of Elijah followed by this inscription: "I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts" (1 Kings 19:14). An embossment consisting of the image of Elijah lifting up his sword with the torch of faith at its tip is incorporated into the entrance door...The platform stairs lead to a quarried cave in which a stone altar was built on top of the statue of Elijah..."

Yeshua

According to Carmelite legend (about Elijah not the facts surrounding the origins of the order):

"...Between the years of 1206 and 1214, there existed a group of hermits living in Mt. Carmel in Palestine that had formed themselves into a group under the leadership of a man named Brocard...Because of the association of Mt. Carmel with the Prophet Elijah, these first Carmelite hermits took him as their "Dux et Pater", or leader and father....

This prophet of God, Elijah, was the chief of the monks, from whom the holy and ancient Order of Carmel took its origin. For it was he who, desirous of greater progress in the pursuit of divine contemplation, withdrew far from the cities and, despoiling himself of all earthly and mundane things, was the first to adopt the holy and solitary life of a prophet which he had established, at the inspiration and command of the Spirit.

In a vision God had ordered him to depart from the ordinary dwelling of men and to hide himself in the crowd, and thus live alone in solitude in the manner described according to him..."

Yeshua

These are just Pilgrim Notes from an early Baha'i - so they are not authoritative, I merely quote them out of interest (in fact a large portion of these notes are starkly apocalyptic in places). They are by a woman called Ruth Mofett, the caption says:


"...Pilgrim's Notes by Ruhániyyih Ruth Moffet, taken during her pilgrimage to the Holy Land. These are notes of conversations with Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith.

"The following are notes of table conversation given by the beloved Guardian

in the presence of Ruhiyyih Khánum and the members of the International

Council who heard them all."

- Ruth Moffet..."


Here's the part about the Cave of Elijah:


"...I asked the Guardian, "Which is the correct cave of Elijah on Mount Carmel? The larger is claimed by Moslems, the smaller higher cave by the Christian Carmelite monks, over which is the Carmelite church. The Guardian said that the smaller high cave is the correct one the cave in which all the prophets, major and minor had been. It is in this cave, which the monks have kept a candle burning for over 1700 years and a monk in constant attendance, looking in 1888 when Bahá’u’lláh revealed the Tablet of Carmel in a loud voice so that the priests and monks could hear Him..."

Here is a full online copy of the notes by this Ruth Moffett called "VISITING THE BAHÁ’Í WORLD":

http://bahaistudies.net/pilgrims/ruh...ahai_world.pdf

InvestigateTruth

Well, one of the Characteristics of Manifestations of God, is that they have innate knowledge.
So, from the forgoing, it seems to me that Elijah was a Manifestation of God, but not a universal Divine Messenger. Abdulbaha confirms in the quote that Elijah had a revelation.
Baha'u'llah says that, the Manifestations of God, have all the attributes of God, but the intensity of their revelation is different.

The Bible describes Elijah ascended to Heaven, and Jesus said no man shall ascend to Heaven except He that comes down from Heaven. So, This might denote that He was a Manifestation of God, whose Holy Reality existed, which is the station of Unity of the Manifestations of God.

InvestigateTruth

Yes, the Quran uses the word "Murs'alin", which I don't think it is different than Rasoul. Anyways in the case of "Lot", Quran calles Him a "Rasoul" (Quran 26:162)

arthra

I've visited two of the caves of Elijah while on pilgrimage.. The one at the Carmelite headquarters and what's called the Cave reccognized by the Jews...which is in a more natural setting further down the Mount.. It may be there's another one which was frequented by the Druze and the Muslims or maybe that's the same one recognized by the Jews.

See the following:

http://biblewalks.com/Sites/ElijahsCave.html

I was speaking briefly to a Christian gathering a few years ago and mentioned these caves of Elijah on Mount Carmel... and suggested that when Elijah returns...(which we Baha'is believe he has) he would visit the Muslim cave on Friday... The Jewish cave on Saturday the Sabbath and the Christian cave on Sunday. That got a few chuckles.. The truth is we can recognize there were probably prophets using these caves for centuroes before the so-called "modern era".

Along with that there is the obelisk situated at the height of Mount Carmel where a future House of Worship is projected to be built.

Image Detail for - Obelisk marking the spot where the future Baha'i House of Worship on Mount Carmel will be built.

Yeshua

Another Pilgrim Note:


"...The authentic cave of Elijah is the higher one where Baha'u'llah revealed in a loud voice so that the priests could hear him - "The Tablet of Carmel" - not the lower one where Moslem tradition places it. See Gleanings 14, 21...."

- HAIFA NOTES
BY CLARA EDGE
May 16-25

1954

The "priests" are presumabely the Carmelites who lived in the Monastery.