On the subject of children and parents.

Rani · 08-07-2012, 07:26 PM

Speaking of child-raising and education, I came across this passage a few days ago:

A child is as a young plant: it will grow in whatever way you train it. If you rear it to be truthful, and kind, and righteous, it will grow straight, it will be fresh and tender, and will flourish. But if not, then from faulty training it will grow bent, and stand awry, and there will be no hope of changing it.

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 286)

I find this surprising because from this passage it says that if a child was not raised properly there is *no hope of changing them. (?) I would have thought that religion is all about redemption and personal salvation through personal choice. Honestly I find this quote disheartening.

I think that children readily make choices about who they respect, admire and who they'd like to emulate.

From this quote it might be logical to say that when a person has passed to the next world they will be free to blame their parents for their wrong-doing, because there was no hope in changing themselves, due to faulty upbringing.
Are they to be sentenced for something they had no choice about? -That is who their parents are? And that there is no hope for them to lead holy lives?

I know that one of my parents actively, I would say, encouraged me to do wrong against my christian sensibilities /princilpes when I was growing up. Does this mean I have no free will or independent character? Albeit, I was a teenager and not a child at the time. Still, as a child, I observed behaviour or manners I did not want to copy.

Any thoughts on this topic?

Essence of GOD · 08-07-2012, 09:17 PM

well, if you think about it, it is kinda true.
however ,personally, i would say that there is always hope.
if the child wholeheartedly wanted to change that is.

Fadl · 08-07-2012, 10:34 PM

To me this means there will be no hope for complete and total change to the ideal first described in the passage. I don't think it means that there is no chance of some improvement or recovery.

tonyfish58 · 08-07-2012, 10:57 PM

Rani - With a lot of careful gardening you may remove some of the bend, but the flaw will always be there to some degree.

I have witnessed the results of this quote on a personal level. I have witnessed the progress of Children from a strong Baha'i upbringing and have witnessed the progress of Children from a broken Baha'i upbringing. The quote reflects what I have witnessed.

IMHO - I find it more of a challenge than disheartening. It does not mean that the Child has no hope, it just means that the child will more than likely have to face Tests that would not have come there way.

As a parent this is a challenge to be thoughtful of.

Regards Tony

Rani · 08-07-2012, 11:20 PM

From my perspective, justice would expect that we will be judged individually on choices we make regarding whether we follow God, etc.

I'm not my parent; I'm an individual soul, and I have not followed my parent's (incorrect) way just because they are my parent.

I thought that's what individual investigation of truth is about, and also what detachment is about. -Being detached from the ideas of others whether they be positive or negative.
I don't and won't believe that just because my parents are holy, that it makes me holy automatically, and I don't believe the converse either.
I think we should be judged solely on the degree that we turn to God individually.

tonyfish58 · 08-07-2012, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani

From my perspective, justice would expect that we will be judged individually on choices we make regarding whether we follow God, etc.

I'm not my parent; I'm an individual soul, and I have not followed my parent's (incorrect) way just because they are my parent.

I thought that's what individual investigation of truth is about, and also what detachment is about. -Being detached from the ideas of others whether they be positive or negative.
I don't and won't believe that just because my parents are holy, that it makes me holy automatically, and I don't believe the converse either.
I think we should be judged solely on the degree that we turn to God individually.

Rani - There is no argument there - The writings are clear that we will all face our own tests & judgement.

I think the passage is not referring to this though. I think the passage is showing a parent how to give their child the best chance in life.

I think the best example is the Perfect Father and the Perfect son, That is Baha'u'llah and Abdul'Baha

Us Humans will always fall a little short and yes we will answer for that, each on our own to God.

There are many non religious families out there that bring their children up full of virtues with the same success that some Baha'is also have.

I think it is a Cause & Effect Statement for us to ponder over.

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins · 08-07-2012, 11:58 PM

They are impossible to change once matured but once an adult change comes through your own efforts and not others telling you what to do!!

Rani · 08-08-2012, 02:53 AM

It's interesting.. I had a small conversation about this with a local baha'i friend, and I quickly saw that somehow I was looking at it from the perspective of the child.
As if you weren't taught the right way, a person had no hope.

When I talked to my friend she saw it from the perspective of the teacher or parent, and said that after initial faulty training, the teacher /parent wouldn't be able to change them from the outside.. if the child didn't want to change.
She seemed to be thinking of the unruly or wayward child.

But I'm not sure why the passage doesn't factor in that children have a will and choice about what they believe too. They may have different influences from which to choose.
Anyway, I'm understanding it more.

And Tony, yes, I agree with your assessment here..

'It does not mean that the Child has no hope, it just means that the child will more than likely have to face Tests that would not have come there way.'

arthra · 08-08-2012, 09:31 AM

If a child has not had instilled basic trust by the age of three years there is a very high probabilty that you will have developed a sociopathic personality.. It's unfortunate and tragic but it happens...all the more need for the civil authorities and also for Spiritual Assemblies in their jurisdiction to do their best to see this doesn't happen in my view.

08-07-2012, 07:26 PM	#1
Rani Senior Member Joined: May 2011 From: Australia Posts: 445	On the subject of children and parents. Speaking of child-raising and education, I came across this passage a few days ago: A child is as a young plant: it will grow in whatever way you train it. If you rear it to be truthful, and kind, and righteous, it will grow straight, it will be fresh and tender, and will flourish. But if not, then from faulty training it will grow bent, and stand awry, and there will be no hope of changing it. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 286) I find this surprising because from this passage it says that if a child was not raised properly there is no hope of changing them. (?) I would have thought that religion is all about redemption and personal salvation through personal choice. Honestly I find this quote disheartening. I think that children readily make choices about who they respect, admire and who they'd like to emulate. From this quote it might be logical to say that when a person has passed to the next world they will be free to blame their parents for their wrong-doing, because there was no hope in changing themselves, due to faulty upbringing. Are they to be sentenced for something they had no choice about? -That is who their parents are? And that there is no hope for them to lead holy lives? I know that one of my parents actively, I would say, encouraged me to do wrong against my christian sensibilities /princilpes when I was growing up. Does this mean I have no free will or independent character? Albeit, I was a teenager and not a child at the time. Still, as a child, I observed behaviour or manners I did not want to copy. Any thoughts on this topic? Last edited by Rani; 08-07-2012 at 07:52 PM.*

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08-07-2012, 09:17 PM	#2
Essence of GOD Senior Member Joined: Nov 2010 From: EARTH Posts: 334	well, if you think about it, it is kinda true. however ,personally, i would say that there is always hope. if the child wholeheartedly wanted to change that is.

08-07-2012, 10:34 PM	#3
Fadl chief bottle washer Joined: Jun 2011 From: "Here am I, Here am I" Posts: 1,001	To me this means there will be no hope for complete and total change to the ideal first described in the passage. I don't think it means that there is no chance of some improvement or recovery.

08-07-2012, 10:57 PM	#4
tonyfish58 Tony Bristow-Stagg Joined: Sep 2010 From: Tropical North Queensland Australia Posts: 1,556	Rani - With a lot of careful gardening you may remove some of the bend, but the flaw will always be there to some degree. I have witnessed the results of this quote on a personal level. I have witnessed the progress of Children from a strong Baha'i upbringing and have witnessed the progress of Children from a broken Baha'i upbringing. The quote reflects what I have witnessed. IMHO - I find it more of a challenge than disheartening. It does not mean that the Child has no hope, it just means that the child will more than likely have to face Tests that would not have come there way. As a parent this is a challenge to be thoughtful of. Regards Tony

08-07-2012, 11:20 PM	#5
Rani Senior Member Joined: May 2011 From: Australia Posts: 445	From my perspective, justice would expect that we will be judged individually on choices we make regarding whether we follow God, etc. I'm not my parent; I'm an individual soul, and I have not followed my parent's (incorrect) way just because they are my parent. I thought that's what individual investigation of truth is about, and also what detachment is about. -Being detached from the ideas of others whether they be positive or negative. I don't and won't believe that just because my parents are holy, that it makes me holy automatically, and I don't believe the converse either. I think we should be judged solely on the degree that we turn to God individually.

08-07-2012, 11:58 PM	#7
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 2,056	They are impossible to change once matured but once an adult change comes through your own efforts and not others telling you what to do!!

08-08-2012, 02:53 AM	#8
Rani Senior Member Joined: May 2011 From: Australia Posts: 445	It's interesting.. I had a small conversation about this with a local baha'i friend, and I quickly saw that somehow I was looking at it from the perspective of the child. As if you weren't taught the right way, a person had no hope. When I talked to my friend she saw it from the perspective of the teacher or parent, and said that after initial faulty training, the teacher /parent wouldn't be able to change them from the outside.. if the child didn't want to change. She seemed to be thinking of the unruly or wayward child. But I'm not sure why the passage doesn't factor in that children have a will and choice about what they believe too. They may have different influences from which to choose. Anyway, I'm understanding it more. And Tony, yes, I agree with your assessment here.. 'It does not mean that the Child has no hope, it just means that the child will more than likely have to face Tests that would not have come there way.'

08-08-2012, 09:31 AM	#9
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,989	If a child has not had instilled basic trust by the age of three years there is a very high probabilty that you will have developed a sociopathic personality.. It's unfortunate and tragic but it happens...all the more need for the civil authorities and also for Spiritual Assemblies in their jurisdiction to do their best to see this doesn't happen in my view.