Can we end evil?

Fadl · 08-09-2012, 04:00 PM

I watched this episode of Through the Wormhole called "Can we end evil?" on YouTube and thought all of you might be interested!

I think the Baha'is will not be surprised by anything in it, but it is the science behind what our faith has largely already taught us.

Through the Wormhole S3E7 Can We Eliminate Evil? HQ - YouTube

Rani · 08-09-2012, 05:18 PM

Wow, 42 mins long.! I wonder if you can tell us just a little more, as some may hesitate b4 watching something this lengthy. For example, what his particular ideology or faith or background might be, if you know.

And is he taking a positive view?

tonyfish58 · 08-09-2012, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani

Wow, 42 mins long.! I wonder if you can tell us just a little more, as some may hesitate b4 watching something this lengthy. For example, what his particular ideology or faith or background might be, if you know.

And is he taking a positive view?

Im with you Rani - I just have not got the download quota to watch lengthy vidoes

Regards Tony

Fadl · 08-10-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani

Wow, 42 mins long.! I wonder if you can tell us just a little more, as some may hesitate b4 watching something this lengthy. For example, what his particular ideology or faith or background might be, if you know.

And is he taking a positive view?

Through the wormhole season 3 episode 7

"Can We Eliminate Evil?"

18 July 2012

What drives some to torture and kill without remorse? Why do seemingly normal people commit acts of cruelty and violence? From where does evil come? Today, researchers are uncovering the hidden forces that inflame our inner demons ... looking for ways to isolate and neutralize the source of evil in the brain. Is it really possible to change human nature?

source: Through the Wormhole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LordOfGoblins · 08-10-2012, 09:08 PM

ehehehe.
I saw that deleted post..
cracks me up..

tonyfish58 · 08-10-2012, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fadl

Through the wormhole season 3 episode 7

"Can We Eliminate Evil?"

18 July 2012

What drives some to torture and kill without remorse? Why do seemingly normal people commit acts of cruelty and violence? From where does evil come? Today, researchers are uncovering the hidden forces that inflame our inner demons ... looking for ways to isolate and neutralize the source of evil in the brain. Is it really possible to change human nature?

source: Through the Wormhole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes I think you can, but like everything it takes a lot of Effort for the reward.

I think mankind has to replace every bad thought with a good thought as soon as they are aware they are thinking negative.

This takes practice and moderation in our entertainment.

Cheers Tony

He is The One 19 · 08-11-2012, 11:27 AM

In reality there is no such thing as evil, only a lack of good.

Take for instance the concept of "hot" and "cold." What makes something hot or gives it heat is thermal motion or collisions between atoms/molecules that generates heat. Cold is simply the lack of thermal motion.

Just my understanding from the writings and some scientific knowledge....

Iconodule · 08-11-2012, 02:40 PM

Since the bahai religion doesn't seem to teach in contrary nature to the religions before it the end times, or ressurection or day of judgement and instead follows in the tradition of hinduism or Zorastraianism, It seems that under the bahai world view you will always have death and evil, good fighting bad, because there will be and infinite chain of manifestations throughout all of human hsitory and that seems to me to indicate that God will not end evil. He either cannot or will not. UNless i am mistaken.
And by science do you mean the mean the miracles of MOses to the Egyptians or the birth of Christ?

BruceDLimber · 08-12-2012, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Since the bahai religion doesn't seem to teach in contrary nature to the religions before it the end times, or ressurection or day of judgement and instead follows in the tradition of hinduism or Zorastraianism, . . .

IOW, you're TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR with The Book of Certitude and what it explains!

Perhaps you should read it before rushing to make such assertions as the above.

Peace,

Bruce

cire perdue · 08-12-2012, 11:30 AM

That is a Pogo quote. However Baha'is in particular have the capacity to realize that evil is not exclusive to certain people, groups of people, or such. We are all capable of evil, there is probably very few people who have not done something that was evil. Everyone has the potential for evil and good. I think it is essential that as the Universal House of Justice has said that we NOT create false dichotomies.

We have a very unhealthy world out there in which it is possible to be a Baha'i vs that world. We cannot set ourselves apart and must accept others where they are without being pious separatists as current religion does generally in the USA. Evil is a choice, and faith is a process that will result in a healthier and truly healthier lifestyle.

One need only to watch a current movie or go to the mall and check fashion to see where values are currently fixed. They are going to be here for many decades to come. These mores are dense veils that Baha'is know can be countered. However until those values are found to be not workable for life we can only hold our own ground lovingly with wisdom.

In a general atmosphere when faith has true value and meaning great evil can be eliminated, but we remain partly animal in nature and have choices due to that nature. That will not be eliminated and were it so free will would not exist. The evil that men often blame God for is the result of our free will not an action by God.

LordOfGoblins · 08-12-2012, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

, It seems that under the bahai world view you will always have death and evil, good fighting bad, because there will be and infinite chain of manifestations throughout all of human hsitory and that seems to me to indicate that God will not end evil. He either cannot or will not. UNless i am mistaken.

That is actually correct. There will always be messengers sent by God to guide man to the next stage of evolution..

Iconodule · 08-12-2012, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

That is actually correct. There will always be messengers sent by God to guide man to the next stage of evolution..

Hence there will always be evil, always be death. Because since there will always be prophets that will show mankind its errors in contradicting ways each generation, that means there will always be evil.

Iconodule · 08-12-2012, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

IOW, you're TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR with The Book of Certitude and what it explains!

Perhaps you should read it before rushing to make such assertions as the above.

Peace,

Bruce

Please quote it for me. That shows that hte bahai have an assurance of the end of evil, thus there will be no more need for prophets.

LordOfGoblins · 08-12-2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Hence there will always be evil, always be death. Because since there will always be prophets that will show mankind its errors in contradicting ways each generation, that means there will always be evil.

yeh.
Death is a cycle of life. That wont stop. But our souls live on, so its not such a bad thing.
You see if mankind had the ultimate understanding of what each prophet taught there would be no need for the next prophet to come. But man applies his own understanding sometimes which is actually quiet far from what the messenger of God even intended.
THen they persecute him if they see him as a threat to their power or for whatever ever other reason circumstances allow.
Also if you really think about what evil is. Evil is just a creation of the lord God. Like darkness is created by the lord. The devil is just a symbol, but all things proceed from the lord God ultimately..

Iconodule · 08-12-2012, 08:25 PM

Its strange that the bahai world view and Christian world view so radically differ. We agree with the apostle who said Death is the final enemy to be destroyed you seem to agree with his enemies.... That death cannot be overcome.

And you say if Mankind should come to ultimate understanding (which i take it, will not happen in our life time and it will be totally different and contradictory to modern bahai sensibilities,(perhaps teh next manifesation may say abortion and infanticide is good)) yet are are assured of the never ending process of manifesations, that hence there is an infinite regress of manifestations that will always accompany mankind along side of God and they will come everyone 1000 years never stopping.

Am I wrong?

LordOfGoblins · 08-12-2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Its strange that the bahai world view and Christian world view so radically differ. We agree with the apostle who said Death is the final enemy to be destroyed you seem to agree with his enemies.... That death cannot be overcome.

And you say if Mankind should come to ultimate understanding (which i take it, will not happen in our life time and it will be totally different and contradictory to modern bahai sensibilities,(perhaps teh next manifesation may say abortion and infanticide is good)) yet are are assured of the never ending process of manifesations, that hence there is an infinite regress of manifestations that will always accompany mankind along side of God and they will come everyone 1000 years never stopping.

Am I wrong?

I dont get why you would write the second paragraph. Perhaps jesus would indeed return on a physical cloud and approve abortion and infanticide as well?
(not really).
They do the will of God...
Times change. In teh time of Moses he said eye for an eye and Jesus said turn the other cheek. Anyway that is another Huge topic which I dont want to get into.

As to the first paragraph. Actually its in your own scriptures but you choose to turn a blind eye.

Here is from the Bahai writings.

The world of humanity cannot advance through mere physical powers and intellectual attainments; nay, rather, the Holy Spirit is essential. The divine Father must assist the human world to attain maturity. The body of man is in need of physical and mental energy but his spirit requires the life and fortification of the Holy Spirit. Without its protection and quickening the human world would be extinguished. His Holiness Jesus Christ declared, "Let the dead bury their dead." He also said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." It is evident therefore according to His Holiness that the human spirit which is not fortified by the presence of the Holy Spirit is dead and in need of resurrection by that divine power; otherwise though materially advanced to high degrees man cannot attain full and complete progress.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 241)

In other words there are two kinds of dead in the holy writings. One is the literal dead which is the second 'dead' that Jesus said, the other is the symbolic 'dead' which is the first dead that he referenced.
So its there staring at you in the face but you dont take notice of it..

Spiritual death is the ultimate thing to overcome to attain eternal life.
So as Abdul'Baha explains in some answered questions. The stone exists but it is dead when compared to the animal.
The Jewish priests who promoted the death of Jesus exist but in comparison to Peter they are dead...

Iconodule · 08-13-2012, 01:30 AM

Its not at all in our scriptures.... Paul is clear the final enemy to be destroyed is death. He emphasises this saying our bodies must put on incorruption. We must become free of death. But my point in bringing up that second part is that I think it is possible in the bahai world view that a future prophet may promote infanticide as a moral option. We've seen bahai embrace old pagan ideas of teh supremecy of the soul to the body and adopt a liberal view of religious history which expects an ever changing truth leading on for all eternity in which there is no resolve.

But in reading one verse of Christ you have neglected (as Mirza Hussain did constantly along with his desciple) the beauty of the gospels in raising Lazarus a dead man whom Jesus cared for, took the time to go to his body and not merely leave him to rot. This would contradict your entire thesis as would Paul. But you can resolve this, simply say well things change and what was true then is not what was true now, this would be consistent with the bahai position.

LordOfGoblins · 08-13-2012, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Its not at all in our scriptures.... Paul is clear the final enemy to be destroyed is death. He emphasises this saying our bodies must put on incorruption. We must become free of death. But my point in bringing up that second part is that I think it is possible in the bahai world view that a future prophet may promote infanticide as a moral option. We've seen bahai embrace old pagan ideas of teh supremecy of the soul to the body and adopt a liberal view of religious history which expects an ever changing truth leading on for all eternity in which there is no resolve.

But in reading one verse of Christ you have neglected (as Mirza Hussain did constantly along with his desciple) the beauty of the gospels in raising Lazarus a dead man whom Jesus cared for, took the time to go to his body and not merely leave him to rot. This would contradict your entire thesis as would Paul. But you can resolve this, simply say well things change and what was true then is not what was true now, this would be consistent with the bahai position.

You are not really reading or understanding what I am saying now. And really there is no point repeating yourself like a record now is there.
There is nothing that is contradicted in Bahai by the Christian scriptures if you chose symbolic interpretations of the parables. On the other hand if you take literal ones as you have chosen you run into a great deal of trouble.
Eg stars falling to the earth which we have already been over. Another thing you turn a blind eye to. In fact I could write pages of things you turn a blind eye to in your scriptures, however the Bahai doesnt contradict anything.
In fact show me one thing where your understanding has shown the Bahai false?
We already know the bible is often symbolic and you have no way of showing that death is not always symbol because Jesus already used a symbolic death which again you chose to ignore.
Where does Paul make it clear that the conquoring death is the physical body?
Show me.

Why do you keep saying in the future a new prophet may come and promote child killing? It is just a worthless statement equal to me sayinig Jesus would return and could do the same thing in as much as he changed the Sabath day and a couple of other things he contradicted what Moses said (as I have already shown and you choose to ignore).
Dont repeat pointless things over and over it doesnt give weight to what you say.

Iconodule · 08-13-2012, 02:23 AM

It is contradictory. ONe cannot read a text devoid of its historical context and the like. One cannot read the way of the Pilgrim as a Bahai and say the Pilgrim was a loyal and faithful Bahai and believer in Mirza Hussain because the context (17th century russia or 18th, I forget had no Bahai in it). IN that same sense certain texts of the gospels which the bahai insist become literal and metaphorical at the drop of a hat for no real reason other than when it suites them must not be read in such manner. The historic Christian faith, since the apostles, those who knew the apostles and were approved by the apostles has always contradicted the bahai faith. Ignatius was taught by John as was Polycarp and both were in communion despite their long distance away and taught things you would find abomindable such as teh real eucharist presence, the auhtority of the Bishop and so on. I do not blind myself to a scriptures but seek to understand them in the most consisten way possible. Based on the audience it was written to and within the church as these texts were always intended to.

One could go around interpreting anything to their liking. Let me at it and I could make Mirza HUssain an orthodox Christian. Of course I would have to be disenengious, ignore his followers, ignore his historical context, ignore his interactions and many other things but like the the bahai to the Gospels it could be done though it would not be an honest position.

But Im simply saying it is possible in the bahai faith that the next manifestation might reveal that. Are you denying the possibility? After all it was at one point permissable to kill false prophets yet the bahai forbid that and say its immoral. It was at one point permissable to be in government and ahve a state run by judges and kings appointed by God, something the bahai now say is immoral or wrong. Are you saying its impossible for God to make infanticide moral? Your God who has changed the objective rules so much that its a wonder anyone can still believe him?

Corinthians 15:53. The corruptible must put on inccoruption. This verse alone indicates that the corruptible must have a positive change to incorruption. Now the only way I can see Bahai weasling out of it is to say the soul was then corruptible.

LordOfGoblins · 08-13-2012, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

It is contradictory. ONe cannot read a text devoid of its historical context and the like. One cannot read the way of the Pilgrim as a Bahai and say the Pilgrim was a loyal and faithful Bahai and believer in Mirza Hussain because the context (17th century russia or 18th, I forget had no Bahai in it). IN that same sense certain texts of the gospels which the bahai insist become literal and metaphorical at the drop of a hat for no real reason other than when it suites them must not be read in such manner. The historic Christian faith, since the apostles, those who knew the apostles and were approved by the apostles has always contradicted the bahai faith. Ignatius was taught by John as was Polycarp and both were in communion despite their long distance away and taught things you would find abomindable such as teh real eucharist presence, the auhtority of the Bishop and so on. I do not blind myself to a scriptures but seek to understand them in the most consisten way possible. Based on the audience it was written to and within the church as these texts were always intended to.

One could go around interpreting anything to their liking. Let me at it and I could make Mirza HUssain an orthodox Christian. Of course I would have to be disenengious, ignore his followers, ignore his historical context, ignore his interactions and many other things but like the the bahai to the Gospels it could be done though it would not be an honest position.

But Im simply saying it is possible in the bahai faith that the next manifestation might reveal that. Are you denying the possibility? After all it was at one point permissable to kill false prophets yet the bahai forbid that and say its immoral. It was at one point permissable to be in government and ahve a state run by judges and kings appointed by God, something the bahai now say is immoral or wrong. Are you saying its impossible for God to make infanticide moral? Your God who has changed the objective rules so much that its a wonder anyone can still believe him?

Corinthians 15:53. The corruptible must put on inccoruption. This verse alone indicates that the corruptible must have a positive change to incorruption. Now the only way I can see Bahai weasling out of it is to say the soul was then corruptible.

I dont really want to get into the mumbo jumbo of church jargon which i am not familay with (Biships eucharist etc etc). Like I said before If you are willing to stick on one thing instead of jump around these things can easily be resolved.

The Bahai doesnt change from literal to symbolic 'at the drop of a hat' so to speak. In fact when you write it always becomes so obvious that after all this time you still know so little of the faith. For example 'resurrection' Abdul'Baha explains is always a symbolic thing. It is a symbol of bringing what was once dead to life. This is spiritual not physical.
There are other symbols as well like clouds etc. They are symbols.
Now dont tell me your standard is so high and mighty? In fact what is your standard? To go through the bible and read everything literally?
That is a joke. As we already know. In fact so many sects of Christianity were created because of people not agreeing what is symbolic and what is literal. DOnt tell me its all so clear cut because it is not. Many Christians now say the devil is symbolic. So that is clearly showing things are not as rock solid as you try to paint. Likewise the story of Adam and eve and the book of saint John clearly are symbolic to many Christians and dont make sense historically at all if one is to take them literally. Pages no books, could be written how the bible would make absolutely no sense at all should one take all things literally. So another example? Where are your demons today? Your literal demons if they are not symbolic.
Anyway...

No I dont see why you keep bringing up a new prophet might make a law that is evil. It has no meaning. If that prophet is a true one then of course he wont make an evil law as Ive said now for the fourth time, he serves Gods will. Jesus changed Moses law again. THe next prophet may change another law etc.

Corinthians 15:53. The corruptible must put on inccoruption. This verse alone indicates that the corruptible must have a positive change to incorruption. Now the only way I can see Bahai weasling out of it is to say the soul was then corruptible

What are you talking about? Weasel out of what?
You have to explain yourself better here. Are you telling me the verse referes to a corrupt physical body or a corrupt soul?

Iconodule · 08-13-2012, 02:55 AM

When bahai read the gospels they change the narrative to symbollic whenever it is convenient for them. For instance the virgin birth story is apparently literal and then suddenly the entire gospel without any warning by Luke or Mathew becomes symbolic and devoid of objective reality. And yes the bahai do read the New testament in such a way.
Now your ignorance of Christianity is to be expected, but not to be reccomended. The church universally has recognised the Eucharist as real, truely there. The most ancient communions recognise this and you have been shown this before. Consider they also have a clergy with clearly defined authority and roles. This has been the consensus of the church throughout the centuries. Only when we had Sola scriptura did we see splits. As we saw splits and divions in bahai (though you don't want to admit that and only insist they were in error when they say the exact same thing about you). In fact you have bahai that fundamentally dissagree with your very own reflected image of God and they admit it.

Not even the most liberal "Christians" will say they think Jesus was wrong, only that others have misunderstood him and the bible. But you have in your very own group (people which you tolerate) openly saying that the manifesation was wrong, and that he a non manifestation is more wise. Sort out your own house before throwing stones.

LordOfGoblins · 08-13-2012, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

When bahai read the gospels they change the narrative to symbollic whenever it is convenient for them. For instance the virgin birth story is apparently literal and then suddenly the entire gospel without any warning by Luke or Mathew becomes symbolic and devoid of objective reality. And yes the bahai do read the New testament in such a way.
Now your ignorance of Christianity is to be expected, but not to be reccomended. .

As you get more desparete you just talk more hatefully. Firstly Ahanu is not even a Bahai. Secondly I have plauged with health issues for years and so have not had a chance to study the bible as well as I intended. But that doesnt mean Christian traditions have any interest to me. You have been coming here for ages and you probably know far less about the Bahai faith than i do about Christianity.
In any case you talk exactly like someone who is blinded by their own hatred for the faith. Thus you will not even give it a chance to begin with.
So really im probably wasting my time here.

LordOfGoblins · 08-13-2012, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

But you have in your very own group (people which you tolerate) openly saying that the manifesation was wrong, and that he a non manifestation is more wise. Sort out your own house before throwing stones.

It is sorted out. I am trying to see what your standard is to interpret the bible so that we can have a coherant conversation. Rather you just want to attack Bahai by showing so called contradictions . Perhaps why you attempted to bring up the whole child killing thing? A poor attempt to discredit the faith which I answered four times. I am just here to show you that contradictions dont exist in Bahai if you use the Bahai method of symbols which is practical and pervades Christianity anyway. Why is it so far-fetched? Its not far fetched at all ( and especially shouldnt be to someone who is willing to believe in literal demons and literal stars falling to the earth. But I guess that is your 'superior' logic once again preventing you from considering my position).

Iconodule · 08-13-2012, 04:59 PM

Its ironic that you would say I am blinded by my faith when you are so dogmatic in your own, though you don't want to admit it. You want to appear to be the superior one, the pharisee as it were not humble enough to admit when you may be wrong. But notice that I have asked to be corrected on the things I would charge Bahai with. You don't correct me. Ever.

Now the reason why I brought infanticide onto the issue was very simple. It seems to me in bahai the manifestations do not present a moral consistency. What might be evil for one generation will be good for the next generation. This seems to me possible within bahai since you have not said it is impossible. You have not said it is impossible that Infanticide will be accepted by God.

But yes as I see it there is a huge contradiction in the methodology of bahai. You even agreed with me. You said that death will reign supreme. Evil will have its place here for eternity. This confirms to me that at least some bahai follow in the league of the dualists or greek philosophers. And it seems that bahai are perfectly fine with there being logical contradictions and ignoring their prophet. Need we forget Mirza Al hussain said the roman catholic church was right on the immaculate conception which assumes original sin, and the bahai don't agree with this idea despite the very fact your prophet confirmed it.

Bahai don't like to see in the quran the promise that the true Christians would be victorius and that history bears record it was the Nicenes were victorius in the end and there were no other groups that matched the beliefs of either muslims or bahai, though the religions are two totally different entities. The former based on the ethics of a man I might question to exist but even so the information historically we have of him is disgusting, despite the fact you reject it when it is the only plausible way to justify the quran which without that history is just a book that appeared out of nowhere and cannot possibly be understood.

I think I understand the bahai position quite well on certain subjects. Though IM no expert I will admit first and foremost. But that won't stop me from finding perceived holes in it. As it won't stop you from making flawed attacks against Christianity. You act as if the existence of many churches somehow discredits Christianity. Yet Islam went through this very early on in its existence and you have to maintain for 1400 years islam was the true religion. Which was the right sect? Christianity was the true religion, that is the religion of the Orthodox/Catholic church for 600 years (as must be neccessarily accepted based on the quran and the statements of Mirza Al HUssain on the matter.

But in bahai I will submit that there is no end to evil. Even you confirmed this. There will always be death and evil because there will always be manifestations. Or was Mirza Al hussain wrong about there always being manifestations?

I will put my faith in the prophets and the church. And what the Prophet Daniel said in his own words.

But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who stands for the children of your people: and a time shall come, such as never was from the time that nations began, even until that time. And at that time shall your people be saved, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always. 3 But they that are learned, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all eternity. 4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.

This is what I believe. I cannot believe a Good god would create a world with evil in it, fully expecting that death should reign of man. A God that would allow this to happen forever. Such a God is a deistic God who cares little for us, such a God goes against the God of the church.

"God became man so that we might become god"

AS the church which was true before muhammad said all throughout its history.

InvestigateTruth · 08-13-2012, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

It seems to me in bahai the manifestations do not present a moral consistency. What might be evil for one generation will be good for the next generation.

It is interesting that you, as a Christian forgot How, God in Old Testament gave certain Rules to Jews, but later Jesus changed many of them.

ahanu · 08-13-2012, 06:23 PM

Wow! That part about Charles Whitman was mad interesting. Who writes a note just before a mass shooting telling somebody to perform an autopsy on his or her brain?

LordOfGoblins · 08-13-2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Its ironic that you would say I am blinded by my faith when you are so dogmatic in your own, though you don't want to admit it. You want to appear to be the superior one, the pharisee as it were not humble enough to admit when you may be wrong. But notice that I have asked to be corrected on the things I would charge Bahai with. You don't correct me. Ever.

Now the reason why I brought infanticide onto the issue was very simple. It seems to me in bahai the manifestations do not present a moral consistency. What might be evil for one generation will be good for the next generation. This seems to me possible within bahai since you have not said it is impossible. You have not said it is impossible that Infanticide will be accepted by God.

But yes as I see it there is a huge contradiction in the methodology of bahai. You even agreed with me. You said that death will reign supreme. Evil will have its place here for eternity. This confirms to me that at least some bahai follow in the league of the dualists or greek philosophers. And it seems that bahai are perfectly fine with there being logical contradictions and ignoring their prophet. Need we forget Mirza Al hussain said the roman catholic church was right on the immaculate conception which assumes original sin, and the bahai don't agree with this idea despite the very fact your prophet confirmed it.

Bahai don't like to see in the quran the promise that the true Christians would be victorius and that history bears record it was the Nicenes were victorius in the end and there were no other groups that matched the beliefs of either muslims or bahai, though the religions are two totally different entities. The former based on the ethics of a man I might question to exist but even so the information historically we have of him is disgusting, despite the fact you reject it when it is the only plausible way to justify the quran which without that history is just a book that appeared out of nowhere and cannot possibly be understood.

I think I understand the bahai position quite well on certain subjects. Though IM no expert I will admit first and foremost. But that won't stop me from finding perceived holes in it. As it won't stop you from making flawed attacks against Christianity. You act as if the existence of many churches somehow discredits Christianity. Yet Islam went through this very early on in its existence and you have to maintain for 1400 years islam was the true religion. Which was the right sect? Christianity was the true religion, that is the religion of the Orthodox/Catholic church for 600 years (as must be neccessarily accepted based on the quran and the statements of Mirza Al HUssain on the matter.

But in bahai I will submit that there is no end to evil. Even you confirmed this. There will always be death and evil because there will always be manifestations. Or was Mirza Al hussain wrong about there always being manifestations?

I will put my faith in the prophets and the church. And what the Prophet Daniel said in his own words.

But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who stands for the children of your people: and a time shall come, such as never was from the time that nations began, even until that time. And at that time shall your people be saved, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always. 3 But they that are learned, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all eternity. 4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.

This is what I believe. I cannot believe a Good god would create a world with evil in it, fully expecting that death should reign of man. A God that would allow this to happen forever. Such a God is a deistic God who cares little for us, such a God goes against the God of the church.

"God became man so that we might become god"

AS the church which was true before muhammad said all throughout its history.

Well you can always also accuse me of being the Queen of England.
I said you were blinded by hatred. I on the other hand am not blinded by hatred for Orthodoxy. You previously claimed you were here to 'contrast' the Bahai faith with your own. Frankly that is a load of bull. All you have done since you got here was to try and create and find so called 'contradictions' and flaws and 'watch the Bahais struggle' to defend their faith. Yet even after all this time there is not one single point which you can repeadedly return to to show where this so-called flaw exists. Surely if you found a solid flaw like you claim you could stick to that point until the Bahais admit it is a flaw. I think we are reasonable enough people to admit have a discussion on what might appear as a flaw. Yet this is not the case. So as a result you create a tactic of painting yourself as one who is consumed by malcontent and you jump around from topic to topic slipping in little attacks on Muhammad and on the faith as you do so.
In any case oh yes you understand the Bahai position. You cant even get Baha'u'llahs name right.
His name is Mirza Husayn Ali, not Mirza Al Husayn. There I just 'corrected you'?
Anyway I think im done...

ahanu · 08-13-2012, 06:34 PM

I loved "the craving bar." Hook a drug addict to a MRI machine. Have them look at images of cocaine use. Measure that craving with a craving bar that measures his brain waves so that he can visually see his craving. The craving can move from through a spectrum of colors, ranging from blue (low) to red (high). Fighting the urge to use drugs moves the bar to the blue range.

I think that, if we could hook a device like this up to our wrists and wear it like a watch, we would better monitor our behaviors. This biofeedback will help train the brain to eliminate evil!

LordOfGoblins · 08-13-2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Now the reason why I brought infanticide onto the issue was very simple. It seems to me in bahai the manifestations do not present a moral consistency. What might be evil for one generation will be good for the next generation. This seems to me possible within bahai since you have not said it is impossible. You have not said it is impossible that Infanticide will be accepted by God.

I think I understand the bahai position quite well on certain subjects. Though IM no expert I will admit first and foremost. But that won't stop me from finding perceived holes in it. As it won't stop you from making flawed attacks against Christianity. You act as if the existence of many churches somehow discredits Christianity. Yet Islam went through this very early on in its existence and you have to maintain for 1400 years islam was the true religion. Which was the right sect? Christianity was the true religion, that is the religion of the Orthodox/Catholic church for 600 years (as must be neccessarily accepted based on the quran and the statements of Mirza Al HUssain on the matter.

.

You are not even talking to me now, you are talking to a projected image onto which is not how I am representing myself. For example i am not attacking and picking flaws in Christianity. Christianity is the true religion of God which you know the Bahais acknowledge. All I am doing is pointing out how your understandings do not hold water when you try to accuse the faith of being illogical.
So for example if you accuse the faith of changing in truth or not having a hard and fast truth, I likewise can show you that Christianity is full of people who have different understandings of truth.
That is not an 'attack' on Christianity though I know you would like to bring me to the level which you are on which is just being a mudslinger.

I have answered the baby killing accusation four times now. Get over it...

Iconodule · 08-13-2012, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

It is interesting that you, as a Christian forgot How, God in Old Testament gave certain Rules to Jews, but later Jesus changed many of them.

Its interesting that the concept of the old and new covenant is substantially different from what the bahais have. That is it isnt just the social teachings that change it is the theological teachings that change each generation. For instance the true Christians (as must be understood by the words of the quran and Mirza Al Hussain) believed Jesus was the creator of everything that was made as John Says in his Gospel. Muslims did not. No the new covenant was promised to Israel and it would not be like the one which he had with Moses. It was basically the moral component of the Old law made manifest, that it was the inward position which mattered most of all and you cannot have ritual without that inward position. And this covenant continues on today with the Christians as the quran testifies. Because the Christians will remain victorius to the day of judgement. ANd you as a bahai must accept that statement from the quran.

And thats where we differ. I do not have to abstain from pork. I have to take part in the Eucharist which again to the bahai was the real presence of Christ for 600 years.

LordOfGoblins · 08-13-2012, 08:38 PM

So Iconodule.
As far as that little exchange we had. How do you think you went? Remember Your position is the Bahai faith is full of flaws and That your belief is rock solid.
How did the exchange go in your view? Did you succeed in proving the Bahai faith is full of flaws and destroying my arguments (me being a Bahai trying to represent the Bahai view in my limited way)?

tonyfish58 · 08-13-2012, 11:57 PM

This Tread Hijacked

Back to the Topic re "Can we end evil?

Positive thinking is the key I would say

Abdul'Baha said "I charge you all that each one of you concentrate all the thoughts of your heart on love and unity. When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace. A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love. Thoughts of war bring destruction to all harmony, well-being, restfulness and content.
Thoughts of love are constructive of brotherhood, peace, friendship, and happiness." Paris Talks October 21st.

Regards Tony

BruceDLimber · 08-14-2012, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce

IOW, you're TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR with The Book of Certitude and what it explains!

Perhaps you should read it before rushing to make such assertions as the above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Please quote [The Book of Certitude] for me. That shows that hte [sic] bahai have an assurance of the end of evil, thus there will be no more need for prophets.

That's not what I addressed: You spoke of the end times and the day of judgement--apparently not being aware of what our scriptures say about these; hence my statement.

And the book is around 256 pages, so I'm not in a position to quote it to you.

You can find it yourself here:

Bahá'í Library Online (click "Writings")
http://www.reference.bahahi.org (this site is multilingual)

(BTW, the title may say Kitab-i-Iqan instead.)

Peace,

Bruce

Timothy248 · 09-13-2012, 01:37 PM

Although I believe earth will eventually enter a golden age, in which all evil is repressed, for how long it lasts I'm not sure. Evil itself has to at least have the potential to exist because without it good cannot exist.
For example their cannot be peace without the potential for war, because then peace would have no significance.

08-11-2012, 02:40 PM	#8
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Since the bahai religion doesn't seem to teach in contrary nature to the religions before it the end times, or ressurection or day of judgement and instead follows in the tradition of hinduism or Zorastraianism, It seems that under the bahai world view you will always have death and evil, good fighting bad, because there will be and infinite chain of manifestations throughout all of human hsitory and that seems to me to indicate that God will not end evil. He either cannot or will not. UNless i am mistaken. And by science do you mean the mean the miracles of MOses to the Egyptians or the birth of Christ? Last edited by Iconodule; 08-11-2012 at 02:51 PM.

08-12-2012, 11:30 AM	#10
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,725	"We have seen the enemy, and it is us." That is a Pogo quote. However Baha'is in particular have the capacity to realize that evil is not exclusive to certain people, groups of people, or such. We are all capable of evil, there is probably very few people who have not done something that was evil. Everyone has the potential for evil and good. I think it is essential that as the Universal House of Justice has said that we NOT create false dichotomies. We have a very unhealthy world out there in which it is possible to be a Baha'i vs that world. We cannot set ourselves apart and must accept others where they are without being pious separatists as current religion does generally in the USA. Evil is a choice, and faith is a process that will result in a healthier and truly healthier lifestyle. One need only to watch a current movie or go to the mall and check fashion to see where values are currently fixed. They are going to be here for many decades to come. These mores are dense veils that Baha'is know can be countered. However until those values are found to be not workable for life we can only hold our own ground lovingly with wisdom. In a general atmosphere when faith has true value and meaning great evil can be eliminated, but we remain partly animal in nature and have choices due to that nature. That will not be eliminated and were it so free will would not exist. The evil that men often blame God for is the result of our free will not an action by God.

08-13-2012, 06:34 PM	#28
ahanu Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: Beijing, China Posts: 592	I loved "the craving bar." Hook a drug addict to a MRI machine. Have them look at images of cocaine use. Measure that craving with a craving bar that measures his brain waves so that he can visually see his craving. The craving can move from through a spectrum of colors, ranging from blue (low) to red (high). Fighting the urge to use drugs moves the bar to the blue range. I think that, if we could hook a device like this up to our wrists and wear it like a watch, we would better monitor our behaviors. This biofeedback will help train the brain to eliminate evil! Last edited by ahanu; 08-13-2012 at 06:37 PM.

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08-09-2012, 05:18 PM	#2
Rani Senior Member Joined: May 2011 From: Australia Posts: 444	Wow, 42 mins long.! I wonder if you can tell us just a little more, as some may hesitate b4 watching something this lengthy. For example, what his particular ideology or faith or background might be, if you know. And is he taking a positive view?

08-10-2012, 09:08 PM	#5
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 2,056	ehehehe. I saw that deleted post.. cracks me up..

08-11-2012, 11:27 AM	#7
He is The One 19 Junior Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: united states Posts: 25	In reality there is no such thing as evil, only a lack of good. Take for instance the concept of "hot" and "cold." What makes something hot or gives it heat is thermal motion or collisions between atoms/molecules that generates heat. Cold is simply the lack of thermal motion. Just my understanding from the writings and some scientific knowledge....

08-12-2012, 08:25 PM	#15
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Its strange that the bahai world view and Christian world view so radically differ. We agree with the apostle who said Death is the final enemy to be destroyed you seem to agree with his enemies.... That death cannot be overcome. And you say if Mankind should come to ultimate understanding (which i take it, will not happen in our life time and it will be totally different and contradictory to modern bahai sensibilities,(perhaps teh next manifesation may say abortion and infanticide is good)) yet are are assured of the never ending process of manifesations, that hence there is an infinite regress of manifestations that will always accompany mankind along side of God and they will come everyone 1000 years never stopping. Am I wrong?

08-13-2012, 01:30 AM	#17
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Its not at all in our scriptures.... Paul is clear the final enemy to be destroyed is death. He emphasises this saying our bodies must put on incorruption. We must become free of death. But my point in bringing up that second part is that I think it is possible in the bahai world view that a future prophet may promote infanticide as a moral option. We've seen bahai embrace old pagan ideas of teh supremecy of the soul to the body and adopt a liberal view of religious history which expects an ever changing truth leading on for all eternity in which there is no resolve. But in reading one verse of Christ you have neglected (as Mirza Hussain did constantly along with his desciple) the beauty of the gospels in raising Lazarus a dead man whom Jesus cared for, took the time to go to his body and not merely leave him to rot. This would contradict your entire thesis as would Paul. But you can resolve this, simply say well things change and what was true then is not what was true now, this would be consistent with the bahai position.

08-13-2012, 02:23 AM	#19
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	It is contradictory. ONe cannot read a text devoid of its historical context and the like. One cannot read the way of the Pilgrim as a Bahai and say the Pilgrim was a loyal and faithful Bahai and believer in Mirza Hussain because the context (17th century russia or 18th, I forget had no Bahai in it). IN that same sense certain texts of the gospels which the bahai insist become literal and metaphorical at the drop of a hat for no real reason other than when it suites them must not be read in such manner. The historic Christian faith, since the apostles, those who knew the apostles and were approved by the apostles has always contradicted the bahai faith. Ignatius was taught by John as was Polycarp and both were in communion despite their long distance away and taught things you would find abomindable such as teh real eucharist presence, the auhtority of the Bishop and so on. I do not blind myself to a scriptures but seek to understand them in the most consisten way possible. Based on the audience it was written to and within the church as these texts were always intended to. One could go around interpreting anything to their liking. Let me at it and I could make Mirza HUssain an orthodox Christian. Of course I would have to be disenengious, ignore his followers, ignore his historical context, ignore his interactions and many other things but like the the bahai to the Gospels it could be done though it would not be an honest position. But Im simply saying it is possible in the bahai faith that the next manifestation might reveal that. Are you denying the possibility? After all it was at one point permissable to kill false prophets yet the bahai forbid that and say its immoral. It was at one point permissable to be in government and ahve a state run by judges and kings appointed by God, something the bahai now say is immoral or wrong. Are you saying its impossible for God to make infanticide moral? Your God who has changed the objective rules so much that its a wonder anyone can still believe him? Corinthians 15:53. The corruptible must put on inccoruption. This verse alone indicates that the corruptible must have a positive change to incorruption. Now the only way I can see Bahai weasling out of it is to say the soul was then corruptible.

08-13-2012, 02:55 AM	#21
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	When bahai read the gospels they change the narrative to symbollic whenever it is convenient for them. For instance the virgin birth story is apparently literal and then suddenly the entire gospel without any warning by Luke or Mathew becomes symbolic and devoid of objective reality. And yes the bahai do read the New testament in such a way. Now your ignorance of Christianity is to be expected, but not to be reccomended. The church universally has recognised the Eucharist as real, truely there. The most ancient communions recognise this and you have been shown this before. Consider they also have a clergy with clearly defined authority and roles. This has been the consensus of the church throughout the centuries. Only when we had Sola scriptura did we see splits. As we saw splits and divions in bahai (though you don't want to admit that and only insist they were in error when they say the exact same thing about you). In fact you have bahai that fundamentally dissagree with your very own reflected image of God and they admit it. Not even the most liberal "Christians" will say they think Jesus was wrong, only that others have misunderstood him and the bible. But you have in your very own group (people which you tolerate) openly saying that the manifesation was wrong, and that he a non manifestation is more wise. Sort out your own house before throwing stones.

08-13-2012, 04:59 PM	#24
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Its ironic that you would say I am blinded by my faith when you are so dogmatic in your own, though you don't want to admit it. You want to appear to be the superior one, the pharisee as it were not humble enough to admit when you may be wrong. But notice that I have asked to be corrected on the things I would charge Bahai with. You don't correct me. Ever. Now the reason why I brought infanticide onto the issue was very simple. It seems to me in bahai the manifestations do not present a moral consistency. What might be evil for one generation will be good for the next generation. This seems to me possible within bahai since you have not said it is impossible. You have not said it is impossible that Infanticide will be accepted by God. But yes as I see it there is a huge contradiction in the methodology of bahai. You even agreed with me. You said that death will reign supreme. Evil will have its place here for eternity. This confirms to me that at least some bahai follow in the league of the dualists or greek philosophers. And it seems that bahai are perfectly fine with there being logical contradictions and ignoring their prophet. Need we forget Mirza Al hussain said the roman catholic church was right on the immaculate conception which assumes original sin, and the bahai don't agree with this idea despite the very fact your prophet confirmed it. Bahai don't like to see in the quran the promise that the true Christians would be victorius and that history bears record it was the Nicenes were victorius in the end and there were no other groups that matched the beliefs of either muslims or bahai, though the religions are two totally different entities. The former based on the ethics of a man I might question to exist but even so the information historically we have of him is disgusting, despite the fact you reject it when it is the only plausible way to justify the quran which without that history is just a book that appeared out of nowhere and cannot possibly be understood. I think I understand the bahai position quite well on certain subjects. Though IM no expert I will admit first and foremost. But that won't stop me from finding perceived holes in it. As it won't stop you from making flawed attacks against Christianity. You act as if the existence of many churches somehow discredits Christianity. Yet Islam went through this very early on in its existence and you have to maintain for 1400 years islam was the true religion. Which was the right sect? Christianity was the true religion, that is the religion of the Orthodox/Catholic church for 600 years (as must be neccessarily accepted based on the quran and the statements of Mirza Al HUssain on the matter. But in bahai I will submit that there is no end to evil. Even you confirmed this. There will always be death and evil because there will always be manifestations. Or was Mirza Al hussain wrong about there always being manifestations? I will put my faith in the prophets and the church. And what the Prophet Daniel said in his own words. But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who stands for the children of your people: and a time shall come, such as never was from the time that nations began, even until that time. And at that time shall your people be saved, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always. 3 But they that are learned, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all eternity. 4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold. This is what I believe. I cannot believe a Good god would create a world with evil in it, fully expecting that death should reign of man. A God that would allow this to happen forever. Such a God is a deistic God who cares little for us, such a God goes against the God of the church. "God became man so that we might become god" AS the church which was true before muhammad said all throughout its history.

08-13-2012, 06:23 PM	#26
ahanu Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: Beijing, China Posts: 592	Wow! That part about Charles Whitman was mad interesting. Who writes a note just before a mass shooting telling somebody to perform an autopsy on his or her brain?

08-13-2012, 08:38 PM	#31
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 2,056	So Iconodule. As far as that little exchange we had. How do you think you went? Remember Your position is the Bahai faith is full of flaws and That your belief is rock solid. How did the exchange go in your view? Did you succeed in proving the Bahai faith is full of flaws and destroying my arguments (me being a Bahai trying to represent the Bahai view in my limited way)?

08-13-2012, 11:57 PM	#32
tonyfish58 Tony Bristow-Stagg Joined: Sep 2010 From: Tropical North Queensland Australia Posts: 1,556	This Tread Hijacked Back to the Topic re "Can we end evil? Positive thinking is the key I would say Abdul'Baha said "I charge you all that each one of you concentrate all the thoughts of your heart on love and unity. When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace. A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love. Thoughts of war bring destruction to all harmony, well-being, restfulness and content. Thoughts of love are constructive of brotherhood, peace, friendship, and happiness." Paris Talks October 21st. Regards Tony

09-13-2012, 01:37 PM	#34
Timothy248 Senior Member Joined: Sep 2012 From: New Zealand Posts: 100	Although I believe earth will eventually enter a golden age, in which all evil is repressed, for how long it lasts I'm not sure. Evil itself has to at least have the potential to exist because without it good cannot exist. For example their cannot be peace without the potential for war, because then peace would have no significance.