Baha'i views on gays - Page 3

BruceDLimber · 09-16-2012, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Mirza Al hussain is not God.

1. We never claimed He is!

2. You can't even get His name right. Doing so would doubtless require all of 90 seconds' worth of study.

We are not amused.

Bruce

AdrianDavila · 09-16-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

1. We never claimed He is!

2. You can't even get His name right. Doing so would doubtless require all of 90 seconds' worth of study.

We are not amused.

Bruce

Thank you for this. I don't know where anyone would think that we would believe that Baha'u'llah was in any way God.

Icon, Baha'u'llah taught the absolute oneness of God. So, for us to believe that Baha'u'llah was God would be to completely disregard his teachings and thus to not be Baha'is.

tonyfish58 · 09-16-2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

To fundamentally dismantle the teachings of a madman or even someone as arrogant as Mirza AL Hussain so that no one would take him seriously would require that much time I believe. Then probably another year to write the book. For Christianity I would submit but a lifetime of study. But simply because it takes a long time to dismantle something doesn't mean it is right. Mirza Al Hussain had no idea of Christian doctrines, history or anything of the like that much shows in the limited amount of reading of his writings.

It takes time to undo alot of damage, surgery if it were, to mend all the wounds and even then there will be complications and a persistant threat.

But no, if you insist that all religion is from the same source you have to deny the quran which claims Christians are blasphemers. We are loathed to God, he literally hates us and condemns for committing shirk and lets not be dishonest, Christians since the apostles have always committed shirk. No, your God is not my God. Mirza Al hussain is not God.

I will sum this up by repeating "May I suggest you read the Book of Certitude (The Kitáb-i-Íqán) This is the book you could start with, the book that proves all religion is from the same source - Link - Baha'i Reference Library: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

If after this study of this one book which does not take a long time to read, you draw the same conclusion. Then please post as to why.

Until then - Regards Tony

armin · 09-16-2012, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdrianDavila

Thank you for this. I don't know where anyone would think that we would believe that Baha'u'llah was in any way God.

Icon, Baha'u'llah taught the absolute oneness of God. So, for us to believe that Baha'u'llah was God would be to completely disregard his teachings and thus to not be Baha'is.

God's chosen Ones have a twofold station. They are the exponents of God's attributes. Hence, from the vantage point of the peoples of the world They are God Himself.

AdrianDavila · 09-16-2012, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armin

God's chosen Ones have a twofold station. They are the exponents of God's attributes. Hence, from the vantage point of the peoples of the world They are God Himself.

Right, this I understand, but thank you. It is a difficult concept to grasp, and I'm still very new in the Faith.

Iconodule · 09-21-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyfish58

I will sum this up by repeating "May I suggest you read the Book of Certitude (The Kitáb-i-Íqán) This is the book you could start with, the book that proves all religion is from the same source - Link - Baha'i Reference Library: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

If after this study of this one book which does not take a long time to read, you draw the same conclusion. Then please post as to why.

Until then - Regards Tony

I doubt anyone can prove a logical contradiction true, no matter how hard they try. Needless to say your faith is not my faith, my faith is in Christ and his church and they cannot be of the same source.

Pete in Panama · 09-22-2012, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danieldemol

...the Baha'i holy writings state that monogamous gay relationships are not moral...

If you've got a link/quote to that exact wording then please share. I can find links/quotes that show where Baha'i law both forbids Baha'is forming polygamous marriages, and requires members of polygamous marriages to continue in them after becoming Baha'is. The same may apply to spouses of homosexual marriages that enroll, although before making a specific ruling I'd imagine the House looking like...

BruceDLimber · 09-22-2012, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Needless to say [the Baha'i Faith] is not my faith; my faith is in Christ and his church, and they cannot be of the same source.

Only in your somewhat biased viewpoint.

We have no trouble whatever reconciling them, thankyouverymuch! :-)

Bruce

Pete in Panama · 09-22-2012, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...your faith is not my faith, my faith is in Christ...

...Only in your somewhat biased viewpoint. We have no trouble whatever reconciling them...

huh.

I'd have thought that everyone's mind is 'somewhat biased', and I like to go to all sorts of trouble to reconcile differing faiths. How about we all stop for a second, agree that Christ is the only Son of God, that the Bible is the Word, and we all go together from there?

BruceDLimber · 09-22-2012, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

How about we all stop for a second, agree that Christ is the only Son of God, that the Bible is the Word, and we all go together from there?

Christ is the Son of God as a title, not literally!

The Bible is legitimate, God-sent scripture and hence the Word of God, as are the Qur'an, the 200 volumes of Baha'i scripture, and many other books in the various other religions.

So let's all go together from here. :-)

Peace,

Bruce

Iconodule · 09-22-2012, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Only in your somewhat biased viewpoint.

We have no trouble whatever reconciling them, thankyouverymuch! :-)

Bruce

well if you want to prove our faith is from the same source can you recognise that Jesus Christ created you? Can you recognise the Nicean creed and confess it?

Pete in Panama · 09-22-2012, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...you recognise the Nicean creed and confess it?

Sure, and for the moment let's ponder together the part in the third paragraph--

Quote:

...He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

--and ask ourselves what our love of the Christ should have us do here?

Iconodule · 09-22-2012, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

Sure, and for the moment let's ponder together the part in the third paragraph----and ask ourselves what our love of the Christ should have us do here?

By not truely believing it, i think you've proven our religions are not of the same source. Do you consider Jesus Christ the creator of everything that began to exist?

Pete in Panama · 09-22-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...you recognise the Nicean creed and confess it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

Sure, and...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

By not truely believing it...

Wait a sec, we're talking about---

Quote:

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

--and I said it was a creed we could all join together on, and you're saying you don't agree? That can't be right. I'm all turned around here; please help me out and say if you're on board with the NC or not.

Pete in Panama · 09-22-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Christ is the Son of God as a title, not literally! . The Bible is legitimate, God-sent scripture and hence the Word of God, as are the Qur'an, the 200 volumes of Baha'i scripture, and many other books in the various other religions. So let's all go together from here.

That's well said, but let's go with page 109 of Promise Day has Come:

Quote:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

fwiw, this site has lots of good stuff.

tonyfish58 · 09-22-2012, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

That's well said, but let's go with page 109 of Promise Day has Come:
fwiw, this site has lots of good stuff.

Thanks for the Link Pete in Panama

I will look at that in the up coming days!

I think the issue is in this thread, (as well as the many other 100's that have posts by Iconodule) when discussing Faith with Iconodule is that, well its long past the time when the Topic has gone beyond discussion and he should be left to ponder the answers.

It has been stated many times in many threads to Iconodule that we share a belief in Christ and that we should look to what unites and not what divides. Iconodule does not want this to happen. So I leave it to you if you want to give it a go, many have tried

Regards Tony

Pete in Panama · 09-22-2012, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyfish58

...Thanks for the Link ...

I LOVE that link! I printed out the pdf and keep the file handy for copying/pasting on these threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyfish58

...been stated many times in many threads to Iconodule that we share a belief in Christ...

tx fer sharing Tony, and I'll try to learn from other's experience.

I can also see Icon's skepticism as there are so many we meet that 'say' the accept the Christ as Lord and turn right around and fink out. Then again, flaking off w/ Christ is like smoking. People who say they have such a hard time quitting eventually succeed in quitting, even if quitting's the last thing they ever do...

Iconodule · 09-22-2012, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

Wait a sec, we're talking about-----and I said it was a creed we could all join together on, and you're saying you don't agree? That can't be right. I'm all turned around here; please help me out and say if you're on board with the NC or not.

You do understand what the creed says right? That it says Christ has the exact same substance, or essence of the father? That this makes Christ the eternal this creed and you say the bahai can confess it? Or are you not bahai?

Iconodule · 09-22-2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyfish58

It has been stated many times in many threads to Iconodule that we share a belief in Christ and that we should look to what unites and not what divides. Iconodule does not want this to happen. So I leave it to you if you want to give it a go, many have tried

Regards Tony

The problem is tony is that bahai often hate people who debate or try to challange and try to guilt trip them like you do to anyone who would dare challange you as if they were the bad guy. This is typical attitude of cults who refuse questioning or any indepth analysis and insist on only saying what we believe and having a fun old goofy time. But if you want to ignore what fundametanlly divides Christians and bahais (not that we were ever united or that you were ever apart of Christ) and not challange those doctrines you would have to say as per the quran are abominations and essentially leave Christians as the worst of all creatures (shirk). Then I suggest you are not following your highest authority.

LordOfGoblins · 09-22-2012, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

The problem is tony is that bahai often hate people who debate or try to challange and try to guilt trip them like you do to anyone who would dare challange you as if they were the bad guy. .

All your accusations against the Bahais and tactics and shew shew tactics which you used to say here was because Bahais wanted you to leave because you are just a pain in the ass!!
Simple!
There is no tactic of trying to guilt people. Its just that if someone is a pain in the ass then that is just who they are!!
You have made yourself into this by the untrue things you say like the above statement and endless righteous knee slapping, trolling and trying to derail threads.

Iconodule · 09-22-2012, 07:32 PM

There is that tactic clearly present, bahai do not like challanges, especially critical challanges and they try to guilt trip the people who challange them in many ways. But lord would you ever confess the Nicene creed?

LordOfGoblins · 09-22-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

There is that tactic clearly present, bahai do not like challanges, especially critical challanges and they try to guilt trip the people who challange them in many ways. But lord would you ever confess the Nicene creed?

oh really.
I accept your challange.
Start a new thread or admit you are a troll.

Iconodule · 09-22-2012, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

oh really.
I accept your challange.
Start a new thread or admit you are a troll.

A troll doesn't believe in what they say. I truely believe that all religions are of different sources as can be demonstrably shown via their contradictions. I'm not an idealist who wants the world to be united, or thinks the world can be united despite contradicting ideas.

But to respond to a poster in the thread who brought it up, would you confess the Nicene creed to show that all religions are of the same source as per bahai doctrine? Or would you be consistent and honest with what Mirza Husayn taught and deny the nicene creed as an abomination and insult to Christ?

LordOfGoblins · 09-22-2012, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

A troll doesn't believe in what they say. I truely believe that all religions are of different sources as can be demonstrably shown via their contradictions. I'm not an idealist who wants the world to be united, or thinks the world can be united despite contradicting ideas.

But to respond to a poster in the thread who brought it up, would you confess the Nicene creed to show that all religions are of the same source as per bahai doctrine? Or would you be consistent and honest with what Mirza Husayn taught and deny the nicene creed as an abomination and insult to Christ?

IT iS OFFTOPIC FOR THIS THREAD

If you want to prove Bahai is false and you consistantly accuse the Bahais of such things like not willing to debate etc then you have to back up what you say by creating a new thread instead of spamming malcontent across the forum.
Simple. End of story..

Iconodule · 09-22-2012, 10:50 PM

Im not the one who distorted the topic, if the moderators want to close it, then let them.

ahanu · 09-22-2012, 10:51 PM

Iconodule writes:

Quote:

But to respond to a poster in the thread who brought it up, would you confess the Nicene creed to show that all religions are of the same source as per bahai doctrine?

No. Why? Does the Nicene Creed come from the pens of the first apostles of Christ or Christ himself? No.

By the way, do you think people choose to be gay or straight? I asked you earlier, but I never received a response.

Iconodule · 09-22-2012, 10:57 PM

No ahanu, it does not, but it does come from the church which is the body of Christ. And for Christians the body of Christ is not distinct from Christ himself, and though the body might fail, Christ's fealty and love for the body in terms of protecting from false doctrine does not.

But your resistance to the creed shows in of itself a contradiction between our two faiths. Yours some sort of varient form of baahi that would deny the absolute infalliblity of the manifestations which existed before you and likely saw the very life of Jesus as it played out, and mine the Christian orthodox faith.

ahanu · 09-23-2012, 12:11 AM

Okay. So, in your view, do people choose to be gay or straight?

Iconodule · 09-23-2012, 12:43 AM

Choose? As in actively pick which gender they will be attracted to, no I don't think people choose it.

Pete in Panama · 09-23-2012, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...Christ has the exact same substance, or essence of the father? That this makes Christ the eternal...

Thanks for clarifying, and that was a good way of saying it as based on...

Quote:

Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

--which in turn comes from--

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Since we both go with The Nicene Creed, could you also please share your take on--

Quote:

He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

Pete in Panama · 09-23-2012, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

... Bahais wanted you to leave because you are just a pain in the ass!! ...

LOL!!! --bringing to my mind a story from Hand W. Sears mentioning "that warm Baha'i love that wins the hearts of millions..."

OK, I'm the new kid on the block and haven't had to put up things you have, but please let's don't kick out Icon.

Pete in Panama · 09-23-2012, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Choose? As in actively pick which gender they will be attracted to, no I don't think people choose it.

Actually, they can, they do, and they can later on change their choice if they really want but because it's so extremely difficult and most don't...

--but hey, the only one here who's got a problem with thoughts is the one doing the thinking. The rest of us can talk about actions.

Iconodule · 09-23-2012, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

Since we both go with The Nicene Creed, could you also please share your take on--

I'm glad you consider Christ God with the father and the son and the spirit and give the Holy trinity praise due only unto God then.

The phrase indicates the coming and return of Jesus Christ, that is the literal coming and return of the Christ of Israel, not a pretender like Mirza Husayn. within the context of the church this is the only interpretation of the creed which makes sense and read any other meaning on to it, is to try and read the quran and say it doesn't call Christian's blasphemers and the worst of all creatures.

Pete in Panama · 09-23-2012, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...the literal coming and return of the Christ of Israel, not a pretender like Mirza Husayn...

Good Morning, nice to see I'm not the only one up early!

There are reasons for saying Mirza Husayn `Ali Nuri isn't the Messiah, the idea is to toss out those reasons that some people also use to 'prove' Jesus wasn't the Messiah either. Telling a Jew about Joshoa the Messiah isn't for the faint of heart. Ever tried it?

BruceDLimber · 09-23-2012, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Can you recognise the Nicean creed and confess it?

It's a man-made document which itself split Christianity apart, and that split has never ended to this day!

So no, it means nothing whatever to us, the more so because it directly contradicts the teachings in the Baha'i scriptures about the relationship between God and His Divine Messengers.

BruceDLimber · 09-23-2012, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

I said [the Nicene Creed] was a creed we could all join together on....

Clearly not: the eastern Christians disagreed about its wording and thus broke off to form the Orthodox Christian Church, a split which still endures today!

So it caused dissention and splitting even at its origin, and has thus prevented "all joining together" ever since!

Peace,

Bruce

Pete in Panama · 09-23-2012, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

...I said [the Nicene Creed] was a creed we could all join together on....

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

...the eastern Christians disagreed about its wording...

That's right and it's not what we're talking about, namely, whether Baha'ullah disagrees.

Ocean found 0 matches for 'Nicene' in the Baha'i English Library, and for 'creed' I got a lot of hits on the various decisive man made creeds. It's like the trinity; more Christians died killing each other over disputes on the trinity than died as martyrs. imho our job now is to find what we can like about the wording instead of reverting to past mistakes in finding new ways we don't agree.

Looking over the actual text I couldn't find anything that varied in substance from scripture. Please help us out and let us know if you find any specific guidance on the Nicene Creed.

Iconodule · 09-23-2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

It's a man-made document which itself split Christianity apart, and that split has never ended to this day!

So no, it means nothing whatever to us, the more so because it directly contradicts the teachings in the Baha'i scriptures about the relationship between God and His Divine Messengers.

Actually it is the creed and statement of the church which is the pillar and foundation of truth in the epistles of Saint Paul which you must believe. But this goes only to show that our faiths are not of the same source, thus disproving what many bahai believe about the universality of religions. Since you will not confess teh Christian faith as found in the creed, for whatever reason our faiths are not one, they do not have the same source. Surely even a bahai can see the logic in this? If not you are just holding to a reality which doesn't exist. And thats my point. And It didn't split Christianity apart, it divided the wheat from the chaff, the arrians were the chaff who were defeated and the Nicenes were victorius and still are and are the only ones capable of being victorius as of this moment to the day of judgement from the time of Christ, that the quran you have to believe so says. Unless you really dont believe in those books.

Iconodule · 09-23-2012, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

That's right and it's not what we're talking about, namely, whether Baha'ullah disagrees.

Ocean found 0 matches for 'Nicene' in the Baha'i English Library, and for 'creed' I got a lot of hits on the various decisive man made creeds. It's like the trinity; more Christians died killing each other over disputes on the trinity than died as martyrs. imho our job now is to find what we can like about the wording instead of reverting to past mistakes in finding new ways we don't agree.

Looking over the actual text I couldn't find anything that varied in substance from scripture. Please help us out and let us know if you find any specific guidance on the Nicene Creed.

Killing each other over disputes of the trinity? What do you mean? Yes the arrains were fierce persecutors of the Nicenes, Athanasius was kicked out of his see, forcibly five times and the immense persecution of the arrian emperors which followed after constantine didn't help. To sum up, the world woke up and found itself arrian. You make it seem as if it was the church that had a malicious drive of perseuction, that wasn't the case at all, you are simply mistaken as many bahai are. But you are missing the very crux of hte issue, stince you will not confess this creed, this proves our faiths are not of the same source. You must declare Christians as believing man made lies, call us heretics, call us blasphemers call us the worst of all creatures as the quran indicates. Why aren't bahai consistent?

Iconodule · 09-23-2012, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Clearly not: the eastern Christians disagreed about its wording and thus broke off to form the Orthodox Christian Church, a split which still endures today!

So it caused dissention and splitting even at its origin, and has thus prevented "all joining together" ever since!

Peace,

Bruce

Split off the form the eastern orthodox church? You make it sound like papal infallibility and the papal doctrines were the true doctrines, or that the eastern churches and their patriarchs did not exist before hte 10th century. Your simply wrong on both accounts, but bahais dont know church history so I don't expect you to get it right. The Orthodox dissagreed with the innovations of the pope of rome and the schism happened between the churches, even Im not so calous as to say the roman church began to exist after the schism, no that would be irresponsible history.

09-22-2012, 10:57 PM	#107
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 790	No ahanu, it does not, but it does come from the church which is the body of Christ. And for Christians the body of Christ is not distinct from Christ himself, and though the body might fail, Christ's fealty and love for the body in terms of protecting from false doctrine does not. But your resistance to the creed shows in of itself a contradiction between our two faiths. Yours some sort of varient form of baahi that would deny the absolute infalliblity of the manifestations which existed before you and likely saw the very life of Jesus as it played out, and mine the Christian orthodox faith. Last edited by Iconodule; 09-22-2012 at 11:15 PM.

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09-22-2012, 07:32 PM	#101
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 790	There is that tactic clearly present, bahai do not like challanges, especially critical challanges and they try to guilt trip the people who challange them in many ways. But lord would you ever confess the Nicene creed?

09-22-2012, 10:50 PM	#105
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 790	Im not the one who distorted the topic, if the moderators want to close it, then let them.

09-23-2012, 12:11 AM	#108
ahanu Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: Beijing, China Posts: 564	Okay. So, in your view, do people choose to be gay or straight?

09-23-2012, 12:43 AM	#109
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 790	Choose? As in actively pick which gender they will be attracted to, no I don't think people choose it.