Zhang

This is an important issue but I didn't see any thread specifically regarding it here...

Do you accept the claim that there are about 5 to 7 million Baha'i in the world? So many websites put the number at less specific figures, such as 1 million or in many cases one a hundred thousand or so...

Who do we believe? Is the Baha'i faith exaggerated in terms of numbers? Does this speak to the success or failure of the faith in any way?

Pace9

"A worldwide community of some five million Bahá'ís"

- from www.bahai.org , the international website of the Baha'is of the world

Rani

Hi Zhang,

Pang cited stats from bahai.org, and personally I would respect and trust their estimate.

Some of these websites or blogs that give much lower estimates would seem (to me) to come from people who were once part of the faith but now aren't and are disgruntled, or small groups opposing the Faith.

I don't for a moment believe that the Institutions are artificially exaggerating numbers. Certainly not on purpose -Numbers can only be estimates.

It is the same situation for any other group -it's fluid. Someone may identify themselves as christian one yr, but will stats reflect if they have a period away for a while, whether it be because they are questioning things about their Faith, or whether it's because they have a sick family member and are quite busy to attend anything? It doesn't mean that they've lost their Faith.
I would suggest accuracy for any other group is potentially just as difficult to ascertain 100%.

Accuracy regarding the collection of stats might vary from region to region.

Living in a country (Australia) where the question of religious affiliation or identity is asked every 5 yrs on our Census, I'm going to quite boldly assert that the stats that come out as a result of Census, and the stats issued from our National Centre seem pretty similar.

The question on our Census regarding religious affiliation is optional. Not everyone will choose to answer it. But I would think that how people choose to identify themselves this way will be a very good indicator of the strength of any Community.

Anyway, do we really need to get worried about numbers?

Zhang

Not at all! It just deeply interested me and I love hearing people's opinions. I agree though, most people (especially on youtube) who criticize the numbers and the faith are either racist or of another faith all together.

Thanks for your input!

wombatwolf

The most secure method would probably be to get an estimate from the treasurer's office of how many individual donations there are per year. That would give you a number to start with, and then you could extrapolate from there.

Anton

Hi! You might be interested in reading this thread Any facts regarding the number of Baha’is in India?

Zhang

Lol, great find Anton, the search feature is always to buggy, can't believe I missed that.

arthra

As we have had some threads on numbers...

I would say that in some parts of the world where the Faith is not recognized it would be almost impossible to make a fair estimate...

Consider China... The Faith isn't recognized there and so there are no National bodies that keep membership rolls as in countries where the Faith is recognized... Hong Kong and Macao on the other hand do have recognized bodies but they are restricted to their areas..We know there are Baha'is in China and that apparently it is growing there. Due to restrictions in China Baha'is cannot meet in groups of over twenty people I'm told.

Figuring the numbers of Baha'is in Iran would not be very accurate because again the Faith is not recognized there and it is oppressed.... but we know there are indeed Baha'is there because the government acknowledges this and apparently their paranoia is as strong today as it has been for the past twenty years or so.

Apparently from what I gather there is a fairly large Baha'i population in the United Arab Emirates...but see the following article which indicates some of the difficulties in getting accurate stats..

Census figures count Bahá'ís as Muslim and since many Bahá'ís had passports that identify them as Muslims, the Ministry of Education required Bahá'í children to take the prescribed Islamic studies classes.[11] However, 15 percent of the UAE are not Muslim, Christian, or Jewish. Unofficial sources noted by the U.S. Department of State assert that one-third of these are collectively Bahá'í, Parsi, or Sikh. These estimates differ from census figures because census figures do not count "temporary" visitors and workers, and Bahá'ís are counted as Muslim.[11] By some other estimates there were 55,000 Bahá'ís (1.95% of the national population) as of 2000,[12] and 75,000 Bahá'ís or 1.6% circa 2008 - second only to Iran in the number of Bahá'ís in the nations of the Middle East[2] though the World Christian Encyclopedia estimated 51,700 in 2005.[3]

Bahá'í Faith in the United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Essence of GOD

"And the Horn will be blown, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will fall dead except whom Allah wills. Then it will be blown again, and at once they will be standing, looking on. And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged."

quran [39:68-69]

the number will grow, as we grow old

imranshaykh

Bahais should make a lot of noise about every country that they are banned in. That would make their cause appear less hypocritical than just targeting Iran. I would love to see the Bahai trying to make noise in the UN because China infringes upon their right to meet by not allowing them to assemble in groups of more than 20. Or what about Saudi Arabia where they are banned. or in Indonesia. We never see protests for that. Protests are very targeted towards countries that America has a problem with or which harm the national interests of Israel....

imranshaykh

This verse is about the Day of Judgement. Traditions are clear on what the horn is and who will blow it. And what will happen and then who is the first to be brought back to life and then who will blow the horn again. By no means is this referring to Bahaullah. You have taken just 3 words and highlighted them. Tell us who are the witnesses who are mentioned in this verse. Tell us what is the meaning of that they will not be wronged....

imranshaykh

Also noticed that my post on Bahai numbers is taken off. Someone should have simply proved it wrong instead of taking it off....But anyways...

Essence of GOD

i could tell you, but you'll just dispute and disagree.
so let us follow our own paths.

imranshaykh

I will dispute if you bring your own logic or try to explain the Quran from other than the prophet and his successors. If you bring me traditions from the prophet, then there is no cause to dispute.

Please tell me. But them explain the whole verse and not one part of it.

InvestigateTruth

It seems to me you are assuming that Prophet Muhammad left an interpretation of Quran for every single verse. Although there are tafseers and interpretations for some of the verses, but there is no complete interpretation of Quran from the Prophet or the 12 Imams. So, in my view, if this is what you say, your assumption is not correct.

tonyfish58

It was tradition that kept the Jews back from beholding the Glory of Christ.

It was tradition that held the people in the time of Muhammad from beholding His All Embracing Glory.

It is not the Tradition of the day that I would be looking for to find the truth! That is if we have learned from the lessons of the past.

As stated in another thread - It is to the Prophet themselves and their revealed Word that we must turn to & decide if it is true or false. To do this we must let go of any preconceived ideas on religion.

Regards Tony

Essence of GOD

The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved. Wherefore sow the seeds of wisdom and knowledge in the pure soil of the heart, and keep them hidden, till the hyacinths of divine wisdom spring from the heart and not from mire and clay.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh This verse is about the Day of Judgement. Traditions are clear on what the horn is and who will blow it....

Save that such traditions--including your use of the future tense above--are all too often wrong!

I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

" As the commentators of the Qur'án and they that follow the letter thereof misapprehended the inner meaning of the words of God and failed to grasp their essential purpose, they sought to demonstrate that, according to the rules of grammar, whenever the term "idhá" [meaning 'if' or 'when') precedeth the past tense, it invariably hath reference to the future.... They have idly contended that whereas the Day of Judgment is inevitable, it hath therefore been referred to as an event not of the future but of the past. How vain their sophistry! How grievous their blindness! They refuse to recognize the trumpet-blast which so explicitly in this text was sounded through the revelation of Muhammad. They deprive themselves of the regenerating Spirit of God that breathed into it, and foolishly expect to hear the trumpet-sound of the Seraph of God who is but one of His servants! Hath not the Seraph himself, the angel of the Judgment Day, and his like been ordained by Muhammad's own utterance? Say: What! Will ye give that which is for your good in exchange for that which is evil? Wretched is that which ye have falsely exchanged! Surely ye are a people, evil, in grievous loss.

"Nay, by 'trumpet' is meant the trumpet-call of Muhammad's Revelation, which was sounded in the heart of the universe, and by 'resurrection' is meant His own rise to proclaim the Cause of God."

--The Book of Certitude, pp. 115-116.


Peace, :-)

Bruce

randalljazz

it's on the other thread, dude...right where you left it.

wombatwolf

So your passive-aggressive accusation is something related to how Baha'is are linked to a vague conspiracy about supporting the U.S. and Israel..

I mean, I'd think the reason a lot of "noise" is made about Iran is because there are a lot of Iranian Baha'is living here. My community has about 50 people and I'd say at least 30 of them are Iranian. So obviously they care about their homeland.

randalljazz

afaik iran is the only country which imprisons and executes baha'is only because of their belief, as has been the case (intermittently) since the very dawn of this Revelation...as you well know.

imranshaykh

Completely wrong. Each and every verse is explained by the prophet and his divine successors. That is the basis of the laws and what we call the Shariat.

Lets take one verse - chapter of Ahzab, verse 40 about finality. You look up one tafseer and I will look up another. Agree?

imranshaykh

Dear Bruce, at the outset, peace be to you as well.

Bahaullah interpretation is shallow and contrary to the interpretation of the prophet and his successors wherein each and every word is explained. We have interpretations of verses which run into several tens of pages because that is the depth which is there in Islam. One third of the Quran is about resurrection and what it means and what will happen. And ALL of it contradicts Bahaullah and the Bahai Faith. Bahais and Muslims should both know that.

imranshaykh

Disagree, traditions will help us in interpreting the word of God correctly. Without that, one will misunderstand the word of God. For your information, when we say tradition, it means the narrations of the prophet and his divine successors. It does not mean culture etc. Traditions means the actual words and deeds of the prophet.

imranshaykh

Bahais want to protest for the arrest etc of their friends in Iran. Do it. But do it for all countries. Make a petition and list down all the countries where the Bahai Faith is banned. And then protest all of it. Bahais are banned in Saudi Arabia as well. I would like to see a petition of the Bahais and a formal letter going to Saudi to allow Bahais to live and preach there. Just try it.

So make noise fairly. Protest against every country which has outlawed the Bahai Faith. Why only Iran?

imranshaykh

Not vague. But established conspiracy. Bahais never have anything negative to say about Israel and America.it is as if these countries are infallible! And they have everything negative about Iran - as if there is nothing good at all!

The numbers of Iranis dont matter. It philosophy does. Bahais should protest every country that bans them. Not selectively. Make a list and circulate it. Apparently in China more than 20 Bahais cannot assemble. Protest that too. In Indonesia Bahais are banned. Which means that they cannot write Bahai in school admissions, at work etc. Are Bahais zero in Indonesia? So they are hiding themselves. Draw up a protest against Indonesia as well. Bahais are banned in Saudi Arabia. protest that too. Bahais are not permitted to visit Medina, the city of the prophet. Protest that too!

There is a lot to protest. But all protests are only around Iran...!

InvestigateTruth

Well, I am aware of one tradition from Muhammad which is accepted by both Sunni and Shia, which Muhammad said, He only leaves Quran and His family after Himself. His family are not alive now, so only Quran is left.
So, your claim that Muhammad left an interpretation of Quran is false.

The thread is about Baha'i numbers. You can post the tafseer of 33:40 in the other thread about seal of Prophets. But also post the tafseer of 7:35 as well.

imranshaykh

Dear Investigate Truth, how you are blinded in trying to establish your point! The narrations of the prophet and the Imams have been collected in the form of traditions and that is what constitutes the interpretation of the Quran.

Both are on my site - you can visit and check.

LordOfGoblins

Imams as in Muhamads family OR imams as in self-appointed Imams?
These days anyone can be an Imam...

InvestigateTruth

The problem with Traditions is that there is inaccuracies in them, and many of them are not Authentic. This causes confusion, and between the Moslems there is no agreement which traditions are correct.
When it comes to the matter of Faith, it is extremely important to only refer and rely on the infallible sources.
Most of the Traditions of Islam are not written by the hand or at the time of the Prophet or the 12 Imams, but someone heard from someone else who heard from someone else who heard the Prophet or Imam said such things.
This is the reason, Muhammad said, He left Quran and His family to be refered to, after His Passing. By this, He confirmed that the only infallible source is Quran afterward.

imranshaykh

Imams as in divinely appointed Imams - all of whom came from the Prophets family

imranshaykh

atleast bring one tradition and then lets see whether it is inaccurate or accurate!

just because traditions refute the bahai faith, bahais dont want to bring any tradition at all! in any case, we are referring to traditions of the prophets and the imams only. in none of my discussions have I referred to any scholar or any one else.

Zhang

I think it's safe to say you're not a sunni...

A great deal of your own community would disagree with you, let alone the people here.

InvestigateTruth

I don't know why I have a feeling that imranshaykh gets paid from Iranian government or some group to spread false information about Baha'i Faith.

wombatwolf

" Not vague. But established conspiracy. Bahais never have anything negative to say about Israel and America.it is as if these countries are infallible! And they have everything negative about Iran - as if there is nothing good at all!"


Conspiracy theories are a known fallacy of human thought, so it's pointless to argue with you on them, because no matter how much evidence is presented, you would not listen. It's not your fault, it's a human condition.

But some brief statements-

Baha'is don't say much of anything, good or bad, about Israel. Baha'is don't teach the faith in Israel either. This is because Baha'is have a lot of holy sites in Israel, and they must walk a thin political line to ensure that they are tolerated there and are not embroiled in any of the political machinations in the region.


I mean I've seen dozens of Baha'i pamphlets criticizing racism in America. What do you expect protests on? Foreign policy? Baha'i don't really affiliate their religion with political issues. If they get involved, it's usually through secular organizations.

For example, I'm in Amnesty International and the SPLC.
But there's no specific Baha'i-sponsored political lobbying group.

wombatwolf

Mmm let's not get conspiratorial here please....

tonyfish58

imranshaykh - It was traditions from scriptures that held back the people from recognising Muhammad.

He was questioned and gave replies as written in the Koran 2:189 & 17:85

For instance, when Muḥammad, the Lord of being, was questioned concerning the new moons, He, as bidden by God, made reply: (2:189)“They are periods appointed unto men.” When He replied with this verse Thereupon, they that heard Him denounced Him as an ignorant man, &

Likewise, in the verse concerning the “Spirit,” He saith: (17:85)“And they will ask Thee of the Spirit. Say, ‘the Spirit proceedeth at My Lord’s command.’” As soon as Muḥammad’s answer was given, they all clamorously protested, saying: “Lo! an ignorant man who knoweth not what the Spirit is, calleth Himself the Revealer of divine Knowledge!”


Baha'u'llah States - And now behold the divines of the age who, because of their being honoured by His name, and finding that their fathers have acknowledged His Revelation, have blindly submitted to His truth. Observe, were this people today to receive such answers in reply to such questionings, they would unhesitatingly reject and denounce them—nay, they would again utter the self-same cavils, even as they have uttered them in this day. All this, notwithstanding the fact that these Essences of being are immensely exalted above such fanciful images, and are immeasurably glorified beyond all these vain sayings and above the comprehension of every understanding heart. Their so-called learning, when compared with that Knowledge, is utter falsehood, and all their understanding naught but blatant error.

It is worth a thought

Regards Tony

imranshaykh

I love this. Of all the posts here, this one takes the cake. No, I do not get paid by the Iranian government to spread false information about the Bahai Faith!

I dont think the information I provide is false. I also believe that I have read more Bahai books than most Bahais and in their original language and that is why I believe that the Bahais are being taken for a ride by their own community members. Because if the original books would be made available, then most Bahais would lose faith.

If any Bahai wishes to contest any reference on my site, he is most welcome to do so. There is an open challenge on BahaiAwareness.com that if any reference is incorrect, it will be taken off and I have lived by that credo. I have taken off references which I could not find in Bahai books. But for all the rest I expect Bahais to reciprocate and ask the right questions.

For example, it is clearly written in the books of the Bab that he curses those who consider him to be the Mahdi. or that while he was in Mecca, he thought that someone else was the Mahdi...

So hope that is out of the way. No irani. No government. Just a simple servant of Allah and His prophet.

imranshaykh

Tony, just bringing some verses out of context will not help you.

The verse which you have brought refers to the questions which were posed to the Holy Prophet of Islam by the Jews through the polytheists of Mecca in the 5th year of the revelation and an entire chapter of the Quran was revealed for this purpose.

the questions were:
1. what is the story of the 7 people who slept in the cave
2. what is the story of zulqarnain
3. what is the story of the person whom Moses met
4. what is the ruh?

the jews told the quraysh that if the prophet is a true prophet, he will respond to the first 3 questions and decline the fourth. Which is what happened.

Read the entire chapter of Kahf. All the 4 questions are in the chapter and the verses begin with - "Yas Aloonaka", And they ask you about...

And the prophet responded through the verses of the Quran and answered all their questions. Yet, the Jews, stubborn that they were refused to accept the prophet. And that is why they are condemned in the Quran.

The successor of the prophet, Ali was asked the question as an explanation about the people of the cave and he has explained all of this following which a jew became a Muslim because the answers of Ali matched what was there in the knowledge of the Jews.

You see, if you take verses out of context, you will be misguided. The prophet and the Imams have responded to everything- each and every verse of the quran is analysed in such detail that it is not available in any other form. Turn towards the prophet and the Imams and understand Islam. You will reject the Bahai Faith for it is shallow in thought and concepts.

Zhang

What about the other 85% of muslims who don't recognize ‘Alī?

Your website is so full of gramatical errors I simply cannot bring myself to take it seriously. Not only that, but you make such bold claims and fail to provide even the slightest source or citation. For all I know it could be a very well written lie.

Almost entirely devoid of fact and relevance, written by devout (Shi'a) muslims, for devout (Shi'a) muslims.