sohebbasharat

Are the books on the following links authoritative Baha'i texts or not?? Can someone help please?

Arabic and Persian Baha'i Texts by `Abdu'l-Baha
Arabic and Persian Babi and Baha'i Texts

I live in Lahore, Pakistan and i was having discussion with one of the local Baha'i leaders,, and he told me that Abdul Baha sahib used to offer Muslim style namaz and it was not prohibited then, but he said that it is prohibited now....??

I wanted to have some comments from other Baha'is also,, can anyone help??

Thanks in appreciation
May God bless you......

BruceDLimber

Anything written by the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or 'Abdu'l-Baha is Baha'i scripture.

Things written by Shoghi Effendi or the House of Justice are official statements, but not scripture.

Anything written by a third party or CLAIMED to have been written by the above with no proof is merely a pilgrim's note and has no further official standing.

Peace,

Bruce

sohebbasharat

Thanx BRUCE

Any idea about my second query??

Abdul Baha and Muslim Prayers?

tonyfish58

I would only use the Official Baha'i site to access any Works

Link - Baha'i Reference Library

There is too much distorted information around to source it from an Unofficial Site.

Use the link above and you can not go wrong

Regards Tony

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohebbasharat Any idea about my second query?? Abdul Baha and Muslim Prayers?

Sorry; that I don't know. The only thing I know in that area is that he went to the mosque on occasion.

Regards, :-)

Bruce

AdrianDavila

In the book Baha'u'llah and the New Era, it is reported that Abdu'l-Baha did go for prayer at the mosque.

This is from the Baha'i international website:
"Bahá’u’lláh called upon the Bahá’ís to associate with the followers of all religions in a spirit of love and friendship. Bahá’ís see no intrinsic conflict with other religious communities, as they believe all the revealed faiths originate from the same Source, God, and are essentially one."

So, there was no conflict in Abdu'l-Baha offering up his prayers with Muslims in a mosque.

However, about it being prohibited now to pray in the fashion of Muslims, I'm not sure. Can anyone help with this?

sohebbasharat

In the sense that congregational prayers are prohibited in the Baha'i faith except in the case of prayer of dead..

AdrianDavila

Thank you. I didn't even think about that. Does this apply to all prayers or just the obligatory prayers? As, in some devotional meetings we pray some of the prayers and sing them together.

tonyfish58

Good Question

Here are some quotes

1503. Prayers May be Recited in Unison

"You have asked whether it is permissible for the friends to chant a prayer collectively. There is a difference between chanting a prayer collectively and congregational prayer. The latter is a formal prayer usually led by an individual using a prescribed ritual. Congregational prayer in this form is forbidden in the Faith except in the case of the Prayer for the Dead. While reciting prayers in unison and spontaneously joining in the recitation of the Words of God is not forbidden, the friends should bear in mind the advice of the beloved Guardian on this subject when he stated that:

'... although the friends are thus left free to follow their own inclinations... they should take the utmost care that any manner they practice should not acquire too rigid a character, and thus develop into an institution. This is a point which the friends should always bear in mind, lest they deviate from the clear path indicated in the Teachings.' "
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, February 6, 1975)

"As to the obligatory prayer: Each one must say his prayer alone by himself, and this is not conditional on a private place; that is, both at home and in the worshipping-place, which is a gathering-place, it is allowable for one to say his prayer; but each person must say his prayer by himself. But if they chant supplications together, in a good and effective voice, that is very good" (Lights of Guidance, 465).

Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 93-94

Regards Tony

AdrianDavila

Thank you for the information. This is so helpful.

BruceDLimber

And of course, Baha'i chorales sing prayers all the time, together, and this is perfectly OK! :-)

Bruce

sohebbasharat

Thanx all for your kind replies.

Well the Muslim prayers are formal prayers led by an individual using a prescribed ritual.......So how does that correlate with Abdul Baha offering Muslim prayers in congregation in a mosque?

sohebbasharat

Also, i wanted to ask whether in the Baha'i faith God and Universe are both considered eternal? Is that so?

If someone would be kind enough to answer this also..
Thanx

sohebbasharat

Some references will be helpful..

InvestigateTruth

I don't know how true this story is. But even if it is, I don't know if it was before revealing the Kitabi Aqdas, or after. There is also this sense of gradual fulfillment in revelations. If I remember correctly, drinking Alcohol was not completely forbidden in the beginning of Islam, and it was only during the prayer that was forbidden. later it became completely forbidden. Hope that helps.

aji

Sohebbasharat - In the time of Baha'u'llah, a certain Manikchi Sahib attained His presence in Baghdad, and a few years after their meeting he posed several questions to Baha'u'llah, one of which touches on your insightful question on the topic of pre-existence. This excerpt is from a Tablet Baha'u'llah revealed in reply to his questions:

"The entire creation hath been called into being through the Will of God, magnified be His glory, and peerless Adam hath been fashioned through the agency of His all-compelling Word, a Word which is the source, the wellspring, the repository, and the dawning-place of the intellect. From it all creation hath proceeded, and it is the channel of God’s primal grace. None can grasp the reality of the origin of creation save God, exalted be His glory, Whose knowledge embraceth all things both before and after they come into being. Creation hath neither beginning nor end, and none hath ever unravelled its mystery. Its knowledge hath ever been, and shall remain, hidden and preserved with those Who are the Repositories of divine knowledge. The world of existence is contingent, inasmuch as it is preceded by a cause, while essential pre-existence hath ever been, and shall remain, confined to God, magnified be His glory. This statement is being made lest one be inclined to conclude from the earlier assertion, namely that creation hath no beginning and no end, that it is pre-existent. True and essential pre-existence is exclusively reserved to God, while the pre-existence of the world is secondary and relative. All that hath been inferred about firstness, lastness and such hath in truth been derived from the sayings of the Prophets, Apostles and Chosen Ones of God."

tonyfish58

This was part of a Dream Abdul'baha had just before His Passing - Link

The Passing of Abdu'l-Baha

Extract "Out of the many signs of the approach of the hour when he could say of his work on earth: "It is finished," the following two dreams seem remarkable. Less than eight weeks before his passing the Master related this to his family:

"I seemed to be standing within a great Mosque, in the inmost shrine, facing the Quiblih (that Point of Adoration where-unto the worshippers turn, as in a Christian church to the East) in the place of the Imám himself. I became aware that a large number of people were flocking into the Mosque; more and yet more crowded in, taking their places in rows behind me, until there was a vast multitude. As I stood I raised loudly the 'Call to Prayer.' Suddenly the thought came to me to go forth from the Mosque.

When I found myself outside I said within myself, 'For what reason came I forth, not having led the prayer? But it matters not; now that I have uttered the Call to Prayer, the vast multitude will of themselves chant the prayer.'"

Regards Tony

sohebbasharat

Well according to my local Baha'i friend, it was in circa 1912, that he is reported to have offered prayers in Muslim mosque (i think Woking mosque, London) behind a Muslim Imam. I read it in a book he showed me, but it is in Urdu, i dont know if translation is available or not..My friend says that in Baha'i faith the implementation of the ordinances of Aqdas was gradual,,,

To aji
Thanx for the reference, it is from which book?
What i understood is that creation is eternal,, but what about this very universe we know of? Is it eternal?
I think i should open a new thread for this topic,, present thread is too general.

As i have mentioned above this is not from a dream, i think


Thanks for your replies...

sohebbasharat

My bad!!
There already is a forum about whether universe is eternal.
Is the Universe Eternal?

I should read that first of all....

sohebbasharat

Well i read that thread but it raised more questions than answers...
What do Baha'is mean when they say that universe is eternal?

I mean this universe started with the big bang, before which neither was there any time or matter. So how do Baha'is correlate this with their concept?

aji

Sohebbasharat - The excerpt was from the book "Pen of Glory", a compilation of Tablets written by Baha'u'llah in answer to questions from several seekers.

What you've understood about creation and its eternal nature (in the sense described by Baha'u'llah) applies to the whole of the universe; it is part of the creation of God, and came into being at the Will of God.

Consider how the whole of creation "hath no beginning and no end", and yet its "existence is contingent, inasmuch as it is preceded by a cause". How is it that something without a beginning can be 'preceded' by a cause? Time and matter are themselves a part of creation, as is the science that governs them. Can the very science and reason that is a part of the creation of God ever be used to give account for its own birth?

"How can feeble reason encompass the Qur’án,
Or the spider snare a phoenix in his web?"

sohebbasharat

Thanx aji

But please clear me on this,, dont Baha'is believe that this universe started some 14 billion years ago with the Big Bang? That is my question.

The laws of universe created by God Himself point towards the beginning and hence noneternal nature of this universe. What do you say?

Time is a creation of God and so it surely cant give us any idea about God, if that is what you think is confounding, but it surely does give the idea about the start of this creation, this Universe.

aji

Sohebbasharat - I love your inquisitive thoughts, and you have deep and wonderful perspectives!

There was a time, long ago, that many theorists and scientists believed the universe was created six thousand years ago, by calculations and postulates. Some advancements in the field proved that the universe was in fact fifty thousand years old. Recently, scientific analysis has shown a universal birth date of several billion years ago, with a Big Bang, prior to which time and matter were non-existant. Further research, based on analysis of wavelengths in space radiation emitted from the "edge of the expanding universe" indicated that the universe, while continuing to grow, was in fact slowing in its growth due to the increasing 'pull' of the bodies of matter created from the expansion. Some have postulated that this growth will eventually stop and reverse, and that the universe will return to a singularity, after which another Big Bang will ensue, and so continue the cycle. I assure you that if we revisit this subject in several hundred years, there will be further advancements and new theories on the origin of the Universe.

When Abdu'l-Baha was in America, he gave a talk touching on this subject, I hope this sheds some light:
The Universe Hath Neither Beginning Nor Ending | 'Abdu'l-Bahá in America

It's fantastic that you're giving thought to questions such as these, but aside from reflecting on the nature of the creation of the universe you may also investigate the 'reason' for its creation. In my opinion, a topic well worth consideration!

tonyfish58

It is far more complex than that, I would say - Far beyond what we can currently understand.

If you want to open up a universe of Questions on this subject, then this is a good read on the Creation of the UNIVERSE

Tablet of the Universe

I find this Tablet Amazing and the size of it all mind boggling

P/S Yes Abdul'baha did pray at Mosques. Who is to say He did not say His own prayer?

I also have attended full on Born Again Christian Services where the followers went way beyond what I would call worship. But I just said my own prayers and did not Join in what they were doing

If we are to show unity, we must associate with others. In doing so we must keep our principals, as I am sure Abdul'Baha always would have done.

Regards Tony

Cheers Tony

sohebbasharat

Thank you all for your beautiful replies, i feel indebted.

To aji

Its a pleasure having discussion with you. Now, Two points arise in my mind..

1stly, Regarding your comparison of our present understanding of universe to when we thought that universe is 6000 years old, well that wasnt based on any observation, it was christian dogma which prevailed. Scientific discoveries are not based on how many people think that a particular view is true, but on the strength of the observed data. I need not go into the details of the Big Bang theory here but believe me it is based on data as sound as the data which tells that earth revolves around sun,,
To give an example, one might argue that "science is always changing its viewpoints, and so one day it may be proven that we were wrong about earths rotation, that concludes that actually earth is not moving". But it only points to the ignorance of that person about how science works (it reminds me of a FLAT EARTH SOCIETY i read about once, they claim that earth is flat, not spherical).
Just on a side note, the slowing down you mentioned isnt supported by any evidence as of today, all the data suggests that the speed of expansion of universe is not decreasing but instead increasing. Universe is actually expanding with an acceleration. The Big Freeze Hypothesis seems to be more accurate than Big Crunch. But that is just off topic.

The root of all this problem (you denying the beginning of this universe), as i have understood, is the argument (as presented in "Some Answered Questions") that because God is creator therefore the creation should be co eternal with God, and ipso facto, this universe is eternal. (Correct me if my understanding of Baha'i argument is false). But i think that two points have not been taken into account:

1. Although Creation is an attribute of God, it doesnt imply IMHO that He has to be creating all the time, because He isnt some kind of a machine. He does as He pleases. He creates when He wants to do so. Noone can say that He isnt a creator if He creates as He wills and WHEN He wills....

2. More importantly, why do we think that we can understand all of God's creations? He may have created hundreds and thousands of different kinds of "Universes", but this present universe is just 14 billion years old. Why do we think that we can comprehend all of God's creations? That is why I was asking specifically about what you believe,, because if you just believe that God's attribute of creation has no beginning then that is understandable, i can completely agree, but if you believe that this very Universe has no beginning then i think that we are limiting God according to our own understanding...

2ndly, the Baha'i faith claims that it unites religion and science, but as i have read more and more it really is no different than, lets say Christianity, on how it views scientific research (i aplogise if i sound blunt, but that is what i have seen so far). Two things which come to mind are evolution and this big bang discussion, two of the greatest discoveries of the twentieth century and Baha'is seem to have a different conception regarding both of them,,
I have read Abdul Baha in "Some Answered Questions" which shows that evolution as we understand is false according to him, and he is considered infallible in everything he said, correct me if i am wrong.

I will love to hear your kind replies in this regard.
(Forgive me for writing a lengthy post)

sohebbasharat

Thanx for the reply,
Well as i have mentioned above, the reference that i saw mentions that he offered Namaz (prayers) in congregation behind a Muslim Imam in a mosque, (i am hoping you know how Muslims pray).

Is it OK or not according to Baha'i faith, that is what i wanted to ask...

Can a Baha'i pray a Muslim Namaz behind an Imam, in a congregation?

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohebbasharat [B]ecause God is creator therefore the creation should be co eternal with God, and ipso facto, this universe is eternal.

Not so. Please see the quote above about how the universe (like everything else created) is contingent rather than absolute (the only absolute being God Himself--quote about this upon request).

Quote:

I have read Abdul Baha in Some Answered Questions which shows that evolution as we understand is false according to him, and he is considered infallible in everything he said, correct me if i am wrong.

This is speaking of the common view of man being descended from the ape: that is what he says is incorrect.

I suggest you read von Kitzing's Evolution and the Baha'i Faith, which provides a detailed discussion about this.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

sohebbasharat

Sorry but i am having difficulty in understanding, so this universe is not co-eternal with God?

What is the common view of man's descent? I only know of the scientific view...

sohebbasharat

What does this mean?

aji

Sohebbasharat - you have a strong grasp of the leading scientific principals and theories of the Universe for our time! And at the depth of it all, I'm certain there's something you're looking for. Rather than engaging in a detailed discussion of these principals and the data supporting them, it may be more valuable for us to view these scientific discoveries in light of their progression from ancient times to more recent times. Science has always been an evolving and progressing field, ever getting closer to understanding the truth of the universe, and will continue in its course for centuries to come. The essential Truth of the universe is known by God, while we have been given spiritual and physical means to constantly strive to get closer to it. As our perceptions change, our understanding follows, and further light is shed on our path. The Truth of the Creation of God, however, is changeless. By its own limited means, science strives toward this ultimate goal, but can never encompass or attain the Source of its own creation. The truth of Science and and the Truth of Religion agree in that "reason" is key to shedding knowledge and light on our intellect, but it is not to say the two are one and the same in all manners.

Regarding your notes on "Some Answered Questions" and your first point on Creation as an attribute of God. I hope you find the following quote by Baha'u'llah from "Gems of Divine Mysteries" helpful. Consider the "attributes" of God, and reflect on their potential existence without creation:

"From time immemorial [God] hath been veiled in the eternity of His Essence and concealed in the infinitude of His own Being. And when He purposed to manifest His beauty in the kingdom of names and to reveal His glory in the realm of attributes, He brought forth His Prophets from the invisible plane to the visible, that His name "the Manifest" might be distinguished from "the Hidden" and His name "the Last" might be discerned from "the First", and that there may be fulfilled the words:
"He is the First and the Last; the Seen and the Hidden; and He knoweth all things!" Thus hath He revealed these most excellent names and most excellent words in the Manifestations of His Self and the Mirrors of His Being."

With regard to your second point, I wholeheartedly agree - I don't believe we can ever understand all of God's creation. There is certainly a lot more to the big picture than what we can see and observe. I hope Abdu'l-Baha's elaboration on the subject is helpful from the "Tablet of the Universe":

"The Dawning Places of Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness are also sanctified beyond the bounds of number, and the luminous spiritual worlds are exalted above limits and restrictions. In like manner the worlds of bodily existence the mind of no man can reckon nor the understanding of the learned comprehend. Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.' The fact that philosophers and sages have posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the interposition of many veils."

InvestigateTruth

What Baha'i Scripture teaches, is that, regardless how human looked before, he was still a human, because of human spirit, which the animals do not have.
The science has no access to discover spirit of human. Thus, the scientific discoveries although has explained that human evolved and perhaps it looked like some animals, but this is only a physical discovery, not a spiritual one! Therefore what the science is missing is that a human has a spirit which is different than souls of animals.

Regarding universe being infinite, Abdulbaha explained, a creator without creation is impossible. He also explained, creating the universe, is not creating something out of nothing, but it is the power of bringing the matters together to create various species.
Hope that helps.

sohebbasharat

To aji

Thank you for your reply. My understanding is pretty rudimentary, believe me.........

Ok, My first point may be understood by the explanation you gave, but i think that second point is still valid. Saying that this universe was formed 14 billion years ago, as we understand by the physical laws made by God, doesnt raise any argument against the attribute of Creation of God. We are just saying that this physical universe started 14 billion years ago (calculating by the very time God created for this universe).
This confusion will only arise if we think that all of God's creation is limited to this very universe only, and secondly if we think that we can perceive all of God's creations. What do you say? Believing in 14 billion years old universe that started with a big bang, does it coincide with your Baha'i understanding? I think it shouldnt...

sohebbasharat

To InvestigateTruth
What does that even mean? What makes us special is the ability to discern right and wrong, and then hopefully try to tred the right path. How did animals have human spirit? Abdul Baha clearly writes that humans did not evolve from animals, but it is exactly what happened!!!
You have right to your opinions, but surely this does not go well with the claim that science is correlated with religion in the Baha'i faith, as far as i understand.

Really? this means that God didnt actually create the universe, He just mixed it?

These two points were really strange for me, plz explain yourself further, Thanx

aji

It's a good question sohebbasharat, and I think you are on the right track. God's creation is not limited only to this expanse of vast space and matter around us, and we certainly can't perceive all of His creations. Everything in existence other than God Himself is His creation, both in the spiritual and physical realms, and it is without limit and beyond computation, “It is God who hath reared the heavens without pillars thou canst behold; then mounted His throne."

Beyond the guidance on this subject in the Writings, it's up to each individual believer to reflect and speculate the details within themselves. I hope you continue to open-heartedly question everything!

sohebbasharat

Thanx a lot for your guidance aji

But you didnt answer my question, would it be against the Baha'i believes for a Baha'i to believe what i asked? that this universe had a beginning,,,,

waiting for your reply...

InvestigateTruth

It means, human gradually developed on earth, but not once.
Similar to the developement of a human in the womb of mother.
Did a human in the womb of a mother, looked like a human from beginning?
I suggest you look at a 1 week embryo picture. It even looks like a worm!!
But still, that is a human, because He has a spirit.

That's right. And there is a connection between our spirit, and mind. Our ability to think comes from Spirit. (See Some Answered Questions)


Who said animals have spirit? (I didn't)


What Abdulbaha says is this:

"... man, in the beginning of his existence and in the womb of the earth, like the embryo in the womb of the mother, gradually grew and developed, and passed from one form to another, from one shape to another, until he appeared with this beauty and perfection, this force and this power. It is certain that in the beginning he had not this loveliness and grace and elegance, and that he only by degrees attained this shape, this form, this beauty and this grace. There is no doubt that the human embryo did not at once appear in this form; neither did it then become the manifestation of the words “Blessed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of Makers.”* Gradually it passed through various conditions and different shapes, until it attained this form and beauty, this perfection, grace and loveliness. Thus it is evident and confirmed that the development and growth of man on this earth, until he reached his present perfection, resembled the growth and development of the embryo in the womb of the mother: by degrees it passed from condition to condition, from form to form, from one shape to another, for this is according to the requirement of the universal system and Divine Law."

So the above quote says, just like a human, in the womb of mother in the beginning does not look like a human, but it gradually is shaped untill it reaches its final state, the developement of a human on earth, similarly goes through evolving.


I don't see how it does not go. Accept as I said, human has a spirit.

No, it does not mean that. God created universe.
Can our science create the most neglegible insect from dust?

Basically, the idea that there was a time that there was nothing, and later God created things from nothing means, that, God had waited from eternity, untill at some point, He came up with a creation. This idea contradicts with God being creator, and all-knowing.
Are you saying there was a time, God did not have a creation, and all the sudden remebered to create?

Finally it is good to remember, Baha'u'llah said, there will never come a time, that human can understand the creation completely!

aji

Sohebbasharat - It's been a wonderful interchange! This is as direct an answer as I'm able to provide: I believe if one were to affirm the universe had always existed and will continue to do so, it would be correct. And conversely, if they were to affirm that the universe was proceded by a Cause and thereby knew a birth or "beginning", this would also be true.

Baha'u'llah writes:
"As regards thine assertions about the beginning of creation, this is a matter on which conceptions vary by reason of the divergences in men's thoughts and opinions. Wert thou to assert that it hath ever existed and shall continue to exist, it would be true; or wert thou to affirm the same concept as is mentioned in the sacred Scriptures, no doubt would there be about it, for it hath been revealed by God, the Lord of the worlds. Indeed He was a hidden treasure. This is a station that can never be described nor even alluded to. And in the station of 'I did wish to make Myself known', God was, and His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning."

There is a fantastic elaboration of one Baha'i's thoughts on this seeming contradiction, entitled "How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Big Bang":
Cosmology and the Baha'i Writings and the Harmony

I hope some of this helps on your search, even if only to the extent of a needle's eye.

Much love!

sohebbasharat

I am seeming at loss to understand your points, Species are not defined by their phenotype, but by their genotype...If an embryo looks different than an adult, then what? It has the same genotype,,
But humans evolved from apes, or whatever you may call it, with a different genotype!!
And as you go backwards on the chain, their was a time when there were only bacterias (unicellular organisms), Do you mean to say that there were "Human bacterias" and "NonHuman bacterias"? How were humans distinct from the beginning?? When they were unicellular, did they have the same genetic material as they have now? If not, then they were not "Humans" from the beginning....
I would recommend you read any evolution book written by a scientist (The Greatest Show on Earth is a good one), because your concept of evolution is seemingly altogether different...With all due respect.

Not from dust, but surely from the genetic material, i.e by taking the material already present and by tweaking it genetically, new species can be formed.

As i have explained in the previous posts, if we agree that there was a time that this universe was not in existence, it doesnt mean that there was no creation! Do you actually believe that this universe is the only creation of God? That would be preposterous. Who knows how many different types of creation were there before our universe, what i am saying is that saying that this universe had a beginning does not in any way limit God's creation.
Understand?

sohebbasharat

To aji
Thanx a lot, it was pleasure discussing with you,

To consider the statements of Bahaullah and Abdul Baha infallible even when they are related to science, poses a problem from me.

Islam, as i understand, does not put these kinds of restrictions relating to the scientific world, and prophecies of Quran, as i understand, match perfectly with the basis of the sciences.

But i am continuing my study, remember me in your prayers

sohebbasharat

To InvestigateTruth

I wanted to ask another question, if you would be so kind to answer.
I have read on one or two anti-Bahai websites a reference marked ISHRAQAT page 293, in which it states is written that prophethood and messengership finished with Muhammad saw, do you know about it? What does it mean?