Stop derailing threads pls... - Page 2

LordOfGoblins · 09-27-2012, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

. So Stop this, stop this non intellectual emotionalism in responding. .

lol..

there is not a whole lot of intellectualism one can bring into this IMO. Its either you choose to take the harsh 'Koran is condmening Christians' approach or you choose to see it in a more moderate view that there are positive things to say about Christains as well...
Any intellectual reason one might give as to why he said it you would just brush off anyway. Which you already did when I said that the culture demands simplified commands to the arabs. You wont find such a statement condemning Christians or Muslims as whole the Bahai writings...

Pete in Panama · 09-27-2012, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...I have presented a reason as to why I believe these contradictions exist. That I think that at certain tiems with in the life of Muhammad his understanding changed and he invented the doctrine of abrogation and changed things...

Agreed. In fact, you've spent a lot of time working with what's wrong.

At the same time you're not interested in why we should spend time talking about Christ and how his coming was foretold. What I'm saying is that if you showed an understanding of how Christ was true, then you'd be a lot more convincing when you're explaining why other faiths aren't.

Zhang · 09-27-2012, 04:05 PM

This argument cannot and will not go anywhere.

Each of us has our own premise

Icon

Bible is unchanged word of God.

Contradictions can be explained through context.

Muslims are Savages

Me (and many others)

Qur'an Apologist

Islam is misconstrued and made evil by Media and crazy Hadiths

Muslims are people too

---

Do you see how neither side will ever budge? We are both convinced that the other party is crazy. When the Christians invaded Muslim lands they raped and pillaged. When the Muslim conquered Syria they let Christians pray on Sundays in their church.

Hmmm.

CNN Poll:

Iconodule · 09-28-2012, 02:46 AM

I leave no room for in-between because I am not convinced there is an inbetween quite frankly and I have yet to be convinced. And this isn’t a retarded theory at all, this seems quite honest when we consider the life of Muhammad, that MEccan suras are quite different in tone and contrast to the Medinen suras. And the concept is quite quranic, that is one of abrogation

Surah 2:106:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

The question is obvious of course why are Allah’s words that come later more perfect than Allah’s previous words? And I don’t think Muhammad was fickle, at least from what we know of him, it seems to me the historical sources are incredibly inrealiable but they are the only way in which to read the quran at a level with even a hint of understanding. Otherwise the quran is a mess, a book from which no consistent meaning can be grasped. So the life of the prophet it revolved around, or supposebly revolved around is of key importance in its interpretation, despite the bahai who would rather ignore the hadiths and traditions or the quranist.

But the problem is Lord of Goblins, that these are conflicting statements, and theres no way to exclude Christians from the category of the worst of all creatures. At one time the quran says we are saved, despite our obvious and blasphemous shirk. Allah literally despises those who commit shirk. Of course our theology is not shirk, but from an Islamic point of view or even a quranic it very much is if Jesus is viewed as a mere creature which you don’t seem to consider him.

But this continuous label of fundamentalist Christianity confuses me, not only because Orthodoxy is the furthest thing away from fundamentalism you could imagine, but that in simply presenting a view that is contrary to your own. You get emotional, the need to project as it were. Maybe you are the bahai fundamentalist who cannot face the truth. Then again all religions are true in bahai are they not? At least that’s what some bahai want to teach, but I think you know better than that Lord.

You don’t find it reprehensible to say another human being is the worst of all creatures? That some human beings are literally worse than pigs? And yes there is a difference between the condemnation of Jesus and the condemnation of the quran, Jesus never dehumunized anyone, only told them that they were liars and hypocrites ultimately in the vein of Satan. The quran makes some human beings worse than pigs.

But if you have no problem with it, please tell me that you consider me the worst of all creatures, because I glorify Christ Jesus as God almighty, one of the holy trinity. The reason for salvation and the Hope of the resurrection. Theres are least five heresies there from a bahai standpoint. Please do the consistent thing and say I am the worst of all creatures, that I am a blasphemer (as per the quran). Though I doubt you will do it, because bahai are not consistent.

And Pete, in criticising bahai I may or may not mention my Christianity. If you want to learn why Christianity is right then perhaps there are other places, but that isn’t my concern right now.

I see also that Zhang has made some typical strawmen remarks that don’t actually represent what I believe at all. Zhang I’m beginning to find this typical of you.
I said the Islamic world are savages, the sharia of islam and Muhammad is ungodly and I should dare say evil. I condemn this but you even if a bahai were being persecuted right in front of you I dare say would call out the muslim on this point and say what they are doing is evil. In contrast to your statement you won’t judge anyone. Or am I wrong?

Muslims are people yes, and there are muslims that have adopted a Christian sensibility in commanding themselves, throwing way the muslim ethic of Muhammad and his successors. The Islamic world hasn’t and while they are people, Nazi Germany was also composed of people, as was Atheistic Russia. Doesn’t mean they deserve to be thought of as totally good. Hey maybe I should make a bad 13 minute video about the life of Muhammad and let the good Islamic world rationally critique its poor quality while recognising many of the scenes are actually from their own traditions. I bet the Islamic world would tolerate that.

And that you think the Media makes Islam evil I find hilarious especially when the media goes to its extreme to depict islam as Good.

But yes, of course it was the evil Christians who invaded. We can’t forget that. But lets not also forget that it was military islam that had a successive campaign which invaded the west, taking over Christian countries, Spain, Egypt, Byzantium and north Africa. We can’t forget that the pilgrims were at one point forbidden from entering Jeruselum. No no, evil Christians. Oh and we can blame all Christianity for the crusades of the western Christians, despite the fact during the fourth crusade the Latins invaded Constantinople violated their nuns/women, Icons, Holy relics, treasury, murdered and the like for three days.

When the Muslims invaded Byzantium they stole the Hagia Sophia and the most holy churches and desecrated them by having Muslims pray and plaster of the icons in them.

Zhang if you are going to be so bias and totally callous in your historical analysis then be prepared to eat the history of 1400 years of barbarism.

LordOfGoblins · 09-28-2012, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

I leave no room for in-between because I am not convinced there is an inbetween quite frankly and I have yet to be convinced. And this isn’t a retarded theory at all, this seems quite honest when we consider the life of Muhammad, that MEccan suras are quite different in tone and contrast to the Medinen suras. And the concept is quite quranic, that is one of abrogation
.

There IS inbetween.
The inbetween is all teh different levels of attainment between the high heaven and the low hell. There isnt JUST heaven and hell. Jesus is at the top and Caiphas at the bottom (for example) and there are all ranges of people between them. again Stop thinking in this black and white absolutist approach. As long as you do you will keep confusing yourself and making excuses up in your head as to why things contradict. Holy writings are not to be taken absolutely. They point to absolute truth while using a relative framework.
Even the word "worst" is a translation from another language and in this context it is talking about remoteness from God.
See the following verses.

Sahih International
Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.
98:8

Their reward with Allah will be gardens of perpetual residence beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them and they with Him. That is for whoever has feared his Lord.

So in this context its saying you are remote from God for not recognising the manfestation of God for the day. Its exactly the same concept as said in the Bahai writings, just in a harsher way.

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is
the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of
His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who
representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His
Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this
duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived
thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of
every righteous deed

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 19)

They say: 'Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: 'The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with God and doubtest.'

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 131)

Pete in Panama · 09-28-2012, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...the Islamic world are savages...

That doesn't prove Christ right. Our goal spreading Christ's teachings because that's the goal we've been told to strive for. There are a lot of references in the old testament foretelling Christ's coming. Those quotes make a much better proof, but it all depends on where the passion is.

LordOfGoblins · 09-28-2012, 04:58 AM

Iconodule. Maybe being a Christian you are not familar with the Bahai concept of heaven and hell. Heaven is the degree to which you are close to God. There are many different levels of closeness. Its not just black and white close and far...

LordOfGoblins · 09-28-2012, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

But the problem is Lord of Goblins, that these are conflicting statements, and theres no way to exclude Christians from the category of the worst of all creatures. At one time the quran says we are saved, despite our obvious and blasphemous shirk. Allah literally despises those who commit shirk. Of course our theology is not shirk, but from an Islamic point of view or even a quranic it very much is if Jesus is viewed as a mere creature which you don’t seem to consider him.

But this continuous label of fundamentalist Christianity confuses me, not only because Orthodoxy is the furthest thing away from fundamentalism you could imagine, but that in simply presenting a view that is contrary to your own. You get emotional, the need to project as it were. Maybe you are the bahai fundamentalist who cannot face the truth. Then again all religions are true in bahai are they not? At least that’s what some bahai want to teach, but I think you know better than that Lord.

You don’t find it reprehensible to say another human being is the worst of all creatures? That some human beings are literally worse than pigs? And yes there is a difference between the condemnation of Jesus and the condemnation of the quran, Jesus never dehumunized anyone, only told them that they were liars and hypocrites ultimately in the vein of Satan. The quran makes some human beings worse than pigs.

But if you have no problem with it, please tell me that you consider me the worst of all creatures, because I glorify Christ Jesus as God almighty, one of the holy trinity. The reason for salvation and the Hope of the resurrection. Theres are least five heresies there from a bahai standpoint. Please do the consistent thing and say I am the worst of all creatures, that I am a blasphemer (as per the quran). Though I doubt you will do it, because bahai are not consistent.

yes... you are the 'worst' of creatures..

5. O SON OF DUST!
Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself over his brother. Say, O brethren! Let deeds, not words, be your adorning.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

What are you looking for?
A pat on the back from me to say your a fine upstanding man whose going to heaven or a finger of doom condeming you to hell?
I am not in a position to judge that. We each have our own journey..

LordOfGoblins · 09-28-2012, 09:28 PM

How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 265)

Iconodule just wants to stick to one quote and not bring in anythning else.

Iconodule · 09-29-2012, 02:26 AM

No, I don't want a pat on the bck, I find your honesty in considering me the worst of all creatures quite refreshing from the standard Bahai nonsense of politcal correctness. You unlike the modern bahai will actually do the thing your faith commands you, call out Christians for their abject heresy, tell them they are the worst of all creatures for their shirk, that they were not of God. This is truely astonishing as I did not think a Bahai was capable of this. You have proven me wrong.

But I know according to the quran I am damned, that there is no chance I can live in the sight of God, that I could be in communion with God. Of which I am fine with, because the God of Muhammad is not my God, the God of Bahai is an entity as far away as possible from Christ. I have no qualm with this. I recognise the theology and that it is just being honest to say such things. Im not poltically correct, im not the theological subjectivist, if I were I would be a bahai (That is the bahai who isn't clear on things) or a Liberal Anglican.

But I beg to differ on your quote from the quran. it says those who believe, obviously this is talking about those who believe in allah. I do not. I reject Allah and Allah has rejected me as a heretic, a blasphemer the worst of all creatures. I am not just far from God in islam, I am set apart by an ocean of lava, air of LPG and Im a cripple on top of it. That is if we take the bahai understanding. I must say after seeing some of the hadiths and reading the quran's description hell very much seems like a place typically depcited in western cartoons and tv as the Christian hell, of course I think they get the Christian hell wrong.

LordOfGoblins · 09-29-2012, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

No, I don't want a pat on the bck, I find your honesty in considering me the worst of all creatures quite refreshing from the standard Bahai nonsense of politcal correctness. You unlike the modern bahai will actually do the thing your faith commands you, call out Christians for their abject heresy, tell them they are the worst of all creatures for their shirk, that they were not of God. This is truely astonishing as I did not think a Bahai was capable of this. You have proven me wrong.

But I know according to the quran I am damned, that there is no chance I can live in the sight of God, that I could be in communion with God. Of which I am fine with, because the God of Muhammad is not my God, the God of Bahai is an entity as far away as possible from Christ. I have no qualm with this. I recognise the theology and that it is just being honest to say such things. Im not poltically correct, im not the theological subjectivist, if I were I would be a bahai (That is the bahai who isn't clear on things) or a Liberal Anglican.

But I beg to differ on your quote from the quran. it says those who believe, obviously this is talking about those who believe in allah. I do not. I reject Allah and Allah has rejected me as a heretic, a blasphemer the worst of all creatures. I am not just far from God in islam, I am set apart by an ocean of lava, air of LPG and Im a cripple on top of it. That is if we take the bahai understanding. I must say after seeing some of the hadiths and reading the quran's description hell very much seems like a place typically depcited in western cartoons and tv as the Christian hell, of course I think they get the Christian hell wrong.

So you really think it is our right as human beings to go around calling members of other religions worst or best of creatures...
Remember Im not a manifestation of God i dont have God telling me peoples stations.
This is not the Bahai way. Why do you think it is 'refreshing' that people should be given the right to judge anothers value in Gods eyes?
People should mind their business and focus on themselves Id say that is a more pleasing attitude in Gods eyes and the more 'Bahai way' then announcing someones value as if they know that persons personal spiritual journey.

Iconodule · 09-29-2012, 02:45 AM

Yes, I think that is your right and perogative to do so (Though right does not indicate one ought to, from my perspective, an orthodox Christian perspective to say anyone is less than an animal is an insult to God and hte divine image he has gifted each and ever person). If God is all knowing, if God is all Good. His statements cannot possibly be false or immoral. Thus if you are true, you are justified in saying Christians are the worst of all creatures because they have so far deviated from God.

And What I found refreshing in your now obviously sarcastic comment, was that you were willing to stand by the quran. You were willing to not whitewash the clear sentiment that the quran consistently portrays against those who disbelieve and commit shirk. But it seems you aren't ready to make that step, that very rational and justified step (assuming you are right of course) in saying such things. At the very least you cannot deny we are the worst of all creatures, even if you won't openly admit it. Nor could you condemn the muslim who calls us the worst of all creatures. (and yeah I've had that happen many a time).

But the facts are clear.

The worst of all creature are disbelievers (Which Christians are)

Blasphemers are those who would associate partners or make men equal to Allah (which Christians do, though obviously not in the context of their own theology).

That Allah loves not those who reject faith, which the Christians do.

We fit all the categories for being the msot despised people in the quran. The Jews are obviously better than us because they are unitarians and I might go as far to say that even the atheist who does not believe in Allah might be higher because they don't associate anyone with Allah. Its all about putting hte pieces together.

Zhang · 09-29-2012, 04:58 AM

Icon let me humor you for a second, okay?

Following your approach of a literal interpretation.

The worst of all believers are non-Christians.

Quote:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Juxtapose this alongside a popular Surah:

Quote:

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

WOW! Quote mining is fun!

Icon, if millions of kind, loving Muslims, Bhuddists, Athiests, and Hindus will burn forever in righteous fire because they didn't accept your version of Jesus, I would rather burn and suffer alongside them then know that I am in heaven while the innocent suffer.

If you feel any differently than you are immeasurably selfish.

Iconodule · 09-29-2012, 12:47 PM

Interesting that you would obviously be going to some sort of Evilbible dot com website for those references. Though I have no problem with these quotes because they represent the law for Israel. Not the law for everyone. Specifically the law for old covenant Israel and to suggest they are still in tact or still to be practiced shows a fundamental lack of understanding between the Old and new covenant.

Obviously those can only apply to Israel, within Israel. These laws were for the protection and holiness of Israel. They were not like Muhammad’s commands for mass Jihad and conquering of all nations, the Israelites had a land and that was their land.
But none of those verses dehumize or make people worse than creatures, it just states the punishment for certain actions, IE death. But I didn’t quotemine Zhang. You seem incapable of even considering the things I have said, that there is a complexity to the quran you just cannot grasp because of your bahai faith. Why can’t you simply admit Christians are blasphemers, the worst of all creatures, That god does not love them.

And the fact God does not love them within the bahai faith is easily demonstrated by the fact that Christ abandoned his body without word or warning when Muhammad came along. And your constant strawmen attacks on me about my beliefs concerning hell are dishonest and quite frankly immoral. You don’t know my theology when it comes to heaven and hell, yet you constantly want to force the typical western image of hell on to me. This is not good Zhang. This is immoral what you are doing. '

But the thing is, you quote a book you supposebly believe in. Do you actually believe, as I do that God at that time commanded the death of certain members of society? I doubt you do. Likewise you will not accept what the quran says concerning Christians and false believers.

Zhang · 09-29-2012, 01:03 PM

Bleh i'm done, I mean it this time.

Just going to try to live up to the image of Muhammad (pbuh) the best I can, I hope my faults do not reflect in any way on the Qur'an. They are my own selfishness, anger, and impatience.

Regards,

-张

Iconodule · 09-29-2012, 01:59 PM

Better marry a nine year old fast before she grows up. Then consumate the marraige at 11.

Zhang · 09-29-2012, 02:46 PM

Okay, thanks for the advice!

God bless

-张

Pete in Panama · 09-29-2012, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...Allah loves not those who reject faith, which the Christians do...

Some say worshiping "Allah" is different than worshiping "God", "Dios", or "Gott", but Mark 15:34 has Jesus praying to "Eloi", pronounced "eh-law" in Aramaic (click here to listen to Aramaic pronunciation).

LordOfGoblins · 09-29-2012, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

And What I found refreshing in your now obviously sarcastic comment, was that you were willing to stand by the quran. You were willing to not whitewash the clear sentiment that the quran consistently portrays against those who disbelieve and commit shirk. But it seems you aren't ready to make that step, that very rational and justified step (assuming you are right of course) in saying such things. At the very least you cannot deny we are the worst of all creatures, even if you won't openly admit it. Nor could you condemn the muslim who calls us the worst of all creatures. (and yeah I've had that happen many a time).

But the facts are clear.

The worst of all creature are disbelievers (Which Christians are)

Blasphemers are those who would associate partners or make men equal to Allah (which Christians do, though obviously not in the context of their own theology).

That Allah loves not those who reject faith, which the Christians do.

We fit all the categories for being the msot despised people in the quran. The Jews are obviously better than us because they are unitarians and I might go as far to say that even the atheist who does not believe in Allah might be higher because they don't associate anyone with Allah. Its all about putting hte pieces together.

Its not about whitewashing or upholding what the Quran says. As I said these things are for the people of the time. If you ask a Bahai who is the worst of all creatures hes not going to jump to that qyote from the Koran because he has his own holy writings he must adhere to which take precedance. For a Bahai the worst of all creatures is probably a covenant breaker and definately not a Christian or Muslim just for being those things and no other reason...
OK? Please let it sink into your head now because we are going in circles now...
thanks

Iconodule · 09-29-2012, 06:15 PM

So the quran is not a holy writing to you that is absolutely right and perfect? But let me ask you is the muslim justified in saying this of the Christian? It seems then they must. But in not calling the worst of all Creatures you think the quran is wrong, in not considering me a blasphemer you think the quran is wrong. If you think allah loves me, then you think the quran is wrong. And that just my point. The bahai have tied themselves to these books which fundamentally go against everything they standfor. Be it the gospel of John which says Christ created everything that began to exist. Or the quran which calls Christians people worse than animals.

Iconodule · 09-29-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama

Some say worshiping "Allah" is different than worshiping "God", "Dios", or "Gott", but Mark 15:34 has Jesus praying to "Eloi", pronounced "eh-law" in Aramaic (click here to listen to Aramaic pronunciation).

Its not in the words, its in the concept. Its in the meat. For instance teh Christian God is trinitarian the bahai God is not. Therefore the two cannot possibly be true or one. ONe must be false, the other true.

LordOfGoblins · 09-29-2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

So the quran is not a holy writing to you that is absolutely right and perfect? But let me ask you is the muslim justified in saying this of the Christian? It seems then they must. But in not calling the worst of all Creatures you think the quran is wrong, in not considering me a blasphemer you think the quran is wrong. If you think allah loves me, then you think the quran is wrong. And that just my point. The bahai have tied themselves to these books which fundamentally go against everything they standfor. Be it the gospel of John which says Christ created everything that began to exist. Or the quran which calls Christians people worse than animals.

Its telling people what they needed to hear. To help them understand fear of God. It is progressive revelation. Do you take the scriptures of the jews to be wrong? THe ones which Christ contradicted. Or do you take them relvent for the time..

5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

Iconodule · 09-30-2012, 11:36 AM

Okay and this refutes me how? Jesus nowhere dehumizes people. He nowhere declares people less than animals like your God does. So pointing out the differences between covenants old and New, in no way refutes my saying. nor does it lessen the abject evil of the quran to declare one of God's creation worse than animal. You don't find it disgusting do? And this progressive revelation excuse simply doesn't cut it. Because this then means at one time CHRISTIANS WERE WORSE THAN PIGS, admit this, simply be honest as a bahai and say yes at one time God considered the Christians blasphemers and worse than pigs. Be honest as a bahai, I know its hard but you have to admit this. Every type of justification you give, comes up short in the end. And theres a reason for this. Because you know the quran is right to call Christians worse than Pigs.

Pete in Panama · 09-30-2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

...teh Christian God is trinitarian...

Huh. I'm remembering chatting with a Jehovah's Witness who was saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all divine, but the 'Trinity' was satanic. I didn't push it. The thing is that it would have been wrong for me to say the Christian 'god' was wrong because it didn't have the trinity.

fwiw, you may have seen this symbol that Baha'is often use:

When I asked what it meant I was told...

My reaction (at the time I was in college studying to be a Presbyterian minister) was that Baha'is believed in the trinity just like I did. You may have spoken with someone with a different approach.

LordOfGoblins · 09-30-2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Okay and this refutes me how? Jesus nowhere dehumizes people. He nowhere declares people less than animals like your God does. So pointing out the differences between covenants old and New, in no way refutes my saying. nor does it lessen the abject evil of the quran to declare one of God's creation worse than animal. You don't find it disgusting do? And this progressive revelation excuse simply doesn't cut it. Because this then means at one time CHRISTIANS WERE WORSE THAN PIGS, admit this, simply be honest as a bahai and say yes at one time God considered the Christians blasphemers and worse than pigs. Be honest as a bahai, I know its hard but you have to admit this. Every type of justification you give, comes up short in the end. And theres a reason for this. Because you know the quran is right to call Christians worse than Pigs.

Refute you?
What is your argument? You're just repeating this "Admit the Koran calls CHristians worse of all creatures". The text is clear enough.
What are you actually trying to argue?
If your trying to argue that I should admit that that is what I think of Christians now, I have refuted you with progressive revelation as per above..
Bahai text takes precedence for Bahai..

LordOfGoblins · 09-30-2012, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Okay and this refutes me how? Jesus nowhere dehumizes people. He nowhere declares people less than animals like your God does. So pointing out the differences between covenants old and New, in no way refutes my saying. nor does it lessen the abject evil of the quran to declare one of God's creation worse than animal. You don't find it disgusting do? And this progressive revelation excuse simply doesn't cut it. Because this then means at one time CHRISTIANS WERE WORSE THAN PIGS, admit this, simply be honest as a bahai and say yes at one time God considered the Christians blasphemers and worse than pigs. Be honest as a bahai, I know its hard but you have to admit this. Every type of justification you give, comes up short in the end. And theres a reason for this. Because you know the quran is right to call Christians worse than Pigs.

look i get it. You hate the Koran and you have a lot of anger inside of you about that verse.
It doesnt really affect my view or inspire me to new realisations to keep repeating yourself but you are nicely making yourself look like someone with a chip on their shoulder..

Iconodule · 10-01-2012, 10:44 PM

The Jehovahs witnesses are radically innovative in terms of their theology, that is they accept a more arrian theology. Thus they are not Christians because they have fundamentally gone astray from the faith, even the bahai must accept this. Because the Jehovah’s Witnesses did not exist before this modern era and the quran tells that the true followers of Christ would be victorius. Thus the Bahai cannot claim that the Jehovah’s witnesses represent a form of Christianity. Neither can the historian in my opinion.

Now Lord of Goblins, since you suggest the text is clear enough and you refuse to give any sort of interpretation of it. Then I must conclude based on that you truly do along with the muslims and other bahai that the Christians are the worst of all believers. This is all I really want the bahai to admit. Its not about arguing its about asking honesty of a faith that is deliberately deceptive in the way it describes itself so as to appear brilliant unto others. You can’t hide the dehumizing elements within bahai. You can’t. And you have refuted nothing on me on progressive revelation.

And Its not that I hate the quran, I hate what the quran stands for. That is the deliberate dehumization of people and deifying of Muhammad a man by all rights was digusting morally and theologically. If you cannot recognise that the quran calls Christians many things and that it inherently contradicts itself, then theres nothing more to say Lord of Goblins. You will refuse to accept the quran and what it says concerning the humanity of Christians and their place while believing it to be true. There is a terrible irony here that you don’t realise. At least the Jihadis understand the quran better than the bahai.

LordOfGoblins · 10-01-2012, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Now Lord of Goblins, since you suggest the text is clear enough and you refuse to give any sort of interpretation of it. Then I must conclude based on that you truly do along with the muslims and other bahai that the Christians are the worst of all believers. This is all I really want the bahai to admit. Its not about arguing its about asking honesty of a faith that is deliberately deceptive in the way it describes itself so as to appear brilliant unto others. You can’t hide the dehumizing elements within bahai. You can’t. And you have refuted nothing on me on progressive revelation.

And Its not that I hate the quran, I hate what the quran stands for. That is the deliberate dehumization of people and deifying of Muhammad a man by all rights was digusting morally and theologically. If you cannot recognise that the quran calls Christians many things and that it inherently contradicts itself, then theres nothing more to say Lord of Goblins. You will refuse to accept the quran and what it says concerning the humanity of Christians and their place while believing it to be true. There is a terrible irony here that you don’t realise. At least the Jihadis understand the quran better than the bahai.

1. Progressive revelation means I dont have to adhere to that statement in the Koran. Just like I dont have to adhere to other brutal statemetns from the old testament like the ones zhang posted.. That IS a refutation. In the same way Jesus denied the sayings of old. I can deny the sayings in teh Koran because I am now inside the Bahai revelation. You have proven yourself not worth talking to Iconodule. Because you cannot even admit something that is staring at you in the face.

2. Yes you are repeating yourself like a broken record..

Iconodule · 10-01-2012, 10:55 PM

Then you must at least admit Goblin (again every time you answer it fails) that at one time Christians were worse than Pigs. That during the authority of the quran which does not exist any more that Christians were worse than all animals, that essentially their slaughter by the muslims was justified because they were not people. And no it is not a refutation. Again I have said that God has ordered the death of amny people, I don't this this. I know God had different covenants, but thats not hte issue here. THe issue is the humanity of a person, namely the Christians. Of which they had none as they are the worst of creatures during the time of muhammad and for 1400 years.

So you have an option here. Either say they are the worst of all creautres now. Or at one time God made them the worst of all creatures. Less than animals.

LordOfGoblins · 10-01-2012, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Then you must at least admit Goblin (again every time you answer it fails) that at one time Christians were worse than Pigs. That during the authority of the quran which does not exist any more that Christians were worse than all animals, that essentially their slaughter by the muslims was justified because they were not people. And no it is not a refutation. Again I have said that God has ordered the death of amny people, I don't this this. I know God had different covenants, but thats not hte issue here. THe issue is the humanity of a person, namely the Christians. Of which they had none as they are the worst of creatures during the time of muhammad and for 1400 years.

So you have an option here. Either say they are the worst of all creautres now. Or at one time God made them the worst of all creatures. Less than animals.

Again. The text is clear. But you choose just to take one statement and ignore the others.
What is your point? Bahais are not told to read into things absolutely. Why are you going in circles to make a Bahai change his methedology and understanding of how the holy books are viewed.
The Bahai methedology is to read things into context. So even that statement can easily be read as a means to help people understand fear of God and for the Christians to know that they should be turning towards the prophet rather than ignoring him.
There are statements in the Koran about women suggesting they are less than men because they should defer to their husbands. But that doesnt mean they have real less value than men do. It is inside the context of that time. Baha'u'llah says man and woman are equal and always were... Thus Bahais know to read things into context. That Muhammad was telling people what they were required to hear.

There are heaps of things in past revelations that seem to point to things that contradict the current Bahai understandings. But man was more primitive Back then. So progressive revelation really does refute you. And telling a Bahai he has to adhere to the stuff in past revelations is quite funny and means you still know little of the faith.

slaves were allowed in the old testament, does that mean God always thought slavery was a good thing?

BruceDLimber · 10-02-2012, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

[A]ll religions are true in bahai, are they not?

No: that's inaccurate.

And it would be truly wonderful if you'd have the courtesy to capitalize our name as a simple matter of respect, as we do for Christianity and other religions!

The Baha'i scriptures state clearly that while most religions are indeed legitimate and of God, a few are not.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Iconodule · 10-02-2012, 11:23 PM

Yes the text is clear, that Christians are the worst of all creatures since they disbelieve and are among the people of the book. The text is clear and you are not disputing this. in fact the only thing you seem to want to do is say that Allah is wrong and that you are right.

But you keep changing your position, at first the quran is realiable and inspired scripture, then it is outdated and not to be followed anymore, and now you insist that it must not be taken seriously or literally. What is it? Why do you keep changing your position in this dialogue? Its the mark of inconsistency that you haven't thought of this verse or issue before. That you are talking without knowledge of this verse in which to ellucidate its meaning. So follow the scripture and stay silent until the correct moment to speak. But I suppose that scripture isn't to be followed either.

And no the text is not merely a suggestion to Christians, its a statement towards Christians on their place and position in the world. That Christians should be subjected and forced to pay the tax with willing submission (as the quran declares).

And no progressive revelation proves nothing, it doesn't prove me wrong. All it demonstrates as you admitted is that there are known contradictions. That God at many times to your understanding has given laws which he changes and sometimes reverses for no seemingly good reason. It was okay for Jews and Christians to drink alcahol, but not Muslims. It was okay for Muslims to conquer lands and place the people of the book under the tax, but bahai are not allowed to do this. It really does show something that you admit there are contradictions. That God has contradicted him. That God of Ali Nuri is decively false.

LordOfGoblins · 10-02-2012, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Yes the text is clear, that Christians are the worst of all creatures since they disbelieve and are among the people of the book. The text is clear and you are not disputing this. in fact the only thing you seem to want to do is say that Allah is wrong and that you are right.

But you keep changing your position, at first the quran is realiable and inspired scripture, then it is outdated and not to be followed anymore, and now you insist that it must not be taken seriously or literally. What is it? Why do you keep changing your position in this dialogue? Its the mark of inconsistency that you haven't thought of this verse or issue before. That you are talking without knowledge of this verse in which to ellucidate its meaning. So follow the scripture and stay silent until the correct moment to speak. But I suppose that scripture isn't to be followed either.

And no the text is not merely a suggestion to Christians, its a statement towards Christians on their place and position in the world. That Christians should be subjected and forced to pay the tax with willing submission (as the quran declares).

And no progressive revelation proves nothing, it doesn't prove me wrong. All it demonstrates as you admitted is that there are known contradictions. That God at many times to your understanding has given laws which he changes and sometimes reverses for no seemingly good reason. It was okay for Jews and Christians to drink alcahol, but not Muslims. It was okay for Muslims to conquer lands and place the people of the book under the tax, but bahai are not allowed to do this. It really does show something that you admit there are contradictions. That God has contradicted him. That God of Ali Nuri is decively false.

I dont keep changing my position. The Bahai position is progressive revelation. And I say this over and over again. But We are not told to read into things absolutely. How many times do I have to say that?
WE ARE TOLD NOT TO READ INTO THINGS ABSOLUTELY.
WE ARE TOLD NOT TO READ INTO THINGS ABSOLUTELY.
WE ARE TOLD NOT TO READ INTO THINGS ABSOLUETELY.
Did God always think slavery acceptable or a good thing? Slavery wasnt prohibited until the Bahai faith.
Did Jesus condemn slavery?
Let me ask you something. What is the point of even talking to you? You dont understand anything about the Bahai perspective at all no matter how many times I try to hammer my point.

LordOfGoblins · 10-02-2012, 11:40 PM

And the only thing you seem to want to do is say THE KORAN SAYS CHRISTIANS ARE THE WORST OF ALL CREATURES RAH RAH RAH WAH WAH WAHHHHHHHH

LordOfGoblins · 10-02-2012, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

And no progressive revelation proves nothing, it doesn't prove me wrong. All it demonstrates as you admitted is that there are known contradictions. That God at many times to your understanding has given laws which he changes and sometimes reverses for no seemingly good reason. decively false.

You are an absolute douche if your still denying this point. All those things from Jesus that I posted and underlined proove this. And you still claim its just my understanding and not boldly painfully obvious from the Words of JEsus own mouth??

everything underlined shows progressive revelation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

Iconodule · 10-02-2012, 11:51 PM

Lord that proves nothing. This is not about the difference between teh covenants. And at last you show your true colours when you insult me. Thats fine though I am after all the worst of all creatures according to allah so calling me such things is not a sin in your religion.

But the point is, that ontological worth of man, of certain is different to your God. And if your explanation is taken seriously and we apply it to this discussion. All you have done, and this is hte point you continueally ignore. That at one time Christians were the worst of all creautres, for 1400 years Christians have been the worst creatures on earth, along with the jews I suspect.

LordOfGoblins · 10-02-2012, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

What is it? Why do you keep changing your position in this dialogue? Its the mark of inconsistency that you haven't thought of this verse or issue before. That you are talking without knowledge of this verse in which to ellucidate its meaning. So follow the scripture and stay silent until the correct moment to speak. But I suppose that scripture isn't to be followed either.
.

The Koran is outdated. The bible is outdated the Torah is outdated. THe Bahai position is that they must be considered in the context of their time.
But you already know this.
DO I pray five times a day like Muslims do? NO I DONT...

LordOfGoblins · 10-02-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Lord that proves nothing. This is not about the difference between teh covenants. And at last you show your true colours when you insult me. Thats fine though I am after all the worst of all creatures according to allah so calling me such things is not a sin in your religion.

But the point is, that ontological worth of man, of certain is different to your God. And if your explanation is taken seriously and we apply it to this discussion. All you have done, and this is hte point you continueally ignore. That at one time Christians were the worst of all creautres, for 1400 years Christians have been the worst creatures on earth, along with the jews I suspect.

This is not about the difference of covenants is like saying this is not about proggressive revelation.

Iconodule · 10-02-2012, 11:56 PM

Lord of goblins, I accepted for the sake of argument your "argument" but you refuse to follow the logic. That if this is accepted, that at one time (not now) Christians were the worst of all creatures. That Muhammad was completely justifiied in commanding Jihads and the muslims that conquered Christian lands were also justified because the ones they conquered were not even truely human.

At one time Chrisitans were the worst of all creautres. Now you will shift your argument once again to saying this cannot be taken literally. Which I believe I have demonstrated false and then you will shift your argument back to it no longer applying (thus giving it ascent again). ITs all a circle to the bahaiisnt it? So saying the quran is outdated, only means that at one time Chrsitians were the worst of all creatuers and that allah gave his asscent to this belief.

LordOfGoblins · 10-02-2012, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Lord of goblins, I accepted for the sake of argument your "argument" but you refuse to follow the logic. That if this is accepted, that at one time (not now) Christians were the worst of all creatures. That Muhammad was completely justifiied in commanding Jihads and the muslims that conquered Christian lands were also justified because the ones they conquered were not even truely human.

At one time Chrisitans were the worst of all creautres. Now you will shift your argument once again to saying this cannot be taken literally. Which I believe I have demonstrated false and then you will shift your argument back to it no longer applying (thus giving it ascent again). ITs all a circle to the bahaiisnt it? So saying the quran is outdated, only means that at one time Chrsitians were the worst of all creatuers and that allah gave his asscent to this belief.

When did I ever say it should be taken literally?
Excuse me? I dont claim to know the will of God and every meaning inside every verse. But Bahais are not told to take things absolutely. I personally see that verse as trying to help people understand the fear of God.
Now you are teling me how I ought to understand verses- that I need to see them in a Christain absolte way which is forcing your morality onto me which is just wrong sir just wrong. Do I tell you how to live your life or how to think? No I dont. Go learn some manners..

09-27-2012, 04:05 PM	#43
Zhang Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: USA Posts: 298	This argument cannot and will not go anywhere. Each of us has our own premise Icon Bible is unchanged word of God. Contradictions can be explained through context. Muslims are Savages Me (and many others) Qur'an Apologist Islam is misconstrued and made evil by Media and crazy Hadiths Muslims are people too --- Do you see how neither side will ever budge? We are both convinced that the other party is crazy. When the Christians invaded Muslim lands they raped and pillaged. When the Muslim conquered Syria they let Christians pray on Sundays in their church. Hmmm. CNN Poll: Last edited by Zhang; 09-27-2012 at 05:22 PM.

09-28-2012, 09:28 PM	#49
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 2,056	How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire! (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 265) Iconodule just wants to stick to one quote and not bring in anythning else. Last edited by LordOfGoblins; 09-28-2012 at 09:32 PM.

09-29-2012, 01:03 PM	#55
Zhang Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: USA Posts: 298	Bleh i'm done, I mean it this time. Just going to try to live up to the image of Muhammad (pbuh) the best I can, I hope my faults do not reflect in any way on the Qur'an. They are my own selfishness, anger, and impatience. Regards, -张 Last edited by Zhang; 09-29-2012 at 01:13 PM.

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09-28-2012, 02:46 AM	#44
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	I leave no room for in-between because I am not convinced there is an inbetween quite frankly and I have yet to be convinced. And this isn’t a retarded theory at all, this seems quite honest when we consider the life of Muhammad, that MEccan suras are quite different in tone and contrast to the Medinen suras. And the concept is quite quranic, that is one of abrogation Surah 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? The question is obvious of course why are Allah’s words that come later more perfect than Allah’s previous words? And I don’t think Muhammad was fickle, at least from what we know of him, it seems to me the historical sources are incredibly inrealiable but they are the only way in which to read the quran at a level with even a hint of understanding. Otherwise the quran is a mess, a book from which no consistent meaning can be grasped. So the life of the prophet it revolved around, or supposebly revolved around is of key importance in its interpretation, despite the bahai who would rather ignore the hadiths and traditions or the quranist. But the problem is Lord of Goblins, that these are conflicting statements, and theres no way to exclude Christians from the category of the worst of all creatures. At one time the quran says we are saved, despite our obvious and blasphemous shirk. Allah literally despises those who commit shirk. Of course our theology is not shirk, but from an Islamic point of view or even a quranic it very much is if Jesus is viewed as a mere creature which you don’t seem to consider him. But this continuous label of fundamentalist Christianity confuses me, not only because Orthodoxy is the furthest thing away from fundamentalism you could imagine, but that in simply presenting a view that is contrary to your own. You get emotional, the need to project as it were. Maybe you are the bahai fundamentalist who cannot face the truth. Then again all religions are true in bahai are they not? At least that’s what some bahai want to teach, but I think you know better than that Lord. You don’t find it reprehensible to say another human being is the worst of all creatures? That some human beings are literally worse than pigs? And yes there is a difference between the condemnation of Jesus and the condemnation of the quran, Jesus never dehumunized anyone, only told them that they were liars and hypocrites ultimately in the vein of Satan. The quran makes some human beings worse than pigs. But if you have no problem with it, please tell me that you consider me the worst of all creatures, because I glorify Christ Jesus as God almighty, one of the holy trinity. The reason for salvation and the Hope of the resurrection. Theres are least five heresies there from a bahai standpoint. Please do the consistent thing and say I am the worst of all creatures, that I am a blasphemer (as per the quran). Though I doubt you will do it, because bahai are not consistent. And Pete, in criticising bahai I may or may not mention my Christianity. If you want to learn why Christianity is right then perhaps there are other places, but that isn’t my concern right now. I see also that Zhang has made some typical strawmen remarks that don’t actually represent what I believe at all. Zhang I’m beginning to find this typical of you. I said the Islamic world are savages, the sharia of islam and Muhammad is ungodly and I should dare say evil. I condemn this but you even if a bahai were being persecuted right in front of you I dare say would call out the muslim on this point and say what they are doing is evil. In contrast to your statement you won’t judge anyone. Or am I wrong? Muslims are people yes, and there are muslims that have adopted a Christian sensibility in commanding themselves, throwing way the muslim ethic of Muhammad and his successors. The Islamic world hasn’t and while they are people, Nazi Germany was also composed of people, as was Atheistic Russia. Doesn’t mean they deserve to be thought of as totally good. Hey maybe I should make a bad 13 minute video about the life of Muhammad and let the good Islamic world rationally critique its poor quality while recognising many of the scenes are actually from their own traditions. I bet the Islamic world would tolerate that. And that you think the Media makes Islam evil I find hilarious especially when the media goes to its extreme to depict islam as Good. But yes, of course it was the evil Christians who invaded. We can’t forget that. But lets not also forget that it was military islam that had a successive campaign which invaded the west, taking over Christian countries, Spain, Egypt, Byzantium and north Africa. We can’t forget that the pilgrims were at one point forbidden from entering Jeruselum. No no, evil Christians. Oh and we can blame all Christianity for the crusades of the western Christians, despite the fact during the fourth crusade the Latins invaded Constantinople violated their nuns/women, Icons, Holy relics, treasury, murdered and the like for three days. When the Muslims invaded Byzantium they stole the Hagia Sophia and the most holy churches and desecrated them by having Muslims pray and plaster of the icons in them. Zhang if you are going to be so bias and totally callous in your historical analysis then be prepared to eat the history of 1400 years of barbarism.

09-28-2012, 04:58 AM	#47
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 2,056	Iconodule. Maybe being a Christian you are not familar with the Bahai concept of heaven and hell. Heaven is the degree to which you are close to God. There are many different levels of closeness. Its not just black and white close and far...

09-29-2012, 02:26 AM	#50
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	No, I don't want a pat on the bck, I find your honesty in considering me the worst of all creatures quite refreshing from the standard Bahai nonsense of politcal correctness. You unlike the modern bahai will actually do the thing your faith commands you, call out Christians for their abject heresy, tell them they are the worst of all creatures for their shirk, that they were not of God. This is truely astonishing as I did not think a Bahai was capable of this. You have proven me wrong. But I know according to the quran I am damned, that there is no chance I can live in the sight of God, that I could be in communion with God. Of which I am fine with, because the God of Muhammad is not my God, the God of Bahai is an entity as far away as possible from Christ. I have no qualm with this. I recognise the theology and that it is just being honest to say such things. Im not poltically correct, im not the theological subjectivist, if I were I would be a bahai (That is the bahai who isn't clear on things) or a Liberal Anglican. But I beg to differ on your quote from the quran. it says those who believe, obviously this is talking about those who believe in allah. I do not. I reject Allah and Allah has rejected me as a heretic, a blasphemer the worst of all creatures. I am not just far from God in islam, I am set apart by an ocean of lava, air of LPG and Im a cripple on top of it. That is if we take the bahai understanding. I must say after seeing some of the hadiths and reading the quran's description hell very much seems like a place typically depcited in western cartoons and tv as the Christian hell, of course I think they get the Christian hell wrong.

09-29-2012, 02:45 AM	#52
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Yes, I think that is your right and perogative to do so (Though right does not indicate one ought to, from my perspective, an orthodox Christian perspective to say anyone is less than an animal is an insult to God and hte divine image he has gifted each and ever person). If God is all knowing, if God is all Good. His statements cannot possibly be false or immoral. Thus if you are true, you are justified in saying Christians are the worst of all creatures because they have so far deviated from God. And What I found refreshing in your now obviously sarcastic comment, was that you were willing to stand by the quran. You were willing to not whitewash the clear sentiment that the quran consistently portrays against those who disbelieve and commit shirk. But it seems you aren't ready to make that step, that very rational and justified step (assuming you are right of course) in saying such things. At the very least you cannot deny we are the worst of all creatures, even if you won't openly admit it. Nor could you condemn the muslim who calls us the worst of all creatures. (and yeah I've had that happen many a time). But the facts are clear. The worst of all creature are disbelievers (Which Christians are) Blasphemers are those who would associate partners or make men equal to Allah (which Christians do, though obviously not in the context of their own theology). That Allah loves not those who reject faith, which the Christians do. We fit all the categories for being the msot despised people in the quran. The Jews are obviously better than us because they are unitarians and I might go as far to say that even the atheist who does not believe in Allah might be higher because they don't associate anyone with Allah. Its all about putting hte pieces together.

09-29-2012, 12:47 PM	#54
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Interesting that you would obviously be going to some sort of Evilbible dot com website for those references. Though I have no problem with these quotes because they represent the law for Israel. Not the law for everyone. Specifically the law for old covenant Israel and to suggest they are still in tact or still to be practiced shows a fundamental lack of understanding between the Old and new covenant. Obviously those can only apply to Israel, within Israel. These laws were for the protection and holiness of Israel. They were not like Muhammad’s commands for mass Jihad and conquering of all nations, the Israelites had a land and that was their land. But none of those verses dehumize or make people worse than creatures, it just states the punishment for certain actions, IE death. But I didn’t quotemine Zhang. You seem incapable of even considering the things I have said, that there is a complexity to the quran you just cannot grasp because of your bahai faith. Why can’t you simply admit Christians are blasphemers, the worst of all creatures, That god does not love them. And the fact God does not love them within the bahai faith is easily demonstrated by the fact that Christ abandoned his body without word or warning when Muhammad came along. And your constant strawmen attacks on me about my beliefs concerning hell are dishonest and quite frankly immoral. You don’t know my theology when it comes to heaven and hell, yet you constantly want to force the typical western image of hell on to me. This is not good Zhang. This is immoral what you are doing. ' But the thing is, you quote a book you supposebly believe in. Do you actually believe, as I do that God at that time commanded the death of certain members of society? I doubt you do. Likewise you will not accept what the quran says concerning Christians and false believers.

09-29-2012, 01:59 PM	#56
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Better marry a nine year old fast before she grows up. Then consumate the marraige at 11.

09-29-2012, 02:46 PM	#57
Zhang Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: USA Posts: 298	Okay, thanks for the advice! God bless -张

09-29-2012, 06:15 PM	#60
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	So the quran is not a holy writing to you that is absolutely right and perfect? But let me ask you is the muslim justified in saying this of the Christian? It seems then they must. But in not calling the worst of all Creatures you think the quran is wrong, in not considering me a blasphemer you think the quran is wrong. If you think allah loves me, then you think the quran is wrong. And that just my point. The bahai have tied themselves to these books which fundamentally go against everything they standfor. Be it the gospel of John which says Christ created everything that began to exist. Or the quran which calls Christians people worse than animals.

09-30-2012, 11:36 AM	#63
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Okay and this refutes me how? Jesus nowhere dehumizes people. He nowhere declares people less than animals like your God does. So pointing out the differences between covenants old and New, in no way refutes my saying. nor does it lessen the abject evil of the quran to declare one of God's creation worse than animal. You don't find it disgusting do? And this progressive revelation excuse simply doesn't cut it. Because this then means at one time CHRISTIANS WERE WORSE THAN PIGS, admit this, simply be honest as a bahai and say yes at one time God considered the Christians blasphemers and worse than pigs. Be honest as a bahai, I know its hard but you have to admit this. Every type of justification you give, comes up short in the end. And theres a reason for this. Because you know the quran is right to call Christians worse than Pigs.

10-01-2012, 10:44 PM	#67
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	The Jehovahs witnesses are radically innovative in terms of their theology, that is they accept a more arrian theology. Thus they are not Christians because they have fundamentally gone astray from the faith, even the bahai must accept this. Because the Jehovah’s Witnesses did not exist before this modern era and the quran tells that the true followers of Christ would be victorius. Thus the Bahai cannot claim that the Jehovah’s witnesses represent a form of Christianity. Neither can the historian in my opinion. Now Lord of Goblins, since you suggest the text is clear enough and you refuse to give any sort of interpretation of it. Then I must conclude based on that you truly do along with the muslims and other bahai that the Christians are the worst of all believers. This is all I really want the bahai to admit. Its not about arguing its about asking honesty of a faith that is deliberately deceptive in the way it describes itself so as to appear brilliant unto others. You can’t hide the dehumizing elements within bahai. You can’t. And you have refuted nothing on me on progressive revelation. And Its not that I hate the quran, I hate what the quran stands for. That is the deliberate dehumization of people and deifying of Muhammad a man by all rights was digusting morally and theologically. If you cannot recognise that the quran calls Christians many things and that it inherently contradicts itself, then theres nothing more to say Lord of Goblins. You will refuse to accept the quran and what it says concerning the humanity of Christians and their place while believing it to be true. There is a terrible irony here that you don’t realise. At least the Jihadis understand the quran better than the bahai.

10-01-2012, 10:55 PM	#69
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Then you must at least admit Goblin (again every time you answer it fails) that at one time Christians were worse than Pigs. That during the authority of the quran which does not exist any more that Christians were worse than all animals, that essentially their slaughter by the muslims was justified because they were not people. And no it is not a refutation. Again I have said that God has ordered the death of amny people, I don't this this. I know God had different covenants, but thats not hte issue here. THe issue is the humanity of a person, namely the Christians. Of which they had none as they are the worst of creatures during the time of muhammad and for 1400 years. So you have an option here. Either say they are the worst of all creautres now. Or at one time God made them the worst of all creatures. Less than animals.

10-02-2012, 11:23 PM	#72
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Yes the text is clear, that Christians are the worst of all creatures since they disbelieve and are among the people of the book. The text is clear and you are not disputing this. in fact the only thing you seem to want to do is say that Allah is wrong and that you are right. But you keep changing your position, at first the quran is realiable and inspired scripture, then it is outdated and not to be followed anymore, and now you insist that it must not be taken seriously or literally. What is it? Why do you keep changing your position in this dialogue? Its the mark of inconsistency that you haven't thought of this verse or issue before. That you are talking without knowledge of this verse in which to ellucidate its meaning. So follow the scripture and stay silent until the correct moment to speak. But I suppose that scripture isn't to be followed either. And no the text is not merely a suggestion to Christians, its a statement towards Christians on their place and position in the world. That Christians should be subjected and forced to pay the tax with willing submission (as the quran declares). And no progressive revelation proves nothing, it doesn't prove me wrong. All it demonstrates as you admitted is that there are known contradictions. That God at many times to your understanding has given laws which he changes and sometimes reverses for no seemingly good reason. It was okay for Jews and Christians to drink alcahol, but not Muslims. It was okay for Muslims to conquer lands and place the people of the book under the tax, but bahai are not allowed to do this. It really does show something that you admit there are contradictions. That God has contradicted him. That God of Ali Nuri is decively false.

10-02-2012, 11:40 PM	#74
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 2,056	And the only thing you seem to want to do is say THE KORAN SAYS CHRISTIANS ARE THE WORST OF ALL CREATURES RAH RAH RAH WAH WAH WAHHHHHHHH

10-02-2012, 11:51 PM	#76
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Lord that proves nothing. This is not about the difference between teh covenants. And at last you show your true colours when you insult me. Thats fine though I am after all the worst of all creatures according to allah so calling me such things is not a sin in your religion. But the point is, that ontological worth of man, of certain is different to your God. And if your explanation is taken seriously and we apply it to this discussion. All you have done, and this is hte point you continueally ignore. That at one time Christians were the worst of all creautres, for 1400 years Christians have been the worst creatures on earth, along with the jews I suspect.

10-02-2012, 11:56 PM	#79
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 851	Lord of goblins, I accepted for the sake of argument your "argument" but you refuse to follow the logic. That if this is accepted, that at one time (not now) Christians were the worst of all creatures. That Muhammad was completely justifiied in commanding Jihads and the muslims that conquered Christian lands were also justified because the ones they conquered were not even truely human. At one time Chrisitans were the worst of all creautres. Now you will shift your argument once again to saying this cannot be taken literally. Which I believe I have demonstrated false and then you will shift your argument back to it no longer applying (thus giving it ascent again). ITs all a circle to the bahaiisnt it? So saying the quran is outdated, only means that at one time Chrsitians were the worst of all creatuers and that allah gave his asscent to this belief.