Stop derailing threads pls...

[LordOfGoblins]

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

yes it can be true. The Bahai faith only abolished prisests for this revelation.
The verse is just saying that those who recognise God are the best off and those who dont are the worst off. Now worst off is a harsh terminology but those are the words needed for the arabs. It is in plain and simple terms.
That is what people needed to hear to understand fear of God that if you dont recognise a manifestation of God you are the worst off.
The next verse is this.

Sahih International
Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.
98:8

Their reward with Allah will be gardens of perpetual residence beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them and they with Him. That is for whoever has feared his Lord.

---------
Now this is one bad negative verse compared to the other good ones about Christians that I already posted which you choose to ignore.
agenda against Islam much??

THis was my first quote to you.
Notice How I said It is to help people understand the fear of God. But see you dont listen. You just ignore people and pursue your own agenda

[Iconodule]

Lord the verse is clear as you said yourself. It describes the place of Christians. And this isn't unique in the quran, it describes the place of many people. THe People of the book for instance are to be willingly subserviant to the Muslim communities and pay a special tax. And no, Im simply interpreting the text, as many muslims do, who regaurd Christians as filhy vile disgusting creatures, pigs. This is a common thing amongst muslims, at least those who take the quran seriously I find.

But no, this verse describes our place in the world. And notice that you say its outdated whenever I bring up this point. then you change your position that it only exists to help Christians realise they need to come to allah. But I will give you a compromise, that may be a valid interpration, but clearly also within it, is the place of Christianis at the same time when they do not accept Muhammad. (God forbid anyone accept him).

[LordOfGoblins]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Lord the verse is clear as you said yourself. It describes the place of Christians. And this isn't unique in the quran, it describes the place of many people. THe People of the book for instance are to be willingly subserviant to the Muslim communities and pay a special tax. And no, Im simply interpreting the text, as many muslims do, who regaurd Christians as filhy vile disgusting creatures, pigs. This is a common thing amongst muslims, at least those who take the quran seriously I find.

But no, this verse describes our place in the world. And notice that you say its outdated whenever I bring up this point. then you change your position that it only exists to help Christians realise they need to come to allah. But I will give you a compromise, that may be a valid interpration, but clearly also within it, is the place of Christianis at the same time when they do not accept Muhammad. (God forbid anyone accept him).

FROM THE VERY FIRST POST THAT WAS MY POSITION.
why dont you actually try reading what people write for once?

[Iconodule]

Oh so please Lord before i go ot work (1 minute) say for us all that Christians were the worst of all believers. Say it. That at one time that statement in the quran is true. You won't because you never agreed to it in a serious non sarcastic manner.

[LordOfGoblins]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Oh so please Lord before i go ot work (1 minute) say for us all that Christians were the worst of all believers. Say it. That at one time that statement in the quran is true. You won't because you never agreed to it in a serious non sarcastic manner.

Having this debate/ discussion with you has highlighted to my naive mind that there is no point talking with you really...
Its nothing against you as a person. You just are unable to see otherview points. And Even when you do understand where the person is coming from you will never concede that their opinion has value or truth. Ever...
have a nice day.

[Iconodule]

Sigh, you say that you have made your position clear. Yet you will neither deny or affirm the ontological value of Christians either now or in the time of Muhammad. Either way I don't care.

[LordOfGoblins]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Sigh, you say that you have made your position clear. Yet you will neither deny or affirm the ontological value of Christians either now or in the time of Muhammad. Either way I don't care.

If you dont care then why do you pester me to admit that Christians are the worst of all creatures for 10+ posts? That doesnt sound like someone who is detached and allows another person room to breath and have their own understandings and form their own opinions.
But is it my job to deny or confirm the value of Christians? Is that my role in this life? I suppose you view your role as someone who judges the value of people in other religions, which is why you see yourself as a fit authority to go around condemning Bahais or whoever else.

[Iconodule]

Lord of goblins as a bahai I thought you would answer honestly. But you will not. You will not even say Christians are of equal ontological value to others. Which tells me that you give some grain of thought to the quran and what it says in dehumizing people. And I only condemn bahai doctrines Lord of Goblins, and when I see Bahai constnatly avoid the question and attack the questioner.

[LordOfGoblins]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Lord of goblins as a bahai I thought you would answer honestly. But you will not. You will not even say Christians are of equal ontological value to others. Which tells me that you give some grain of thought to the quran and what it says in dehumizing people. And I only condemn bahai doctrines Lord of Goblins, and when I see Bahai constnatly avoid the question and attack the questioner.

I did answer honestly. How do you know that Im not being honest? Did God tell you I was lying? THose are my honest thoughts and opinions. See this is why I say it is a waste of time talking to you. All those posts I spent trying to shew you my understanding/ the Bahai understanding and at the end of it all you accuse me of being a liar.
Now I dont attack you Iconodule, and If I do poke at you now and again it is only out of frustration. I have never attacked your brand of Christianity or condmened it. But you are regularly attacking the Bahai faith as well as its prophet with slurs and incorrect spellings..

So I ask you is it my role in this life to confirm or deny the value of Christians?

[Emilia]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

You unlike the modern bahai will actually do the thing your faith commands you, call out Christians for their abject heresy, tell them they are the worst of all creatures for their shirk, that they were not of God.

Funny what the actual Writings actually command us to do is to: "Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship."

But hey, don't let anyone confuse you with facts. *sigh*

Cause going around finger pointing and calling others heretics is really....fellowshippy.

But I know according to the quran I am damned, that there is no chance I can live in the sight of God, that I could be in communion with God.

And if I fixate on one verse in the Bible and don't read it in the context of the whole Scripture, I guess all our works are filthy rags so....why bother trying to be righteous even? I mean, God just thinks it's all filthy rags so just give up and party! Whatevs!

See, that can work with anyone's scripture. Even yours. All one has to do is make a choice to read it with amazing myopia and a pre-formed opinion of what the meaning is.

[Iconodule]

Lord the fact that you aren't answering, by either denying it or affirming it is evidence of you not answering the question. The question is this.

Are Christians the worst of all creatures?

Or

Were the Christians at one time the worst of all creatures?

Answer this for me and be clear about it.

[Iconodule]

Now Ellin, my works may be as filthy rags by themselves but with Christ and his saving passion they are illuminated vestments. But the point in me quoting the quran is twofold, either the bahai accept it or they accept it and reject its current authority, in which case we have two options. Either the Christians are the worst of all creatures currently, or they were at one point. Its a simple thing to grasp. But that your writings fundamentally contradict the quran itself which tells believers do not take the jews or Christians as friends as they are friends to another. Thats just something I would point out.

[LordOfGoblins]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Lord the fact that you aren't answering, by either denying it or affirming it is evidence of you not answering the question. The question is this.

Are Christians the worst of all creatures?

Or

Were the Christians at one time the worst of all creatures?

Answer this for me and be clear about it.

why should I?
I explained all my understandings for 10+ posts and all you can do is call me a liar at the end of it.

[tonyfish58]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Lord the fact that you aren't answering, by either denying it or affirming it is evidence of you not answering the question. The question is this.

Are Christians the worst of all creatures?

Or

Were the Christians at one time the worst of all creatures?

Answer this for me and be clear about it.

No one can judge another,if I reflect on what the writings of all Faiths may say on this matter, the worst of all creatures could be the Divines in the age of a Manifestation who reject and persecute the Prophet. They are supposed to be the leaders of Men but instead lead men to utter debasement.

Regards Tony

[Iconodule]

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

why should I?
I explained all my understandings for 10+ posts and all you can do is call me a liar at the end of it.

Then you prove my point. You won't answer the question. Which leaves me to suggest you are embarressed by your answer, that or you just don't care. Either way, alot is revealed.

[LordOfGoblins]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Lord the fact that you aren't answering, by either denying it or affirming it is evidence of you not answering the question. The question is this.

Are Christians the worst of all creatures?

Or

Were the Christians at one time the worst of all creatures?

Answer this for me and be clear about it.

Let me ask you something. Is it the words that ellude to the spirit or is it the spirit that alludes to the words?
You seem to worship the words as the spirit themselves. But the words are not the spirit. The words allude to spiritual truth. That is why you continue to fail. You take one verse and regard it as capturing the spirit rather than seeing it as something that alludes to the spirit. That is the difference between Bahai and your mentality. Your absolutism means you think each word has the spirit attached to it. But the spirit goes outside of words. Words are a limited vehicle that exits in the human world. There is no words in the spiritual world of God.
So stop. Stop this worshiping of words and denying of spirit.
Just stop. Stop it.

[Iconodule]

Originally Posted by tonyfish58

No one can judge another,if I reflect on what the writings of all Faiths may say on this matter, the worst of all creatures could be the Divines in the age of a Manifestation who reject and persecute the Prophet. They are supposed to be the leaders of Men but instead lead men to utter debasement.

Regards Tony

Christ (not God to you bahai) will judge you in the end, as he says. But thats besides the point. But the worst of all believers are made clear in the passage tony. That is they are specifically the people of the book who have rejected the faith. And this is a declarative statement on the position of such people. or are to not consider the following verse in contrast that says the believers are the best of all people? The emphasis is clear here even on an allegorical reading of it. Some people are ontologically worth more than others.

Also, I will stop taking words seriously when I get drill into my head.

[tonyfish58]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Christ (not God to you bahai) will judge you in the end, as he says. But thats besides the point.

Not really - God is our Judge not man - Thus IMHO Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah will be there to sort out our deeds when we breath our last on earth.

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Some people are ontologically worth more than others.

IMHO in Gods eyes we are all worth the same, His compassion is open to all of us. In the Bahai writings even the greatest sinner is offered forgiveness - Here is an explanation

This priest, Áqá Najafi, had committed the unforgivable sin: he had violated the Covenant and blasphemed against the Holy Spirit; that is, he had hated, not the lamp, not the Prophet of God as an individual -- from ignorance, or because he did not recognize Him -- but the light itself, the perfections of God which the Prophet reflects; he had hated the light in the lamp -- and "this detestation of the light has no remedy . . . "

This priest was, then, the most hopeless of sinners. His evil found expression in many ways, and among them was this, that with his pupils, he kicked at and trampled the martyred body of Mírzá Ashraf, in Isfáhán (not the Ashraf of whom we read in Gleanings, Siyyid Ashraf, whose head was cut off in Zanján).

And yet, Bahá'u'lláh begins this Tablet with a prayer of repentance for Áqá Najafi to recite. He offers this breaker of the Covenant forgiveness; just as, in His Most Holy Book, He offers forgiveness to Mírzá Yahyá, the treacherous half-brother who tried to destroy him. This offering is a demonstration of 'Badá' -- of the principle of the free operation of the Will of God, Who doeth whatsoever He willeth and shall not be asked of His doings. It proves how mistaken is that large group of human beings who believe that everything is on a mechanical basis -- that this much sin brings this much punishment, and so much good buys so much reward. To them, God is a blind force, operating mechanically -- something like the third rail in the subway. They themselves, however, would greatly resent being called a blind force. (The Báb develops this principle of 'Badá' in the Persian Bayán.) Link - Bahá'u'lláh's <i>Epistle to the Son of the Wolf


Regards Tony

[Iconodule]

No, tony Christ is the judge. You believe in the gospels right? Bahais claim to believe in the words of Christ right? He is very clear that all power and authority is given to the son and also judgement (which of course follows all authority).


New International Version John 5:22

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

Unless Jesus lied here.

And tony you can quote your writings all you want, all this serves to show is that God in the bahai faith has changed his mind, or not really at all. That this priest who could have abandoned Christ for Ali Nuri is that either Christians were at one time the worst of all creatures (before ali Nuri) or that they are still until they are forgiven and made bahai.

The problem in every scenario still exists.

[tonyfish58]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

No, tony Christ is the judge. You believe in the gospels right? Bahais claim to believe in the words of Christ right? He is very clear that all power and authority is given to the son and also judgement (which of course follows all authority).


New International Version John 5:22

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

Unless Jesus lied here.

And tony you can quote your writings all you want, all this serves to show is that God in the bahai faith has changed his mind, or not really at all. That this priest who could have abandoned Christ for Ali Nuri is that either Christians were at one time the worst of all creatures (before ali Nuri) or that they are still until they are forgiven and made bahai.

The problem in every scenario still exists.

God does what He will

The problems of interpretation are for us to solve

So you must decide - Inclusive or Exclusive as far as Christ is concerned. I beleive in Christ. How I beleive is up to me.

Regards Tony

[LordOfGoblins]

Originally Posted by Iconodule

No, tony Christ is the judge. You believe in the gospels right? Bahais claim to believe in the words of Christ right? He is very clear that all power and authority is given to the son and also judgement (which of course follows all authority).


New International Version John 5:22

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

Unless Jesus lied here.



The problem in every scenario still exists.

That just means (in my understnading) that in each revelation the manifestations of God are the standard of setting the weat from the chuff.
So people approach God through the manifestations as a vehicle to get to know God.

14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It is likened unto this verse.

Were anyone to wash the feet of all mankind, and
were he to worship God in the forests, valleys, and
mountains, upon high hills and lofty peaks, to leave no
rock or tree, no clod of earth, but was a witness to his
worship -- yet, should the fragrance of My good
pleasure not be inhaled from him, his works would
never be acceptable unto God.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 31)

Just got to stop worshipiing words and try to see the spirit.