Timothy248

My fiancee was raised with a very strongly christian mother. I want her to become Baha'i so that we can both be part of the Baha'i community, have unified beliefs, and so our childrens beliefs aren't divided.

However her mother believes Baha'i is a false religion, and has convinced my fiancee this as well because Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth, and the life' and many other similar quotes, implying that he is the only way to god, and that when he returns he will be exactly the same, same name, same body etc. I tried to explain to them that the I he is referring to is a highly perfected manifestation of god that can come under different names, and in different bodies, however they don't understand.

Can anyone suggest a way that I could convince my fiancee that Baha'i is a true religion? Relevant quotes from the bible would be very effective. She likes the religion of Baha'i a lot, the way they don't discriminate other religions and the Baha'i people we've met so far, but she's afraid that if she believes in Baha'ullah she won't go to heaven.

InvestigateTruth

Hello Timothy,

Would be your wife interested in joining this Forum?

Iconodule

I thought bahai were forbidden to proslytise? Is this not true anymore? And she is wise to fear falling into belief of Ali Nuri. Christ is sufficient, Ali Nuri gives no salvation.

tonyfish58

I feel it would be better that you live by example for your wife and only talk about religion if asked. Also pray about it and leave it to her & God.

You can not convert any body, you can only suggest a path is asked.

The second Hidden Word is about personal belief

"O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes".

It will all work out

Regards Tony

Timothy248

Thanks for your replies, I will be less forceful and let the decision occur naturally.

Thanks but no, she doesn't enjoy into intellectual spiritual discussion.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timothy248 [My fiancee's] mother believes Baha'i is a false religion, and has convinced my fiancee this as well because Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth, and the life' ...

A good place to start might be to point out to her that this passage is hardly unique!

Most--if not all--of the scriptures of the great religions contain similair statements!

I quote:


THE ONLY WAY

1. “This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.”
2. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
3. “Whoso seeks guidance elsewhere, God will lead him astray.”
4. “He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from all that is on earth and seek none else but Me.”
5. “Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter.”
6. “There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of Heaven, of light and of purity, of the infinite Creator.”


(in fact, this is part of a longer quiz in which you're supposed to guess which scriptures said which quote. I'll post the answers below.)

And BTW, please remember that Baha'is don't "convert" people! We simply explain our teachings, make our scriptures available, and answer any questions. What others do with this information is strictly up to them.

Best regards, :-)

Bruce






--ANSWERS TO "THE ONLY WAY" QUIZ --

1. Buddhism, Dhammapada 20:274
2. Christianity, John 14:6
3. Islam, Imam ‘Ali Hadith
4. Baha’i, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, p. 169
5. Hinduism, Bhagavad Gita 18:66
6. Zoroastrianism, Gathas, Yasna 45:5 and 51:2

Iconodule

Why are you bahais encouraging him to sin by proslytising?

arthra

One of the issues you have is that you and your fiancee hope to marry some day... and that being a Baha'i marriage.. or a Baha'i marrying an non-Baha'i perhaps. Of course you should be respectful of her beliefs and not pressure her...otherwise you'll end up where her mother will probably be antagonistic of you and not approve the marriage.

My advise would be not to let religion become an issue between you. If you truly love her respect her beliefs and let her come to her own conclusions in her own way.

Timothy248

Iconodule, a true follower of Christ wouldn't spend their time demeaning other religions so rudely, your only making a fool of yourself.

Emilia

I think this is the wisest course, Timothy. Also, beware of being too attached to results with your fiancee. She may never convert, and if that's what you really want in a spouse, you might need to look elsewhere. Time will tell.

I married my husband when he was an agnostic and was prepared for the possibility he would remain an agnostic, or possibly even return to the Catholicism he was raised with.

If I couldn't live with either of those possibilities, I would not have married him, much love notwithstanding.

As it turns out it took around 18 years of marriage (that would be 22 years of knowing each other) for him to become a Baha'i.

Oh, and your possibly future mother in law and her strident opposition to your faith. Um, we had no issues like that, but let's say that moving 800 miles away from our families was a good thing for our marriage for some other reasons.

Iconodule

Timothy Christ demeaned the faith of the pharisees as legalists. The ones who knew the apostles decried the gnostics. AS did saint Paul to those who deny the ressurection.

Timothy248

That's true but you aren't Jesus or Saint Paul, you don't have the authority to take such a judgmental position righteously.

In those days the Jews denied Christ because his appearance didn't align with their interpretation of the Jewish scripture, what makes you so confident that you aren't repeating their behavior? Isn't a good religion identified by its fruits? The Baha'i people I have met are lovely and their beliefs flow with the world we live in, whereas the Christians I have met harbor a dark resentment internally with a world where their beliefs are becoming less and less in tune.

aji

Timothy - I'm also married to a non-Baha'i, and although we are united in all aspects of life, I do wish she would embrace the Faith as well. But this is a decision each person must make on their own accord.

The best thing we can do to help them along is to work on ourselves. To strive to be so steadfast and diligent in reflecting the light of Baha'u'llah that through our deeds, patience and praiseworth character the hearts of the people in our lives will be subdued. The essence of religion as Abdu'l-Baha teaches is "fewness of words and abundance of deeds".

We should never underestimate the power of the Word of God and its transformative effect on ourselves and the people around us. Remember, some of the heros and heroines of our Faith (May Maxwell, Thomas Breakwell) had parents with similar outlooks to your Fiance's mother.... at least at first.

Iconodule

I believe I do have the authority to call out what I see as blatant falsehood and that everyone has this authority to some extent. This doesn't mean I will seek to force anything on another as I view that genuine change must come from a genuine heart wanting to change. But you would have me embrace this idea that we are not to criticise? Not to call out falsehood? Not to say when things are innappropiate? A poltiically correct world is not worth living in, because truth is forbidden for maintaining the peace.

Timothy248

I agree that criticism has its place, but excessive criticism is unhealthy for yourself and others. But I won't discuss this with you any longer, I won't sink to your level.

LordOfGoblins

because you are not Lord Jesus who is "the way the truth the life", you are just a normal guy. SO you have no more truth inside or have the authority to know what truth is than Joe off the street. But you probably spend a lot more time condeming than Joe does..
Two people both argue because they think they both have the truth. That is what causes wars and conflicts..

GenuineSeeker

Another derailed thread. Iconodule becomes the center of attention.

Everyone who speaks to him is feeding him.

As long as you engage, he will stay.

I came here to learn about the Baha'i Faith. It seems almost every thread gets off track with I.'s attempt to show he knows more than anyone here and then Baha'is trying to reason with him, then some getting frustrated because they can't. It seems he has one agenda: to prove his version of Christianity is "the truth" and no other.

I think he likes the attention here.

Who knows? Maybe one day he will believe what you teach. Something is drawing him here; otherwise, he would be conversing with Christians on a Christian forum. They could all talk about how they are right and every other religion is wrong. But, something tells me he could find plenty of ways to debate doctrine there, as well, unless he has been banned from some of them.

Emilia

Good point, GenuineSeeker.

Maybe we can get back to the OP?

I've had more than a few discussions over the years about (proposed) interfaith marriages where one or more parents were just dead set against it.

Consider the Baha'i law requiring couples to have consent from all living parents has a certain wisdom to it, though when consent is refused obviously it's not so easy to just accept. But the wisdom is that where a parent really cannot at all deal with the child marrying someone of another faith, it's quite likely the parent will cause division and the marriage may not last. Most particularly once any grandchildren show up.

I think as you get more serious in this relationship as long as you are careful to explain Baha'i law about consent well. And obviously say prayers. Whatever happens will be the wisest choice, even though you may not see the wisdom for years and years.

I say this as someone sorta old, (50s) but it has really surprised me looking back how many things I found so hard to accept at the time that turned out to be...blessings really.

Best of luck to you both, however things work out.

Timothy248

Thanks for the helpful and hope filled posts Emilia, our relationship is still strong without her being a Baha'i, so its will be OK.

GenuineSeeker

Timothy, I understand your desire for your household to be united, but I agree with Tony that living your love by example is the best course. She must be free to choose for herself without undue expectations.

I think it is also reasonable to anticipate that she would want your/her children to be brought up in her religion. It sounds like her mother would insist upon it. You may want to think about how you would deal with that before you marry because it will certainly become an issue if you oppose it.

It is always a healthy thing to dialogue before marriage and listen to her thoughts also regarding whether she is open to the children being brought up in both faiths. If, as you stated in your original post, she believes the Faith is a false religion now, you have to, unfortunately, think about these things, and plan accordingly.

I thought this quote from a book I bought recently from a Baha'i bookstore would apply to your question:
65: IT IS ONE OF THE ESSENTIAL TEACHINGS OF THE FAITH THAT UNITY SHOULD BE…

It is one of the essential teachings of the Faith that unity should be maintained in the home. Of course this does not mean that any member of the family has a right to influence the faith of any other member; and if this is realized by all the members, then it seems certain that unity would be feasible.
(6 July 1952) [65] Extract from a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to Individual Believers

I wish you happiness and a wonderful future

ruby

Why would you enter into a marriage, expecting you have any right at all to convert your partner. You marry someone because you accept them as they are. In fact, it would be highly offensive to any individual to have their beliefs and rights dismissed, by a partner who considers it their place to exert their influence over another person.

Magi728

It Is Not My Intent to get off topic again...but I am new here...And this I See Needs to be Said....And it goes out to ... Iconodule...

There is a Huge Difference...in Proslytising....And having Spiritual Fellowship....With one another....And the Difference is...Ones * Intent *....


Does One Intend to Respect Another....Or to Cause division and confusion....
in those seeking spiritual fellowship...in Love for one another....?

And to Timothy...I Say....Follow your Heart..

Magi.......

Magi728

Iconodule

A Passage....to Ponder...

Hebrews 13:2
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares....




With Love,


Magi.......

Magi728

Back on Topic...Timothy248....

[ My fiancee was raised with a very strongly christian mother ]


A Passage Suggestion to Show Them Both...While Having Spiritual Fellowship together.....Allowing them the Freedom to... Let them Ponder...


Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him
* My New Name *




Magi.......

Emilia

It worked better for my relationship with my Mom when I reminded her that Christ said a good tree does not produce bad fruit. Then I asked her to examine my life and please explain what bad fruit I was producing.

Not really oddly I guess, but my husband's side of the family was no problem. As it turns out my husband's aunt the Sister had attended firesides years ago in Amherst Mass. so the Baha'is were no strangers to her and she alleviated any concerns the family had.

Fadl

Magi,

Might I suggest that you use more standard punctuation in your posts? I'm sure you have many wonderful and interesting things to contribute, but I find it very difficult to understand your ideas at all when written in this manner. Sorry if I'm just to dense too understand your unique writing style!

aji

I love that!

Magi728

[ Magi,

Might I suggest that you use more standard punctuation in your posts?]




Sure Fadl, I will do my best to satisfy your needs. Nor do I think your
dense, Or anyone else here. It is a long and bad habbit,on my part.


Love to you.



Magi.......

Emilia

Hey, I figured the worst thing that might happen is mom might give me some much-needed advice.

Timothy248

Ruby I didn't believe in Baha'i before meeting my partner, otherwise I would've been more careful, however our relationship is very strong regardless of our spiritual conflict, and she has decided to go to a Ruhi study group with me!

Thanks Magi, revelations 3:12 is a very powerful quote I was unaware of, but I will be careful to only use these quotes at the appropriate time and not be disrespectful of their beliefs.

Emilia

Timothy, to the extent your future mil understands in what high esteem we hold Christ and in what terms Baha'i Writings describes Him, that may also aid in understanding.

I have always been fond of this particular passage:

Magi728

[ Thanks Magi, revelations 3:12 is a very powerful quote I was unaware of, but I will be careful to only use these quotes at the appropriate time and not be disrespectful of their beliefs]


Yes. Tim and your very welcome. And I Agree about the appropriate time.

There are many other Relevant quotes from the bible that could activate them.


Keep us Updated.


With Love,




Magi.......

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timothy248 Thanks Magi; Revelations 3:12 is a very powerful quote I was unaware of....

Please don't forget also Revelations 2:17 and in the Jewish scriptures, Isaiah 62:2 and 65:15!

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Napkin

religious issues can destroy a marriage. I suggest you and his mother both calm down and focus on your marriage rather than your religion.

light upon light

Timothy,

You've indicated that your fiancee is actively hostile to the Baha'i Faith, and (presumably) believes that it is a cult influenced by Satan.

I'd suggest you choose which is more important to you, your fiancee or Baha'u'llah. Because trying to manage both of them in your life is not likely to work (I speak from personal experience here), especially once you have children.

It would be a very different situation if she were a Christian with beliefs like Yeshua, who respects Baha'u'llah.

Best of luck to you.

mytmouse57

I don't think anybody can be "converted" to the Baha'i Faith.

It comes in terms of internal realization.

smaneck

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions about this girl. It is her mother that apparently sees the Baha'i Faith as satanic and the girl is just confused and afraid. If Timothy follows Baha'i marriage laws I think everything will work out for the best. When and if he asks the girl's mother for consent she is going to decide whether or not she can live with her daughter being married to a non-Christian. If she decides she can, this will go a long way towards increasing receptivity on the part of both the daughter and mother if. She decides she can't, well the marriage probably would not work out anyhow.

light upon light

Makes a lot of sense.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timothy248 My fiancee'smother believes Baha'i is a false religion.

Timolhy, you might try showing them this.

(BTW, I agree that you should think in terms of "coverting" anyone: what we do is teach people; then they make their own decisions.)

Regards, :-)

Bruce
_ _ _ _ _

Based on Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan, here are the criteria for determining "cults":

1. How new members are found.

Dangerous Cults: With many cults, you don't get to know what you are getting into until after you have made a commitment.

Baha'i Faith: What you see is what you get: there are no secrets.


2. How funding is obtained.

Dangerous Cults: Commercial operations and/or mandatory donations (often large percentages) by members.

Baha'i Faith: Has no commercial businesses, collection plates are never passed, and donations are completely voluntary and accepted from enrolled members only.


3. Charismatic central figure.

Dangerous Cults: Cults usually have a central living figure who often lives on income from adherents.

Baha'i Faith: There is no living central figure in the Baha'i Faith (and there has been none since 1957); government is by bodies freely elected from the membership. There is no clergy, paid or unpaid.


4. Investigation of truth.

Dangerous Cults: Members are often told that it is dangerous to investigate other religions.

Baha'i Faith: Baha'is are encouraged to investigate all religions, and to appreciate truth no matter where it is found.


5. Behavior control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Persons may be told where to live, what to wear, or what (and how much) to eat. Sleep and freedom to travel or move about may be limited.

Baha'i Faith: Baha'is do not live in communes, but in the world as normal individuals and families. They wear no special or required clothing. The religion has no food requirements other than abstaining from alcohol, and the annual nineteen-day fast during which food and drink is not consumed during daylight hours only. Baha'is may get as much sleep as they want, eat whatever they want, work and live where they want.


6. Thought control as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: There is often use of "thought-stopping" techniques such as chanting or speaking in tongues for long periods of time, setting up a type of hypnotic atmosphere.

Baha'i Faith: Chanting and prayer are not prolonged, nor is their intent to block thought. There is no speaking in tongues. Thought and investigation are encouraged.


7. Emotional control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Guilt and fear are often used to control members, including alternating praise and public humiliation or forced confession, and indoctrination against leaving the group.

Baha'i Faith: Confession to and humiliation of others are forbidden. Members are free to leave the Faith at any time if they so choose, without stigma.


8. What happens when people leave the religion.

Dangerous Cults: People who leave cults are often considered to be dangerous and are usually shunned.

Baha'i Faith: Baha'is are generally permitted and encouraged to remain friends with people who leave. The only exception is in the case of a person declared to be a "Covenant breaker" by the Universal House of Justice due to an attempt to split the Baha'i Faith. There is no condemnation of those who voluntarily choose to leave.

o O o

* Hassan, Steven, Combating Cult Mind Control, Park Street Press, One Park Street, Rochester, Vermont 05767, 1988, ISBN 0-89281-311-3. "The Four Components of Mind Control", pages 59-67.